How does Dino fix the running game? | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

How does Dino fix the running game?

Get a new OL coach

Team is going to return 5 guys that have started multiple games in their career, none seniors in terms of eligibility, six if Servais returns.

No four stars, but kids with good frames that need development

Bergeron and Tisdale have been starters and I don’t believe either has been through an off season program here. Bleich has had extended time to recover from his injury

My guess is the team would benefit from a new coach along with better health on the two deep
 
Are you aware that Addazio routinely recruited at the bottom of the ACC for Oline? We recruited better(by about 1 point in the grading system.) Addazio coached them up.. Marrone coached our guys up. Oline is coaching and developement. They all need work coming in.
No, I’m not. You may be right. You’re talking recruiting rankings, right? All I see is BC turns out linemen to the nfl more than we do. And my uninformed perception is that when we go head to head with BC for an OL guy, we lose. This has been going on long before Addazio... long before Babers. Literally decades. Are you saying BC consistently hires coaches who are better at developing linemen ?
 
No, I’m not. You may be right. You’re talking recruiting rankings, right? All I see is BC turns out linemen to the nfl more than we do. And my uninformed perception is that when we go head to head with BC for an OL guy, we lose. This has been going on long before Addazio... long before Babers. Literally decades. Are you saying BC consistently hires coaches who are better at developing linemen ?
Recruiting ranking wise, yes, Babers had higher ranked linemen than Addazio- by average. Addazio is a good line coach, and his system demanded a well coached line. Linemen are made, imo. So he coached em up.. Lowest graded line recruits in the ACC, to the #1 oline in the ACC in 2019. Coaching.

Addazio sending linemen to the NFL, is also because his system translates to it very well. Marrone was a good oline coach, so he sent a 2 star trex to the NFL, here.

Most olinemen out of HS need developement. If you're good at that, you'll have a good oline,imo.
 
Recruiting ranking wise, yes, Babers had higher ranked linemen than Addazio- by average. Addazio is a good line coach, and his system demanded a well coached line. Linemen are made, imo. So he coached em up.. Lowest graded line recruits in the ACC, to the #1 oline in the ACC in 2019. Coaching.

Addazio sending linemen to the NFL, is also because his system translates to it very well. Marrone was a good oline coach, so he sent a 2 star trex to the NFL, here.

Most olinemen out of HS need developement. If you're good at that, you'll have a good oline,imo.
How do you explain the last 30 years of success with OL when compared with Syracuse?
 
Recruiting ranking wise, yes, Babers had higher ranked linemen than Addazio- by average. Addazio is a good line coach, and his system demanded a well coached line. Linemen are made, imo. So he coached em up.. Lowest graded line recruits in the ACC, to the #1 oline in the ACC in 2019. Coaching.

Addazio sending linemen to the NFL, is also because his system translates to it very well. Marrone was a good oline coach, so he sent a 2 star trex to the NFL, here.

Most olinemen out of HS need developement. If you're good at that, you'll have a good oline,imo.

It is weird you see the NFL teams complaining that the incoming OL rookies lack basic fundamentals. So this isn't an SU only issue. All this record O is happening as teams deemphasize the OL in college. If you are looking for the big play or trying to get the ball out quickly in space, you don't have to worry about consistency on the OL. They seem happy with HRs or KOs. But a school like ours can only get singles hitters so the OL is more important.

Top OL recruits are easy to ID and we aren't getting them anyway. But the rest of the recruits are a crap shoot. We could have a competitive advantage by actually getting a good OL coach who could develop kids. We need a guy like Addazio since we can't get by on skill position talent alone like everyone else is trying to do.
 
How do you explain the last 30 years of success with OL when compared with Syracuse?

Beats me,, but they had 4 top 25 seasons in the early 2000s. They were recruiting in the 30's. I seem to remember us not being very good in that time period. We've had 4 winning seasons since 2001.
 
How do you explain the last 30 years of success with OL when compared with Syracuse?

Style of play is a big factor. BC has had pound it out pro style Os for ever. It isn't a coincidence that schools like BC, Stanford, Iowa, Wisconsin are producing so many NFL OLmen. They take the time to actually develop the OL.

