Hop's Not Going Anywhere...

[JimBoston]

Although Seattle is more expensive to live in than Syracuse, there is no state income tax in Washington.

As for top jobs, Syracuse is a top job, but it is hard for s school to remain a top job in a conference with two top four programs in Duke and North Carolina. It will be hard for Syracuse to consistently win ACC basketball tournament championships. Syracuse has gone to two Final Fours in the past 7 seasons, but Syracuse hasn't won a conference basketball tournament championship in 14 years. Top programs win their conference tournament on a consistent basis.

Syracuse had to go to the ACC, but the ACC is now the strongest basketball conference and it will be hard to even be one of the top 4 teams in the ACC on a consistent basis. Look at Villanova. They were probably the 5th best program in the old Big East (recent years) after Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, and Louisville. When the heavy weight teams left the Big East, Villanova started to dominate and winning resulted in more winning and better recruits. Now, they are considered a top 10 program with two recent national championships. And, they have had higher ranked recruiting classes than Syracuse the past 3 seasons. Nova may have had a higher ranked class in one season in the past, but never three years in a row.

 

[Townie72]

Unfortunately all these reasons you all are giving on why SU is or isn't a Top 10 program will have little to do with who we are able to hire as JB's successor.

Even if we agree SU is a Top 5 or 10 program 20 program, it doesnt matter. This isn't a case where coaches take new jobs just based on some goofy fan-developed ranking of programs. (As in "Oh! I am at the #22 program now and this is the # 9 program, so I better apply")

The right questions to ask include:

What are the expectations going to be? How much winning am I going to have to do and what's the time frame I will be given to accomplish that. (And what happens if I don't?)

What's the likelihood I will be able to meet or exceed the expectations? Is this an achievable task?

How long will it take to put my system in, to get my players in place, to get the assistants I feel I need? (How hard will it be to purge the old regime assistants that are there now. How much negative feelings will this engender?

Am I going to be accepted there? Will I always be in Boeheim's shadow. Are there things in my past that start me off on the wrong foot. (Pasqaloni being a Penn State grad didn't help him as there was still a lot of PSU hatred lingering from the 1960s and early 70's)

If doing better than Boeheim did, even in the last year's of his tenure, is the minimum requirement, than I'd say the SU job may be unattractive. The expectations start off being too high, especially if there's a lot of transition in strategies and players required.

Barbers came into a completely different situation. He had a system that he had great confidence in that had been successful at two other places. Expectations were reasonable. In fact, as Wildhack said, Babers exceeded them on an accelerated schedule.

 

[Sherman20]

When you have the best facilities and the biggest attendance and the tradition that Syracuse has then yes it's a top 5-10 job. smh

In no particular order...

UNC
Duke
Kansas
Kentucky
UCLA
Michigan
Villanova
Michigan St.
Indiana
Louisville

This is obviously subjective. Some of the criteria that I used were fan support, program history, AD support/investment in program, national stature.

I don't think anyone can argue UK, KU, UNC and Duke are all superior coaching jobs to SU.

UCLA and Indiana are once proud "franchises" that have fallen on difficult times but have proven capable of reaching a final four across different generations with different coaching staffs. I can see why some would argue SU is better but these jobs don't have the added burden of replacing a legend that SU does (that goes against SU IMO).

Michigan is rolling in cash and has history equal to SU. It's a national brand with tremendous fan support and multiple coaches have taken it to a FF. MSU is also a national brand with multiple titles won by different coaches. Ditto Louisville and Villanova (multiple titles won by different coaches over different eras).

I tried to look at it from a coaching candidates point of view. Assuming the next coach doesn't completely crater the program (i.e. Grob) then I think replacing JB's replacement is likely a top 10 job (also assuming we're still drawing 20k to games).

That’s a decent list, though we’re better than Nova. Non P5 programs don’t have the resources to compete with P5 schools. I would put us and Arizona ahead of or right on par with MSU. Fan base is key. But because of the Dome we can monetize our fan base and revenue at an exponential rate. And there’s no real competition upstate for season ticket holder fan support and no pro sports teams.

 

[Sherman20]

In no particular order...

UNC
Duke
Kansas
Kentucky
UCLA
Michigan
Villanova
Michigan St.
Indiana
Louisville

This is obviously subjective. Some of the criteria that I used were fan support, program history, AD support/investment in program, national stature.

I don't think anyone can argue UK, KU, UNC and Duke are all superior coaching jobs to SU.

