How many of these guys will make an NBA roster?

[The General]

you have to think about spacing on the offensive end. for all the talk of CJ's improved mid range jumper, it really isn't there with any consistency. He is not an offensive threat outside of 8 feet. It is a given that two of Fab/Keita/Rak/DC2 will be starting. It doesn't make any sense to have another forward whose game is, at best, inside-out. You need JS in that spot in order to properly space the halfcourt offense.

CJ will have to make a quantum jump in his perimeter game for him to start. He will be the sixth man.

Hmm. You might be right. I'd argue that Southerland is only a threat when set up for a wide open shot and that CJ has improved his range but if the goal is just to create space than yes, you have to respect JSouth more than CJ on the outside.

If the goal is to put your best basketball player out there, it's CJ. And maybe it was out of necessity but we did start Pace at the 3 for 2 years. And he was 6'4 and had one of the worst J's I ever seen. Did Hak and Gmac have spacing issues?

Though JB did start Southerland last year when KJ when down for the reasons you stated. He was awful but I see the need.

 

[moqui]

Hmm. You might be right. I'd argue that Southerland is only a threat when set up for a wide open shot and that CJ has improved his range.

if you made that argument then you would be wrong on the first count and I would respond "not nearly enough" on the second count. James has shown a more varied game inside the arc than CJ has shown any consistent ability beyond 8 feet from the basket.

as far as Pace, the other personnel made a big difference, which is my entire point. there was only one other interior threat - Hak. Forth spent more time on the high post and setting picks on top than on the low post, so there was more room for Pace to operate alongside Hak.

If the goal is to put your best basketball player out there

the goal is and always will be to put the best team on the floor.

 

[AZOrange]

James has shown a more varied game inside the arc than CJ has shown any consistent ability beyond 8 feet from the basket.

I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying CJ has not shown any consistent ability beyond 8 feet? If so, I dont think that is a fair assessment of him. He has shown a very good range game up to about 15- feet or so. He has even added the 3 to his arsenal (shooting at a better clip than 3 of our 4 guards). He also has the ability to pull up off the bounce (which James really doesnt). However if you are just saying that CJ does not have James' range, I agree. But CJ is becoming a pretty darn complete player.

 

[The General]

if you made that argument then you would be wrong on the first count and I would respond "not nearly enough" on the second count. James has shown a more varied game inside the arc than CJ has shown any consistent ability beyond 8 feet from the basket.

He has? Where have I been? One dribble drive and foul against some other cupcake? And one nice hanging putback of an offensive rebound... If his teammates set him up from 14, yes, he makes it. So does CJ.

CJ has a consistent mid-range J from the baseline. Does he have great range? No. Is he money on the 14 footer from the baseline? Yup. To say CJ can't score consistently outside of 8 feet is just wrong.

Honestly, I understand your point about spacing. But to say I'm wrong about Southerland, is, well, wrong. He has done nothing to show that he is much more than a 3 point shooter. And he needs to be open. He's not jab stepping, or pump faking, dribbling and shooting. He needs to be set up.

Considering our issues rebounding, I prefer CJ. He creates scoring opportunities with his rebounding. He can put in on the floor, make a move and get the ball to the rim. Southerland stands and waits for someone to create scoring opportunities for him.

 

[moqui]

I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying CJ has not shown any consistent ability beyond 8 feet? If so, I dont think that is a fair assessment of him. He has shown a very good range game up to about 15- feet or so. He has even added the 3 to his arsenal (shooting at a better clip than 3 of our 4 guards). He also has the ability to pull up off the bounce (which James really doesnt). However if you are just saying that CJ does not have James' range, I agree. But CJ is becoming a pretty darn complete player.

CJ hits open shots on occasion, but he has not shown a consistent ability to hit the 15 footer, especially when guarded. Yes, he has hit some shots, but his percentage outside of 8 feet is not that good and not really appreciably better than last year. go back and look at the play by play from the past games and you will see that he is shooting about 70% on dunks, tips and layups, and about 30% on his jumpers. James, on the other hand, is hitting over well over 50% on his jumpers, has nailed as many dunks as CJ, and of course has the deep stroke. His assist rate is higher and he is tireless in setting picks and reversing the ball. He is a much more refined offensive player.

 

[The General]

...he is tireless in setting picks and reversing the ball.

Now that's funny.

 

[The General]

It's gonna depend on what we need game to game. CJ is our best rebounder. Southerland our best shooter. Offensively JSouth is def better. But CJ does much more on both ends.