College FB has become going fast and getting as many plays in as possible. The need for NFL caliber OLmen is less. IMO we need to have an OL coach who can look at a 2 star kid and say give me 2 years with that kid and he will be a 4 star. Having a coach who can identify potential and the develop is so much more important at a school like SU.
 
It is weird you see the NFL teams complaining that the incoming OL rookies lack basic fundamentals. So this isn't an SU only issue. All this record O is happening as teams deemphasize the OL in college. If you are looking for the big play or trying to get the ball out quickly in space, you don't have to worry about consistency on the OL. They seem happy with HRs or KOs. But a school like ours can only get singles hitters so the OL is more important.

Top OL recruits are easy to ID and we aren't getting them anyway. But the rest of the recruits are a crap shoot. We could have a competitive advantage by actually getting a good OL coach who could develop kids. We need a guy like Addazio since we can't get by on skill position talent alone like everyone else is trying to do.
Absolutely. Spread/tempo lessens the importance of the oline- and the time required for developement. If that's not working, you're in big trouble.

The NFL prefers linemen from a pro type system. Spread/tempo players often lack building block fundamentals the NFL requires, so they have to teach them. Plenty on that here:

 
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Style of play is a big factor. BC has had pound it out pro style Os for ever. It isn't a coincidence that schools like BC, Stanford, Iowa, Wisconsin are producing so many NFL OLmen. They take the time to actually develop the OL.

College FB has become going fast and getting as many plays in as possible. The need for NFL caliber OLmen is less. IMO we need to have an OL coach who can look at a 2 star kid and say give me 2 years with that kid and he will be a 4 star. Having a coach who can identify potential and the develop is so much more important at a school like SU.
That’s an interesting take on it. I admit I don’t really understand the last sentence of the first paragraph. Are you saying that for 25 years we have had OL coaches here who don’t develop their players? What do they do all day? Play Yahtzee?
 
That’s an interesting take on it. I admit I don’t really understand the last sentence of the first paragraph. Are you saying that for 25 years we have had OL coaches here who don’t develop their players? What do they do all day? Play Yahtzee?

Magic Tricks
 
That’s an interesting take on it. I admit I don’t really understand the last sentence of the first paragraph. Are you saying that for 25 years we have had OL coaches here who don’t develop their players? What do they do all day? Play Yahtzee?

Here's some quotes from NFL guys,, that explain. The last quote is probably why the same blitz's beat us for 8 straight games last year, until they started figuring it out. We couldn't go fast, so we had to figure out some basics. If you go fast/spread you don't need to spend as much time on your oline.


"The spreads effect on the development of young linemen has grown impossible to ignore. “It’s building block stuff,” Falcons offensive line coach Chris Morgan says.

it’s eliminated the complexity that’s long been inherent to line play.

If you’re running a spread offense in the college game, almost nothing translates to the NFL.

By operating at such a ridiculously fast clip, college offenses have negated the importance of the blockers up front making specific identifications and picking up intricate blitzes.
 
Aren’t most colleges running done type if spread offenses these days?
 
Aren’t most colleges running done type if spread offenses these days?

I think most schools are having these issues. In ACC conference games:

2020
2 > 4 sacks per game (not SU BTW)
4 > 3.5 sacks
6 > 3 sacks
10 > 2.5 sacks

2019
1 > 4 sacks per game (SU was actually at 5)
3 > 3.5 sacks
5 > 3 sacks
9 > 2.5 sacks

Compared to when we first joined the ACC:
1 > 4 sacks per game
2 > 3.5 sacks
3 > 3 sacks
4 > 2.5 sacks

There have been a lot more sacks the last few years. So either decent OLmen are becoming extinct like true Cs in BBall, or the systems are making it hard to have a decent OL. Or some combo of both.
 