UCLA and Indiana are once proud "franchises" that have fallen on difficult times but have proven capable of reaching a final four across different generations with different coaching staffs. I can see why some would argue SU is better but these jobs don't have the added burden of replacing a legend that SU does (that goes against SU IMO).

Michigan is rolling in cash and has history equal to SU. It's a national brand with tremendous fan support and multiple coaches have taken it to a FF. MSU is also a national brand with multiple titles won by different coaches. Ditto Louisville and Villanova (multiple titles won by different coaches over different eras).

I tried to look at it from a coaching candidates point of view. Assuming the next coach doesn't completely crater the program (i.e. Grob) then I think replacing JB's replacement is likely a top 10 job (also assuming we're still drawing 20k to games).

This obsession that people have on here about the difficulty/impossibility of replacing a legend is absurd. It’s just not the case. You just have to make the right hire. Yes it doesn’t always work out but very often does. Izzo replaced Heathcoat and he was sitting right on his bench (Izzo even took the program to a new level). Painter replaced Keady at Purdue and Painter, a Purdue alum (like Hop at SU), has the program rolling like Keady did back in the day. Sean Miller basically took over for Lute at Arizona and they’re back to their usual regular season success—and tourney flameouts, LOL. (Yes, Kevin O’Neill was HC at Zona for a couple of years after Lute suddenly had to retire due to health reasons, but he was an emergency fill-in.) Louisville went from Crum to Pitino to Mack, who’s a great hire. Xavier, a very good non P5 level program, has made a long series of fantastic hires, because it’s a great place to coach and attracts great candidates. UNC made a bad hire with Doherty, but that was a short-lived blip that was quickly corrected. Kansas went from Larry Brown to Roy to Self. If a program is really good and has a great foundation and makes the right hire (and pays market rate), they’re usually fine.

 

[RF2044]

This obsession that people have on here about the difficulty/impossibility of replacing a legend is absurd. It’s just not the case. You just have to make the right hire. Yes it doesn’t always work out but very often does. Izzo replaced Heathcoat and he was sitting right on his bench (Izzo even took the program to a new level). Painter replaced Keady at Purdue and Painter, a Purdue alum (like Hop at SU) has the program rolling like Keady did back in the day. Sean Miller basically took over for Lute at Arizona and they’re back to their usual regular season success—and tourney flameouts, LOL. (Yes, Kevin O’Neill was HC at Zona for a couple of years after Lute suddenly had to retire due to health reasons, but he was an emergency fill-in.) Louisville went from Crum to Pitino to Mack, who’s a great hire. Xavier, a very good non P5 level program, has made a long series of fantastic hires, because it’s a great place to coach and attracts great candidates. UNC made a bad hire with Doherty, but that was a short-lived blip that was quickly corrected. Kansas went from Larry Brown to Roy to Self. If a program is really good and has a great foundation and makes the right hire (and pays market rate), they’re usually fine.

The key is going out and getting the best candidate for the job, and not putting artificial constraints on who the candidates should be.

Make the best hire you can, and the rest takes care of itself.

 

[PhatOrange]

In no particular order...

UNC
Duke
Kansas
Kentucky
UCLA
Michigan
Villanova
Michigan St.
Indiana
Louisville

This is obviously subjective. Some of the criteria that I used were fan support, program history, AD support/investment in program, national stature.

I don't think anyone can argue UK, KU, UNC and Duke are all superior coaching jobs to SU.

UCLA and Indiana are once proud "franchises" that have fallen on difficult times but have proven capable of reaching a final four across different generations with different coaching staffs. I can see why some would argue SU is better but these jobs don't have the added burden of replacing a legend that SU does (that goes against SU IMO).

Michigan is rolling in cash and has history equal to SU. It's a national brand with tremendous fan support and multiple coaches have taken it to a FF. MSU is also a national brand with multiple titles won by different coaches. Ditto Louisville and Villanova (multiple titles won by different coaches over different eras).

I tried to look at it from a coaching candidates point of view. Assuming the next coach doesn't completely crater the program (i.e. Grob) then I think replacing JB's replacement is likely a top 10 job (also assuming we're still drawing 20k to games).

Really, after Duke, UNC, Kentucky and UCLA you can throw a dart. Syracuse is definitely in the top10 by every measure.

