How does Dino fix the running game?

[money3189]

Well, they won't get good at those plays if they don't practice them. It take lots of repetition.

So Dino spends all this time teaching the skills position players a series of quick live reads that form the basis for most of our "play-frameworks". (I hesitate to call them plays ...)

But if the line doesn't know how to block, none of the rest of it matters. You can't throw the ball down the field if the line can't hold a block for 3 or 4 seconds.

You can't pick up a first down in short yardage if you don't teach those intricate bits of line play because they're too hard to teach, or take too much time away from the other things you think you want to do.

You can't do any of those "throw the ball around the field" plays if your line play is crap.

Well its hard to say they dont work on those things. Sometimes you work on things over and over and you are still not good at it. You have to find other things you do well based on what you have and what your kids can do. Every coach has to decide what to work on more or abandon. Or you won't be good at anything. I see many teams run same base run plays we run. The issue is the blocking itself. The blocking and chemistry within the untit. There's a disaconnect. Something is fundamentally off. We can't get a consistent push, D lines seem to consistently over power us, there are missed assignments on too many plays. I dont see that grit and nastinest you need to have within your unit. We need a change in culture.

 

[RandomGuy]

Right now, we are currently ranked
#123 in rushing yards per game.
#122 in yards per attemp -2.7 yarfs.

#118 points per game
#125 Offensive TDs
#124 QB sacks per game

Out of 127

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Well its hard to say they dont work on those things. Sometimes you work on things over and over and you are still not good at it. You have to find other things you do well based on what you have and what your kids can do. Every coach has to decide what to work on more or abandon. Or you won't be good at anything. I see many teams run same base run plays we run. The issue is the blocking itself. The blocking and chemistry within the untit. There's a disaconnect. Something is fundamentally off. We can't get a consistent push, D lines seem to consistently over power us, there are missed assignments on too many plays. I dont see that grit and nastinest you need to have within your unit. We need a change in culture.

I totally get this year being an issue but we have struggled to run the ball consistently all 5 years. We have seen the majority of our runs over that span be basic runs. IMO last year after the 2nd bye week was our best stretch of running the ball. So I guess there is hope that next year we can get back to that. But al those other games make it hard to believe.

The NC State game was particularly frustrating. We had 4 of our starters from last year playing plus Rhino at FB and couldn't run for 1 yard per carry vs a team that even after that game gives up more ypc than we do in conference play. And we did that with our best RB since Reyes. The full run scheme should have been available.

 

[money3189]

I totally get this year being an issue but we have struggled to run the ball consistently all 5 years. We have seen the majority of our runs over that span be basic runs. IMO last year after the 2nd bye week was our best stretch of running the ball. So I guess there is hope that next year we can get back to that. But al those other games make it hard to believe.

The NC State game was particularly frustrating. We had 4 of our starters from last year playing plus Rhino at FB and couldn't run for 1 yard per carry vs a team that even after that game gives up more ypc than we do in conference play. And we did that with our best RB since Reyes. The full run scheme should have been available.

Inside zone looks basic but its the most ran run play in football. Its most teams most successful play. Its just something schematically off with ours .I don't know what it is. Most of it is just our guys not being good up front but I think there is some technique issues that need to be altered. Its puzzling to me that we can be this bad upfront. Ive been dissecting it since Dino's tenure. He didn't have a issue running the ball at his other stops. He's had primarily a gap base run game mixed in with some inside/outside zone. He runs a lot of Iso with the TE/HB but there is less variation in that too. Not sure if that's Sterling or Dino. I think collectively they decided to run what they do best. That's what any coach would do. Nc State destroyed every run play they ran. Their guys up front was flat out better than ours. They controlled the LOS. Didn't matter what we ran. More doesn't mean better. You can put as much whip cream as you want but its still poop.

 

[RandomGuy]

Inside zone looks basic but its the most ran run play in football. Its most teams most successful play. Its just something schematically off with ours .I don't know what it is. Most of it is just our guys not being good up front but I think there is some technique issues that need to be altered. Its puzzling to me that we can be this bad upfront. Ive been dissecting it since Dino's tenure. He didn't have a issue running the ball at his other stops. He's had primarily a gap base run game mixed in with some inside/outside zone. He runs a lot of Iso with the TE/HB but there is less variation in that too. Not sure if that's Sterling or Dino. I think collectively they decided to run what they do best. That's what any coach would do. Nc State destroyed every run play they ran. Their guys up front was flat out better than ours. They controlled the LOS. Didn't matter what we ran. More doesn't mean better. You can put as much whip cream as you want but its still poop.