This year CJ is second on the team in minutes. 24+. Southerland, 16+. Of course CJ is playing a lot of 4 in place of Rak. I prefer CJ but I understand why spacing is important and it might give JSouth the nod. But don't sell me on Southerland having some versatile inside -the-arc offensive game or CJ not being able to bang 14 foot jumpers.

 

[moqui]

But don't sell me on Southerland having some versatile offensive game or CJ not being able to bang 14 foot jumpers. CJ makes those. A lot.

I can't sell you if you are not buying, but go through the play by plays and count his misses and makes on the jumpers. his jump shot is not as good as you think it is. I like CJ, always have, and I think he is a very valuable contributor both now and in the future. but I also think syracusefan.com posters have overrated him.

look at this comparison between he and Dirty using the Pomeroy metrics:

on the offensive side of the ball, the only things that CJ does better are hit his foul shots and make offensive rebounds - and the offensive rebounding difference is not that large. On the defensive side of the ball, JS has a better block percentage and steal percentage, and they are tied on the defensive boards. CJ's overall totals are higher only because he is getting more minutes, and he is getting more minutes because he is a reasonable facsimile as a 4 and James can really only play when Joseph is out of the game. That won't be the case next year.

 

[Eric15]

With the new CBA teams will have to fill out rosters with cheap rookies to try to stay under the cap. Take a look at the Lakers. They have kept all four of their second round picks from the last two years. Ebanks, Goudlock, Morris, Caracter all made the roster.

Did anyone think that Ebanks would be an NBA starter? Wes Matthews?

Now, both those guys are better athletes than Fair. But CJ is only a Soph. If he's a legit 6'7, 6'8 and continues to progress, work on his range... couldn't he be a defensive minded 3 at next level? He rebounds well, has good feel, touch on his J, if he can play solid m2m, why can't he be a Barnes or Sefalosha or whatever?

Maybe he isn't quick/athletic enough. And if ur telling me he's 6'5 and not the listed 6'8, then forget it. But it's not gonna be about offense. Those players, their job is to D up, crash boards, get loose balls and hit the occasional wide open J. Every team needs those guys.

He'll be our starting 3 next year. We'll see. I still think he has an outside shot as a niche player.

Good post. I personally just don't see Fair's game translating to the NBA nor do I think he's in Barnes' league athletically, but time will tell.

 

[The General]

I can't sell you if you are not buying, but go through the play by plays and count his misses and makes on the jumpers. his jump shot is not as good as you think it is. I like CJ, always have, and I think he is a very valuable contributor both now and in the future. but I also think syracusefan.com posters have overrated him.

look at this comparison between he and Dirty using the Pomeroy metrics:

on the offensive side of the ball, the only things that CJ does better are hit his foul shots and make offensive rebounds - and the offensive rebounding difference is not that large. On the defensive side of the ball, JS has a better block percentage and steal percentage, and they are tied on the defensive boards. CJ's overall totals are higher only because he is getting more minutes, and he is getting more minutes because he is a reasonable facsimile as a 4 and James can really only play when Joseph is out of the game. That won't be the case next year.

Nice stats. But what do they tell us? He racked up a majority of those numbers vs. the Colgate's of the world. What would the Pomeroy stats for non-cupcake games be? In the big games this year, Va Tech, Stanford, Florida, NC State, he was awful in all but NC State. In games vs. non mid majors Fair has outplayed Southerland.

Florida- CJ 9 pts 11 rbs. JS 3, 0
Va Tech- CJ 10, 12 JS 0,1
Stanford- CJ 10, 5 JS 0,1
NC ST- CJ 11, 3 JS 11,3
Depaul- CJ 16, 5 (2 steals, 1 block) JS 8,4 (0,0)
Seton Hall- CJ 8, 9 (3 steals, 1 block) JS 8,5 (0,0)

CJ (28-52 54%, 1-4 from 3, 25%) 45 rb
JS (11-26 42%, 4-16 from 3 25%) 14 rb

If you look at Pomeroy both CJ and JS have 48 made baskets. 28 of CJ's 48 makes were vs. non-mid majors. 11 of JS's 48 makes were vs. non-mid majors. 11. I don't care if CJ is dunking, getting putbacks, whatever. He's putting the ball in the hoop vs. BCS/BE teams. Southerland's efficiency numbers are inflated by Albany, 'Gate, etc. If anything the numbers tell me that CJ has a knack for stepping up against better teams (28 makes in 6 BCS games vs. 20 in 9 cupcakes). And that JS (11 makes in 6 BCS, 37 in cakes) prefers to shoot over 6'2 guys from Hamilton. Plus CJ is our best rebounder, no question.