 

[ForCuseSake]

This obsession that people have on here about the difficulty/impossibility of replacing a legend is absurd. It’s just not the case. You just have to make the right hire. Yes it doesn’t always work out but very often does. Izzo replaced Heathcoat and he was sitting right on his bench (Izzo even took the program to a new level). Painter replaced Keady at Purdue and Painter, a Purdue alum (like Hop at SU), has the program rolling like Keady did back in the day. Sean Miller basically took over for Lute at Arizona and they’re back to their usual regular season success—and tourney flameouts, LOL. (Yes, Kevin O’Neill was HC at Zona for a couple of years after Lute suddenly had to retire due to health reasons, but he was an emergency fill-in.) Louisville went from Crum to Pitino to Mack, who’s a great hire. Xavier, a very good non P5 level program, has made a long series of fantastic hires, because it’s a great place to coach and attracts great candidates. UNC made a bad hire with Doherty, but that was a short-lived blip that was quickly corrected. Kansas went from Larry Brown to Roy to Self. If a program is really good and has a great foundation and makes the right hire (and pays market rate), they’re usually fine.

Purdue and Zona are examples of the legend sticking around too long and damaging the program - both left under NCAA violations. Crum was forced out by Jurich specifically to bring in Pitino (and Pitino's tenure ended under NCAA violations).

I wouldn't call any of the scenarios above a smooth transition and I hope that's not how things go for SU. Judd Heathcote fought for Izzo to get the job and they're lucky he was right. I can't imagine this place if JB hand-picked his successor (e.g Autry) and he has a few losing seasons.

I don't think it's impossible to replace the legend. I think it's extremely difficult and that the odds are low JB's replacement maintains the level of success the fanbase wants.

UNC and KU are a level above so I don't put much stock in their examples either way (Smith to Guthridge to Doherty to Roy/Brown to Roy to Self).

Edit - Brown left KU amid NCAA violations too.

 

[RF2044]

I don't think it's impossible to replace the legend. I think it's extremely difficult and that the odds are low JB's replacement maintains the level of success the fanbase wants.

True and false, IMO.

It is not easy to replace a legend. But the best way to ensure success is to not artificially constrain yourself by handcuffing yourself to predeterministic lists of candidates. We need to trust that the AD will do a thorough job, and vet the top candidates, and then make a decision based upon best fit. May the best candidate win the job.

The difficult challenge of replacing a coaching icon doesn't have to be an impossible one. Risk isn't all bad and shouldn't frighten people -- there can also be opportunity in risk.

 

[ForCuseSake]

After Duke, UNC, Kentucky and UCLA you can throw a dart.

Syracuse is in the top 14 for most ever Final Fours. 21 All Americans since Bing. Lead the nation in attendance, state of the art practice facility.


Really, after Duke, UNC, Kentucky and UCLA you can throw a dart. Syracuse is definitely in the top10 by every measure.

I see why you believe SU is a top 10 job and i think it's reasonable if others agree. I was asked to name 10 jobs I thought were better so I took a crack.

I try to look at the job's attractiveness from a prospective candidate's viewpoint. I don't know if I want to replace a legend unless he's crapped the bed sufficiently the past 3-5 years. Fan support is a double-edged sword - helps recruiting but can also significantly reduce my timeline to make changes.

The Dome is great. I don't think facilities move the needle as much in hoops recruiting as they do for football.

 

[ForCuseSake]

True and false, IMO.

It is not easy to replace a legend. But the best way to ensure success is to not artificially constrain yourself by handcuffing yourself to predeterministic lists of candidates. We need to trust that the AD will do a thorough job, and vet the top candidates, and then make a decision based upon best fit. May the best candidate win the job.

The difficult challenge of replacing a coaching icon doesn't have to be an impossible one. Risk isn't all bad and shouldn't frighten people -- there can also be opportunity in risk.

Yeah, I'm not fearful of the transition and I think Wildhack will make the correct decision. I just expect it to be a very bumpy transition regardless of the best efforts/intentions of all involved.

 

[ForCuseSake]

That’s a decent list, though we’re better than Nova. Non P5 programs don’t have the resources to compete with P5 schools. I would put us and Arizona ahead of or right on par with MSU. Fan base is key. But because of the Dome we can monetize our fan base and revenue at an exponential rate. And there’s no real competition upstate for season ticket holder fan support and no pro sports teams.

Most non-P5 programs don't have resources ($$) to compete but clearly Villanova does.