3 total rush yards. 25 attempts. Just over 1 inch per carry. I still don't want to believe that stat. Lol

 

[RandomGuy]

Nebraska. Lol

 

[money3189]

3 total rush yards. 25 attempts. Just over 1 inch per carry. I still don't want to believe that stat. Lol

That's gross. Again, it tells us how good of game nc state box players had. I have to watch it again but I think we had a numbers advantage on most of the run plays called. I do remember the safety #10 team cheating on run. He was flying into the box real fast. We should have ran more RPO's' on him.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Inside zone looks basic but its the most ran run play in football. Its most teams most successful play. Its just something schematically off with ours .I don't know what it is. Most of it is just our guys not being good up front but I think there is some technique issues that need to be altered. Its puzzling to me that we can be this bad upfront. Ive been dissecting it since Dino's tenure. He didn't have a issue running the ball at his other stops. He's had primarily a gap base run game mixed in with some inside/outside zone. He runs a lot of Iso with the TE/HB but there is less variation in that too. Not sure if that's Sterling or Dino. I think collectively they decided to run what they do best. That's what any coach would do. Nc State destroyed every run play they ran. Their guys up front was flat out better than ours. They controlled the LOS. Didn't matter what we ran. More doesn't mean better. You can put as much whip cream as you want but its still poop.

Traditionally it was always easier to get a kid to run block than pass block. They are completely two different skill sets. It feels like more and more teams are going away from traditional run blocking which IMO causes more issues. These are 19-22 year old kids we should be having them think less not more. That goes for the WR routes as well.

It seems that there is less just going out there and hitting someone / being proactive and more blocking space / being reactive. It is great when you have a good OL but when you don't we see 3 yard rushing games. The scheme isn't a problem is you get the kids to play it. At SU can we get the guys to play it? if not the the scheme is part of the problem.

I also find it weird how we get our line assignments in. Traditionally you would have the C (or if inexperienced the G) call out the blocking. There was a diagnosis on the LOS and communication between the linemen. Now they listen for the RB's call that he gets from the sideline. That doesn't take into account pre snap movement and doesn't get everyone on the same page. Less communication is a bad thing. If you are trying to go fast none of that matters. There isn't time to communicate and the D is stuck in base. But when you aren't going fast or lack talent, it is a big deal IMO.

Going fast with the O we have seems like a mistake to me. We should want to slow things down make sure that our kids understand their assignments and take some time off the clock so our D can rest. If we are clicking by all means go fast. But we haven't clicked much the last 22 games. I rather have 1:30 three and outs vs 30 second three and outs.

I really think when we recruit we need to give all these O kids football IQ tests. That could give us a competitive advantage. I will take a slower WR who makes the right read 90% of the time over a faster WR who makes the wrong read 33% of the time. I will take an OL who gets beat physically but is in the position to make a play over an OL that blocks no one because they are confused. We need to get heady players because we will never out talent teams.

 

[money3189]

Traditionally it was always easier to get a kid to run block than pass block. They are completely two different skill sets. It feels like more and more teams are going away from traditional run blocking which IMO causes more issues. These are 19-22 year old kids we should be having them think less not more. That goes for the WR routes as well.

It seems that there is less just going out there and hitting someone / being proactive and more blocking space / being reactive. It is great when you have a good OL but when you don't we see 3 yard rushing games. The scheme isn't a problem is you get the kids to play it. At SU can we get the guys to play it? if not the the scheme is part of the problem.

I also find it weird how we get our line assignments in. Traditionally you would have the C (or if inexperienced the G) call out the blocking. There was a diagnosis on the LOS and communication between the linemen. Now they listen for the RB's call that he gets from the sideline. That doesn't take into account pre snap movement and doesn't get everyone on the same page. Less communication is a bad thing. If you are trying to go fast none of that matters. There isn't time to communicate and the D is stuck in base. But when you aren't going fast or lack talent, it is a big deal IMO.

Going fast with the O we have seems like a mistake to me. We should want to slow things down make sure that our kids understand their assignments and take some time off the clock so our D can rest. If we are clicking by all means go fast. But we haven't clicked much the last 22 games. I rather have 1:30 three and outs vs 30 second three and outs.

I really think when we recruit we need to give all these O kids football IQ tests. That could give us a competitive advantage. I will take a slower WR who makes the right read 90% of the time over a faster WR who makes the wrong read 33% of the time. I will take an OL who gets beat physically but is in the position to make a play over an OL that blocks no one because they are confused. We need to get heady players because we will never out talent teams.