Now you can argue that CJ got more minutes. There is a reason Southerland had limited minutes against the OOC BCS conference teams. He was ineffective and got pulled. (Except for NC St.) My biggest fear with JS is that he has often folded against better competition.

So, like I said, it will be interesting to see how it all pans out at the end of the year. And maybe you are right, it's about spacing. And having a shooter out there. CJ needs range. JS, consistency vs good teams and to utilize his athleticism.

But the padded Pomeroy stats don't tell the whole story. Nor do mine. They should both really push each other for that spot next year.

 

[RF2044]

you have to think about spacing on the offensive end. for all the talk of CJ's improved mid range jumper, it really isn't there with any consistency. He is not an offensive threat outside of 8 feet. It is a given that two of Fab/Keita/Rak/DC2 will be starting. It doesn't make any sense to have another forward whose game is, at best, inside-out. You need JS in that spot in order to properly space the halfcourt offense.

CJ will have to make a quantum jump in his perimeter game for him to start. He will be the sixth man.

I know that Moqui knows this, but I'll obligatorily qualify my response by pointing out that I am not anti any of our players, or looking to prop one up and put down the other. I genuinely like both players we're discussing here--and I think both are going to be key factors in the team's performance, this year and next year. The purpose of this rebuttal is not to slam Southerland.

I love Southerland's offensive production, and his KenPom stats are impressive. But I complete disagree with some of the assessments I've seen of Fair's game in this thread. Here's an alternative scouting report:

He's a very similar player to KJ, only better at every phase of the game at this stage of his developmental curve than Joseph was when he was a sophomore. Every phase.

Fair is bigger. He's a better rebounder. He actually handles the ball very well, both in the open floor [which he hasn't shown much of yet--more on this later] and in half court sets. He's a better mid-range shooter now than KJ is as a senior. He's a better zone defender than KJ was at the same stage, in part because he works harder at it, in part because he's got tremendous basketball IQ, and in part because he's rangy and can cover a lot of ground. He's shown himself to be a threat from three--but clearly this is an area of his game that needs to improve, just like it needed to improve for KJ coming off of his sophomore season.

I want to highlight the basketball IQ comment above. Some players have "it" -- an innate feel for the game that simply can't be taught. It enables them to think two steps ahead and be in the right position to deflect passes or snare a rebound. CJ has "it." And being a smart player manifests this year in him deferring to the more experienced players this season instead of trying to do too much. People who don't think he can put the ball on the floor and create are going to be very, very surprised next season when they see him do it at will. It also means that he isn't forcing bad shots or trying to do too much. Next year, when he's a starter and main cog, he'll assume more of a role and shoulder a bigger load with respect to scoring. Right now, he's doing exactly what the team needs him to do, and playing within himself.

You and I have had discussions about the CJ / Southerland thing dating back into last year. And as you know, I'm not turning this into an anti-Dirty position. I'm impressed that's he rebounding better, doing a better job of defending, and finding ways to contribute even when his shot isn't dropping--something that he wasn't able to do last year. I just don't buy that he's the key to offensive balance and spacing the floor next season, just like I never bought that argument when people made it about Mookie the previous two years. Nor does the minutes distribution support that contention.

Here's hoping that Southerland is able to expand his game even further next season. And here's hoping that CJ does the same.

But at the end of the day, I think CJ is the better player. People weren't talking about KJ as an NBA prospect when he was a sophomore [hell...at the beginning of that year, there was actually a thread started by a board member claiming that KJ lacked the athleticism to ever be a contributor at the Big East level]. Then, coming off of his impressive sophomore year, people were pretty hung up on his inability to shoot threes consistently, until he silenced those critics as a junior. I think we're going to see a similar pattern with CJ. Spot player as frosh who earned minutes, 6th man / key contributor / role player as a soph, impact player / emergence as an NBA prospect as a junior and senior. And at the end of his career, a guy who is universally viewed as being better in every phase of the game than KJ, who is contending for first team all conference honors as a senior.

 

[RF2044]

Nice stats. But what do they tell us? He racked up a majority of those numbers vs. the Colgate's of the world. What would the Pomeroy stats for non-cupcake games be? In the big games this year, Va Tech, Stanford, Florida, NC State, he was awful in all but NC State. In games vs. non mid majors Fair has outplayed Southerland.