It's a long shot but if Texas fires Tom Herman then their OL coach Herb Hand becomes available. Well regarded and he's from Westmoreland, NY and played at Hamilton. Probably don't have enough $$$ for him.
It’s a lot cheaper (and easier to fundraise) to upgrade staff than to pay a buyout. These are the dollars we should be spending. Upgrade the infrastructure until you’re top third and then it’s an easier decision to pull the plug regardless of coach. I am not sure we are top 3rd in infrastructure though (Size of staff, athletic training/nutrition, football operations center etc).

All that said, Maddox will be the guy we bring in. Has been with Gilbert everywhere he has been except this year. Gilbert even turned down the Texas job until they relented and let him bring Maddox with him. Maddox was also with Gilbert/DB at Bowling Green and at E Illinois
 
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Aren’t most colleges running done type if spread offenses these days?
Many. In terms of the NFL, that means less developed. There are those in the NFL that say tempo will be less developed still, as they practice quantity over quality.

Oline Is about developement.
 
The offensive line will never lose importance in football. Our last two years are proof that you can't make up for weaknesses in the line with strengths elsewhere or style of play. You've got make first downs to control tempo. otherwise you're just punting faster. In 2018 we had 303 first downs to 258 for the opposition and went 10-3. In 2019 it was 239-283 and we went 5-7. This year it's 130-256 and we are 1-9.
 
Aren’t most colleges running done type if spread offenses these days?
Bingo. Most teams run spread. One example, ND currently has the best offensive line in my eyes. They are a spread team. Traditional pro teams like Bama LSU run spread and play fast. NFL teams are still going to draft them. Like what RandomGuy said. Its just makes it harder for NFL coaches to transition them in at first. Once they transition it evens out. Stances, techniques may have to be adjusted but it won't matter as much down the road. I would bet most NFL lineman come from teams that run spread because that's what most teams run. NFL is realizing that and adjusting their schemes and technique accordingly.
 
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Not sure I would want Macky at this time. For those down on Cav he has put guys in the NFL. I don't know if it's him or not. He is easy to blame but concepts are concepts. Is it Cavs fault his team doesn't have the strength to push dline off the line? Is it Cavs fault our receivers can't catch or our 2nd, 3rd and 4th string QBs can barely run an offense? Is it Cavs fault that Babers chose not to recruit oline harder? Are the injuries his fault? I am not saying he might not get his walking papers but I am also not sure blame falls on him 100%. Then again if the players are tuning him out and he has problems teaching that's different.


In a nutshell, it's that we really don't teach run blocking. As a previous poster said, it's basically a dive somewhere into the line, with zone blocking, where the runner looks for a hole.

It's old fashioned thinking, maybe, but when you can't overpower the guy across from you, offensive lines make up for it with trickery and misdirection.

This is what Ben Schwartzwalder was a genius at, with his unbalanced line, misdirection, trap blocks, etc.
This is also what DeLeone excelled at - traps, counters (i.e., the moldy old cross buck play), pulling guards, short-side toss, etc. You play smash mouth football, but you also employ trickery to keep people off balance.

Dino doesn't do any of this.
 
Does the scheme work against ACC level DTs?

Anything works when you have a top 1/3 of the ACC OL (which we will not realistically have often at SU). Nothing works when you have a bottom 1/3 OL (which we will have from time to time). We need to be able to run the ball well with a middle 1/3 OL. The last 2 years were bottom 1/3. Were Dino's 1st 2 years as well? 2018 seemed to be a decent OL but even then our running game was mediocre.

Is our failure to run the ball the last 5 years due to not having a middle 1/3 OL or is it partially scheme? Also we play against a lot of 3 man fronts in the ACC. How much of our issues stem from that? How much comes form not having a QB threat that keeps the D honest from crashing down on those inside runs?

An O HC should know more how important a decent OL is yet he under recruited it his first few years.


I think scheme has a lot to do with it. There is no real commitment to run blocking in this offense. Never has been. It's always been a "pass to set up the run" mentality, at least in theory.

But then Dino gets too conservative, and winds up calling runs on 70% of his first downs. Without any kind of blocking strategy beyond, "block the one in front of you".

There has never been great push with this offensive line, and seldom has there been decent pass protection. The only success this offense has had is when we move the pocket with rollouts, and have a mobile QB who is a threat to run.
 