You are just lookin at our offense and line and you are assuming everyone is having the same issues. Across the scope the run game has been as good as ever with the new blocking schemes and play designs. Zone blocking has opened it up for everyone There's not one NFL team that doesnt run zone. Some more than others. Just to point out a couple. Tennessee and Minnesota are great run teams that rely on zone concepts. Tempo is a different conversation. There's a lot of tempo teams that run the crap out of the ball. The core issue is the lineman, the coaching and strength development. Teams that run this same scheme is not this lethargic on offense.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

You are just lookin at our line and assuming everyone is having the same issues. Across the scope the run game has been as good as ever with the new blocking schemes and play designs. Zone blocking has opened it up for everyone There's not one NFL team that doesnt run zone. Some more than others. Just to point out a couple. Tennessee and Minnesota are great run teams that rely on zone concepts. Tempo is a different conversation. There's a lot of tempo teams that run the crap out of the ball. The core issue is the lineman, the coaching and strength development. Teams that run this same scheme is not this lethargic on offense.

I don't think the scheme in of itself is an issue. Getting the players to run the scheme is. If we can achieve that, great. If we cannot achieve that then shouldn't we adjust the scheme somewhat? Today's OL needs more athleticism and less mean SOBs. It won't be easy to get guys with athleticism to SU or have guys slip through the cracks. Finding an undersized mean SOB that you can bulk up by the time they are a RS Sophs seems more achievable at SU to me. But maybe I am wrong.

For WRs we can and should get undersized guys with speed like Brisley, Riley, Nykeim. For the other High School WR recruits I want guys like Lemon who will be open because of their route running and not athleticism. Then sprinkle in transfers like AET/Jackson who are kids we can't get out of HS but can via the portal.

 

[RandomGuy]

I don't think its SnC. Plenty of guys in the program have achieved outstanding results. Athleticism seems on par with other programs, and I'm not buying we have all the guys that lack football IQ.

Last year? So many times, 4 of 5 guys executed, and they all took turns making mistakes. Execution seems the ongoing issue.

 

[PhatOrange]

Here's some quotes from NFL guys,, that explain. The last quote is probably why the same blitz's beat us for 8 straight games last year, until they started figuring it out. We couldn't go fast, so we had to figure out some basics. If you go fast/spread you don't need to spend as much time on your oline.


"The spreads effect on the development of young linemen has grown impossible to ignore. “It’s building block stuff,” Falcons offensive line coach Chris Morgan says.

it’s eliminated the complexity that’s long been inherent to line play.

If you’re running a spread offense in the college game, almost nothing translates to the NFL.

By operating at such a ridiculously fast clip, college offenses have negated the importance of the blockers up front making specific identifications and picking up intricate blitzes.

I love how they make football sound like mechanical engineering. "complexity", "intricate blitzes" lol. Intricate is an exploded parts diagram on a lawnmower or an airplane.

 

[FasterCuse]

Traditionally it was always easier to get a kid to run block than pass block. They are completely two different skill sets. It feels like more and more teams are going away from traditional run blocking which IMO causes more issues. These are 19-22 year old kids we should be having them think less not more. That goes for the WR routes as well.

It seems that there is less just going out there and hitting someone / being proactive and more blocking space / being reactive. It is great when you have a good OL but when you don't we see 3 yard rushing games. The scheme isn't a problem is you get the kids to play it. At SU can we get the guys to play it? if not the the scheme is part of the problem.

I also find it weird how we get our line assignments in. Traditionally you would have the C (or if inexperienced the G) call out the blocking. There was a diagnosis on the LOS and communication between the linemen. Now they listen for the RB's call that he gets from the sideline. That doesn't take into account pre snap movement and doesn't get everyone on the same page. Less communication is a bad thing. If you are trying to go fast none of that matters. There isn't time to communicate and the D is stuck in base. But when you aren't going fast or lack talent, it is a big deal IMO.

Going fast with the O we have seems like a mistake to me. We should want to slow things down make sure that our kids understand their assignments and take some time off the clock so our D can rest. If we are clicking by all means go fast. But we haven't clicked much the last 22 games. I rather have 1:30 three and outs vs 30 second three and outs.

I really think when we recruit we need to give all these O kids football IQ tests. That could give us a competitive advantage. I will take a slower WR who makes the right read 90% of the time over a faster WR who makes the wrong read 33% of the time. I will take an OL who gets beat physically but is in the position to make a play over an OL that blocks no one because they are confused. We need to get heady players because we will never out talent teams.

You bring up a great point about the line assignments being called by the RB. Maybe I just noticed it more because it was different when Dino first arrived, but I remember Donte Strickland being much more vocal, and telling the lineman where to line up and calling out protections than the RBs the last 2 years.

 

[Bayside44]

How do you explain the last 30 years of success with OL when compared with Syracuse?

They recruit the same type of kid from the same schools...counted around 35 Catholic school kids on their team. Go back to the same schools, similar talent and coaching, and go.

Cast a net around SU and the biggies don't exist like they did.