Everything about monetizing our fan base is great for an AD but may not matter as much to an incoming coach. Basketball isn't quite the cash gobbler that football is which is why mid majors can reach final fours and compete for titles. Not as consistently as P5 schools but it's more probable today than 15 years ago.

 

[Sherman20]

Purdue and Zona are examples of the legend sticking around too long and damaging the program - both left under NCAA violations. Crum was forced out by Jurich specifically to bring in Pitino (and Pitino's tenure ended under NCAA violations).

I wouldn't call any of the scenarios above a smooth transition and I hope that's not how things go for SU. Judd Heathcote fought for Izzo to get the job and they're lucky he was right. I can't imagine this place if JB hand-picked his successor (e.g Autry) and he has a few losing seasons.

I don't think it's impossible to replace the legend. I think it's extremely difficult and that the odds are low JB's replacement maintains the level of success the fanbase wants.

UNC and KU are a level above so I don't put much stock in their examples either way (Smith to Guthridge to Doherty to Roy/Brown to Roy to Self).

Edit - Brown left KU amid NCAA violations too.

You’re cherry-picking facts to make what point exactly. I think you’re trying to say transitions are bumpy. But guess what? That’s what we’re going through right now—the bumpy transition at the end of the JB era.

Also, your facts aren’t even right. Keady and Olson didn’t leave because of NCAA violations. Lute had a stroke that led to depression and impaired judgment and erratic behavior. He took a year long leave of absence then abruptly retired at the beginning of the the following season. It was a saga well documented in the media. The NCAA violations that later came out were minor and had no bearing on his retirement. Miller turned things around almost immediately.

Keady had minor NCAA violations in the late 90s, but that was 7-8 years before he retired. Keady retired because the program was mired in several mediocre seasons (worse than ours but not terrible until the very end). He and the AD saw the end was coming, that he wasn’t able to recruit at the same level. So they installed Painter, a protege, former player and then head coach at Southern Illinois, as the season-long head coach designate. Keady coached one more season before retiring, with Painter as associate head coach. Painter promptly had big recruiting wins on the trail and Purdue was quickly back near the top of the Big 10. That’s not a bad transition by any stretch, other than a few years of mediocre finishes at the end of Keady’s reign. We’re living through that right now! Painter was the right choice for Purdue to continue their success. We need to make a similar choice. Hop being the obvious answer.

 

[ForCuseSake]

You’re cherry-picking facts to make what point exactly. I think you’re trying to say transitions are bumpy. But guess what? That’s what we’re going through right now—the bumpy transition at the end of the JB era.

Also, your facts aren’t even right. Keady and Olson didn’t leave because of NCAA violations. Lute had a stroke that led to depression and impaired judgment and erratic behavior. He took a year long leave of absence then abruptly retired at the beginning of the the following season. It was a saga well documented in the media. The NCAA violations that later came out were minor and had no bearing on his retirement. Miller turned things around almost immediately.

Keady had minor NCAA violations in the late 90s, but that was 7-8 years before he retired. Keady retired because the program was mired in several mediocre seasons (worse than ours but not terrible until the very end). He and the AD saw the end was coming, that he wasn’t able to recruit at the same level. So they installed Painter, a protege, former player and then head coach at Southern Illinois, as the season-long head coach designate. Keady coached one more season before retiring, with Painter as associate head coach. Painter promptly had big recruiting wins on the trail and Purdue was quickly back near the top of the Big 10. That’s not a bad transition by any stretch, other than a few years of mediocre finishes at the end of Keady’s reign. We’re living through that right now! Painter was the right choice for Purdue to continue their success. We need to make a similar choice. Hop being the obvious answer.

I apologize for not googling Purdue and Arizona NCAA violations at the tail end of Keady's and Olson's tenure. You used these programs as examples of successful transitions from longtime successful coach to younger replacement. I used a vague recollection of NCAA scandals in the end of both Keady's and Olson's tenure to say the legend stuck around too long and damaged the program.

As you acknowledge in your first post that mentioned Arizona, Miller didn't replace Olson. So I guess we're both "cherry-picking facts."

Regardless, neither Painter or Miller have brought Purdue or Arizona to the post-season height Keady and Olson achieved.

You think it's absurd to be concerned about replacing JB. I think Wildhack has a very difficult balancing act to replace Jim Boeheim. There are plenty of examples across sports of similar transitions, navigated by experienced decision makers, that have gone poorly.

My point is that however attractive the SU job might be (top 5, top 10, top 20) doesn't increase the probability of successfully replacing Jim Boeheim.