Florida- CJ 9 pts 11 rbs. JS 3, 0
Va Tech- CJ 10, 12 JS 0,1
Stanford- CJ 10, 5 JS 0,1
NC ST- CJ 11, 3 JS 11,3
Depaul- CJ 16, 5 (2 steals, 1 block) JS 8,4 (0,0)
Seton Hall- CJ 8, 9 (3 steals, 1 block) JS 8,5 (0,0)

CJ (28-52 54%, 1-4 from 3, 25%) 45 rb
JS (11-26 42%, 4-16 from 3 25%) 14 rb

If you look at Pomeroy both CJ and JS have 48 made baskets. 28 of CJ's 48 makes were vs. non-mid majors. 11 of JS's 48 makes were vs. non-mid majors. 11. I don't care if CJ is dunking, getting putbacks, whatever. He's putting the ball in the hoop vs. BCS/BE teams. Southerland's efficiency numbers are inflated by Albany, 'Gate, etc. If anything the numbers tell me that CJ has a knack for stepping up against better teams (28 makes in 6 BCS games vs. 20 in 9 cupcakes). And that JS (11 makes in 6 BCS, 37 in cakes) prefers to shoot over 6'2 guys from Hamilton. Plus CJ is our best rebounder, no question.

Now you can argue that CJ got more minutes. There is a reason Southerland had limited minutes against the OOC BCS conference teams. He was ineffective and got pulled. (Except for NC St.) My biggest fear with JS is that he has often folded against better competition.

So, like I said, it will be interesting to see how it all pans out at the end of the year. And maybe you are right, it's about spacing. And having a shooter out there. CJ needs range. JS, consistency vs good teams and to utilize his athleticism.

But the padded Pomeroy stats don't tell the whole story. Nor do mine. They should both really push each other for that spot next year.

Good post. Quick question: are you the artist formerly known as "General20?"

 

[Knicks411]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say CJ could be a defensive minded 3. He's basically played no m2m in college, let alone trying to check NBA 3's.

 

[Marsh01]

I know that Moqui knows this, but I'll obligatorily qualify my response by pointing out that I am not anti any of our players, or looking to prop one up and put down the other. I genuinely like both players we're discussing here--and I think both are going to be key factors in the team's performance, this year and next year. The purpose of this rebuttal is not to slam Southerland.

I love Southerland's offensive production, and his KenPom stats are impressive. But I complete disagree with some of the assessments I've seen of Fair's game in this thread. Here's an alternative scouting report:

He's a very similar player to KJ, only better at every phase of the game at this stage of his developmental curve than Joseph was when he was a sophomore. Every phase.

Fair is bigger. He's a better rebounder. He actually handles the ball very well, both in the open floor [which he hasn't shown much of yet--more on this later] and in half court sets. He's a better mid-range shooter now than KJ is as a senior. He's a better zone defender than KJ was at the same stage, in part because he works harder at it, in part because he's got tremendous basketball IQ, and in part because he's rangy and can cover a lot of ground. He's shown himself to be a threat from three--but clearly this is an area of his game that needs to improve, just like it needed to improve for KJ coming off of his sophomore season.

I want to highlight the basketball IQ comment above. Some players have "it" -- an innate feel for the game that simply can't be taught. It enables them to think two steps ahead and be in the right position to deflect passes or snare a rebound. CJ has "it." And being a smart player manifests this year in him deferring to the more experienced players this season instead of trying to do too much. People who don't think he can put the ball on the floor and create are going to be very, very surprised next season when they see him do it at will. It also means that he isn't forcing bad shots or trying to do too much. Next year, when he's a starter and main cog, he'll assume more of a role and shoulder a bigger load with respect to scoring. Right now, he's doing exactly what the team needs him to do, and playing within himself.

You and I have had discussions about the CJ / Southerland thing dating back into last year. And as you know, I'm not turning this into an anti-Dirty position. I'm impressed that's he rebounding better, doing a better job of defending, and finding ways to contribute even when his shot isn't dropping--something that he wasn't able to do last year. I just don't buy that he's the key to offensive balance and spacing the floor next season, just like I never bought that argument when people made it about Mookie the previous two years. Nor does the minutes distribution support that contention.

Here's hoping that Southerland is able to expand his game even further next season. And here's hoping that CJ does the same.