Here's some quotes from NFL guys,, that explain. The last quote is probably why the same blitz's beat us for 8 straight games last year, until they started figuring it out. We couldn't go fast, so we had to figure out some basics. If you go fast/spread you don't need to spend as much time on your oline.


"The spreads effect on the development of young linemen has grown impossible to ignore. “It’s building block stuff,” Falcons offensive line coach Chris Morgan says.

it’s eliminated the complexity that’s long been inherent to line play.

If you’re running a spread offense in the college game, almost nothing translates to the NFL.

By operating at such a ridiculously fast clip, college offenses have negated the importance of the blockers up front making specific identifications and picking up intricate blitzes.


I think that the spread has, in general, made offensive line play more passive and reactive.
Most plays linemen start the play by taking a step back into coverage protection, rather than firing off the ball and hitting someone.

Football (and O Line play) traditionally was about hitting people, and using leverage, angles, etc., to move them to one side or the other to create a hole for the running back. So it used to be, "fire out, hit, and turn", or "fire out, hit and drive".

Traditional O line play had to account for defensive linemen and LBs in gaps not just from a pass protection / blitz pick-up perspective, but from the perspective of "where is the hole going to be? which guy(s) do we key on to create the hole?" - e.g., let's say the play is a dive in the hole between the center and guard.
The line reads begin with where the defenders are - is someone over the center (a NT), or is the center responsible for picking up the MLB? Will the center double team with a guard to take on one of the defensive tackles in a 4 man front to turn the DT and open the hole? Will there be a lead blocker hitting the hole to take out the MLB?

Now, the reads are all about blitz pick-up, not initial push or figuring out your blocking assignments for the second level of the defense. (Who picks up the LB? Who picks up the corner or safety if they are close to the line on the side of the run?)

That whole kind of traditional thinking seems 100 years old now, but it is the type of building blocks that these NFL personnel people are talking about, when they say what linemen need to learn when they get to the pros - all the old fashioned stuff.

If we want to fix the offensive line, we need to go back to basics. Go hit the blocking sled and push it around the field for a half hour at the start of practice, to get used to maintaining your blocks and driving your opponent backward with your push. Then go try it out live.

Learn how to push, before you learn how to yield.
 
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In a nutshell, it's that we really don't teach run blocking. As a previous poster said, it's basically a dive somewhere into the line, with zone blocking, where the runner looks for a hole.

It's old fashioned thinking, maybe, but when you can't overpower the guy across from you, offensive lines make up for it with trickery and misdirection.

This is what Ben Schwartzwalder was a genius at, with his unbalanced line, misdirection, trap blocks, etc.
This is also what DeLeone excelled at - traps, counters (i.e., the moldy old cross buck play), pulling guards, short-side toss, etc. You play smash mouth football, but you also employ trickery to keep people off balance.

Dino doesn't do any of this.
They have alot of gap plays ( traps, counters, G kick) but they stopped running them because they arent good at them. I saw guards whiffing on pulls earlier this year. Defenders were chasing down backside because were werent blocking down. There's a lot of run plays they scrapped. Maybe they felt this year's line only run particular plays well so they rocked with those.
 
They have alot of gap plays ( traps, counters, G kick) but they stopped running them because they arent good at them. I saw guards whiffing on pulls earlier this year. Defenders were chasing down backside because were werent blocking down. There's a lot of run plays they scrapped. Maybe they felt this year's line only run particular plays well so they rocked with those.


Well, they won't get good at those plays if they don't practice them. It take lots of repetition.

So Dino spends all this time teaching the skills position players a series of quick live reads that form the basis for most of our "play-frameworks". (I hesitate to call them plays ...)

But if the line doesn't know how to block, none of the rest of it matters. You can't throw the ball down the field if the line can't hold a block for 3 or 4 seconds.

You can't pick up a first down in short yardage if you don't teach those intricate bits of line play because they're too hard to teach, or take too much time away from the other things you think you want to do.

You can't do any of those "throw the ball around the field" plays if your line play is crap.
 

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