 

[PhatOrange]

That's gross. Again, it tells us how good of game nc state box players had. I have to watch it again but I think we had a numbers advantage on most of the run plays called. I do remember the safety #10 team cheating on run. He was flying into the box real fast. We should have ran more RPO's' on him.

they went all in on stopping the run because they know how bad Rex is at passing. It's a no brainer defensive game plan.

 

[Orangello]

Right now, we are currently ranked
#123 in rushing yards per game.
#122 in yards per attemp -2.7 yarfs.

#118 points per game
#125 Offensive TDs
#124 QB sacks per game

Out of 127

Well, that's certainly consistent.

 

[syrBossHogg]

they went all in on stopping the run because they know how bad Rex is at passing. It's a no brainer defensive game plan.

Yeah on early downs in every game this year teams have been pressing us in man coverage and bringing a safety down to help take away the run. They don't have to worry about giving up the deep ball, although once in a while we did make them pay for it.

 

[money3189]

I don't think the scheme in of itself is an issue. Getting the players to run the scheme is. If we can achieve that, great. If we cannot achieve that then shouldn't we adjust the scheme somewhat? Today's OL needs more athleticism and less mean SOBs. It won't be easy to get guys with athleticism to SU or have guys slip through the cracks. Finding an undersized mean SOB that you can bulk up by the time they are a RS Sophs seems more achievable at SU to me. But maybe I am wrong.

For WRs we can and should get undersized guys with speed like Brisley, Riley, Nykeim. For the other High School WR recruits I want guys like Lemon who will be open because of their route running and not athleticism. Then sprinkle in transfers like AET/Jackson who are kids we can't get out of HS but can via the portal.

You make some good points. These players were recruited for this specific scheme. Wake doesnt have the same problems as us. I wouldn't mind more of a emphasis on bigger road grader type lineman. Just have to find some that can move at that weight. I think that's why there's an emphasis of bringing in leaner bodies to add weight onto. I want adjustments too but these players where recruited to play exactly in this scheme so it might be a set back before we see results. I do think they need to change some things. If there is a philosophy change then they will have to adjust techniques and approach. Its can definitely be done. I agree, we need transfers.

 

[money3189]

they went all in on stopping the run because they know how bad Rex is at passing. It's a no brainer defensive game plan.

Facts. Wish we had a QB that could at least make them play honest. It was crazy how fast those safeties were flying up.

 

[money3189]

Yeah on early downs in every game this year teams have been pressing us in man coverage and bringing a safety down to help take away the run. They don't have to worry about giving up the deep ball, although once in a while we did make them pay for it.

Yup, which makes it even harder for a a deficient offensive line to block.

 

[upperdeck]

so why was Dino always a run first coach in this offense if he doesnt value the run and why do we run so much now?

you need at least 1-2 oline guys that win most of the battles to run some place.. when you get more than that you dominate.. we have been stuck on 0-1 for years.. But it starts at center.. control the Nose/DT. You cant be less than OK at center and have a running or passing game.. I think at this point, if Servais wasnt playing hurt we would mostly ok in the passing game since that blocking has been better until teams send pressure. His being hurt meant we had to flip both tackle spots and that has meant DE speed rushing has killed us.

 

[upperdeck]

Facts. Wish we had a QB that could at least make them play honest. It was crazy how fast those safeties were flying up.

I thought NC st had the best safety play we saw all year,

 

[PhatOrange]

Facts. Wish we had a QB that could at least make them play honest. It was crazy how fast those safeties were flying up.

That #10 was pretty good. Kid seemed to be in on every tackle and crashed hard downhill seemingly at the snap. I kept hoping we would deek him and throw it over his head.

 

[orangeinohio]

I would be shocked if it wasn’t Matt Mattox. He’s been with Dino and Gilbert at multiple stops

This definitely makes sense.

He's supposedly one of Gilbert's best friends. He was OL coach with Sterlin at Eastern Illinois, Bowling Green, Tulsa, Texas, USF, and McNeese State. If Sterlin and Maddox didn't leave for Tulsa in 2015, they might have gone to Syracuse with Dino in 2016.

I'm not saying he's regarded as a hot coach. He's currently the OL coach at UT-San Antonio.
And he was with Charlie Strong during a bumpy time at USF.

But just based on relationships, this seems logical.

 

[RandomGuy]

This definitely makes sense.

He's supposedly one of Gilbert's best friends. He was OL coach with Sterlin at Eastern Illinois, Bowling Green, Tulsa, Texas, USF, and McNeese State. If Sterlin and Maddox didn't leave for Tulsa in 2015, they might have gone to Syracuse with Dino in 2016.

I'm not saying he's regarded as a hot coach. He's currently the OL coach at UT-San Antonio.
And he was with Charlie Strong during a bumpy time at USF.

But just based on relationships, this seems logical.

Mcneese ran for 2353 in 2019. We're at 1090.