We disagree regarding the frequency with which legends are successfully replaced. You think it happens very often. I think it's exceedingly rare. I'm not fearful for SU; I think it'll eventually sort itself out.

 

[JaySU22]

Of all the schools with legendary coaches we should have one of the easier transitions.

With “only” one national championship we have an appreciation for how hard they’re to get so we won’t be booting anyone if they only make it to the second weekend of the tournament.

A subset of the fanbase has complicated feelings towards JB and doesn’t think he walks on water so that dynamic could make it a bit easier on the next guy in that some will be excited for a change.

The last 5 years of bubble-ish seasons have recalibrated expectations.

 

[NKR1978]

It's funny, Nebraska is going after Fred Hoiberg and some of our fans seem to think we'll be scraping the bottom of the barrel for a JB replacement. Obviously Nebraska is an incredible job that has coaches beating down the door for it. There's no way lowly Syracuse can compete with the history and tradition of Nebraska Basketball.

Nebraska parts ways with Miles, eyes Hoiberg

 

[Townie72]

It's funny, Nebraska is going after Fred Hoiberg and some of our fans seem to think we'll be scraping the bottom of the barrel for a JB replacement. Obviously Nebraska is an incredible job that has coaches beating down the door for it. There's no way lowly Syracuse can compete with the history and tradition of Nebraska Basketball.

Nebraska parts ways with Miles, eyes Hoiberg

Isn't Hoiberg from Nebraska? He played at Iowa State and is looking for a job.

That's hardly a stretch for Nebraska.

 

[FrancoPizza]

The last 5 years of bubble-ish seasons have recalibrated expectations.

Fans don't want to be a perennial bubble team. That's not crazy or unrealistic and shouldn't scare off top coaches who know how to recruit and run a system.

 

[NKR1978]

Isn't Hoiberg from Nebraska? He played at Iowa State and is looking for a job.

That's hardly a stretch for Nebraska.

He's a great coach who could have his pick of jobs.

 

[Horn88]

Of all the schools with legendary coaches we should have one of the easier transitions.

With “only” one national championship we have an appreciation for how hard they’re to get so we won’t be booting anyone if they only make it to the second weekend of the tournament.

A subset of the fanbase has complicated feelings towards JB and doesn’t think he walks on water so that dynamic could make it a bit easier on the next guy in that some will be excited for a change.

The last 5 years of bubble-ish seasons have recalibrated expectations.

Agree, the Syracuse job is going to be a coveted job. The task will, IMO atleast, be more closely resembling one of re-energizing and wake the sleeping giant back up as opposed to having sky high unrealistic expectations and that can be pretty appealing.

I think this is the biggest thing that people overlook when discussing expectations is our recent performance. They wouldn't be taking over in 2014 and have to sustain the incredible level of success we were experiencing. They'd be taking over a program that will probably have a lot of "program" players to work with instead of a roster hit by early departures and probably a team that will have been on the bubble or 8+ seed line for 5-8 years running.

It's still located near plenty of deep recruiting pools, still playing in one of the more well known venues in the sport with incredible crowds, still in a great conference, still has history to sell, among other draws. There's a lot to like for someone that wants their chance to try and make a name for themselves.

 

[Horn88]

He's a great coach who could have his pick of jobs.

But if he grew up in the midwest and played and coached in the midwest then maybe his pick of job will be at the flagship school of the midwestern state he grew up in.

Agree though that it would be a steal for Nebraska.

 

[AZOrange]

Then how did Hopkins get Stewart, Quade Green and maybe Jaden McDaniels to go there?

Because he’s got a personality that you’d run into a burning building for

 

[AZOrange]

He's a great coach who could have his pick of jobs.

I’d like to see a longer run before I call him great. He had 2 good seasons at ISU and two really good ones. His NBA career was a disaster. Let’s see how the next 5 years goes. This is a step down for him.

 

[PhatOrange]

choice of living in seattle or syracuse seems a no brainer. especially if you grew up west coast.

He grew up in Los Angeles, so he's back on the West Coast 30 years later and still 1200 miles from where he actually grew up.

 

[orangecuse]

Because he’s got a personality that you’d run into a burning building for

Yeah, but can he get them to jump off a bridge?

 

[ORRange]

Because he’s got a personality that you’d run into a burning building for

Absolutely. One of the best couples I've ever had the pleasure of working for. Wonderful people.