But at the end of the day, I think CJ is the better player. People weren't talking about KJ as an NBA prospect when he was a sophomore [hell...at the beginning of that year, there was actually a thread started by a board member claiming that KJ lacked the athleticism to ever be a contributor at the Big East level]. Then, coming off of his impressive sophomore year, people were pretty hung up on his inability to shoot threes consistently, until he silenced those critics as a junior. I think we're going to see a similar pattern with CJ. Spot player as frosh who earned minutes, 6th man / key contributor / role player as a soph, impact player / emergence as an NBA prospect as a junior and senior. And at the end of his career, a guy who is universally viewed as being better in every phase of the game than KJ, who is contending for first team all conference honors as a senior.

You and I have talked about this at length as well. From DAY ONE CJ has been in the "gets it" camp. Always in the right place, thinking like a chess player, 3 moves ahead. He anticipates better than anyone on this team and just has an incredible basketball IQ.

The fact that he has shown MAJOR improvement on his perimeter shooting should strike fear into every Big East/ACC team that we will face or possibly face in the next 2 years.

He will be a first team all-whatever conference we are in come 2 years from now. I know you and I said this from day 1 and I see no reason based on his play/progression to change my opinion now. I got laughed at when I made the comment that prior to his freshman year I was the highest on him out of any of the players coming in (Fab, Dion included).

 

[Chosen0ne]

It is easy to discount CJ Fair's potential because he does everything so quietly during the course of a game. He also (James too actually) has a sort of awkwardness im his movement that isn't as fluid or pretty. At the end of the day, he always gets the job done. If you have any doubt about his ability to step into KJ's role and take his play to another level, look no further than last year's Pittsburgh game sans KJ. He put up 16 and 9 in his first big minutes of the year and certainly surprised me. I think he could easily step in and succeeds as a 3 or 4.

 

[moqui]

If you look at Pomeroy both CJ and JS have 48 made baskets. 28 of CJ's 48 makes were vs. non-mid majors. 11 of JS's 48 makes were vs. non-mid majors. 11. I don't care if CJ is dunking, getting putbacks, whatever. He's putting the ball in the hoop vs. BCS/BE teams. Southerland's efficiency numbers are inflated by Albany, 'Gate, etc. If anything the numbers tell me that CJ has a knack for stepping up against better teams (28 makes in 6 BCS games vs. 20 in 9 cupcakes). And that JS (11 makes in 6 BCS, 37 in cakes) prefers to shoot over 6'2 guys from Hamilton.

First of all, the Pomeroy numbers are not "padded;" they are simply normalized for minutes played. Next, I can only point out again that CJ gets more minutes because he backs up a token starter, while JS backs up a Wooden Award candidate. His minutes are lower vs. the BCS schools not because of the quality of his play, but because JB has always had a tendency to ride his senior star in those games. And, conversely, CJ's minutes are lower vs. the cupcakes because those are the games where JB gets additional minutes for Rak. Also, you are still not getting it that this is not, and never has been, a CJ vs. JS thing. They are different players who play different positions - CJ has the skill set of an 4, JS has the skill set of a 3. The entire point in this thread was not that one was better than the other (and certainly not to exclaim that any of our valuable contributors "sucks," as you put it), but that one was better suited to be a starting 3 next season. I repeat the innocuous comment that brought all this out: I would not take the idea that CJ is a lock to start at the 3 next season to the bank.

And at the end of his career, a guy who is universally viewed as being better in every phase of the game than KJ, who is contending for first team all conference honors as a senior.

wow, I don't think he is even in the same ballpark as KJ was as a sophomore. He may be, as you assert, a superior ball handler, but he has not shown in game play anything like KJ's ability to drive from various angles, and he completely lacks KJ's vision. Fair never goes to his right, he doesn't draw a lot of fouls for an interior player, and he rarely looks for his teammates. Personally, I think his ceiling is Damone Brown by his senior year (which would make him a pretty good player).

The fact that he has shown MAJOR improvement on his perimeter shooting should strike fear into every Big East/ACC team that we will face or possibly face in the next 2 years.

again, if you actually look at the numbers, there has been no such improvement. He is taking more jumpers, but he is not making them at a higher rate.

Like RF, I want to reiterate that I am not "anti-CJ;" I like his game a lot and I think he is a valuable contributor both now and in the future. But I try to be realistic about what I see. I don't see any indication that he would be as successful as a 3 (or, to be more specific, as a perimeter oriented forward) as he has been as a 4 (interior oriented forward). All things being equal, I have always agreed that he is a better player right now than James, but the point of contention right now is whose skill set would be better suited to line up alongside a pair of frontcourt mates who will be drawn from low post options Fab/Keita/Rak/DC2.

 

[longislandcuse]

Im the least sold on CJ over anyone on this team. Hes good, but hes a string bean who neutralizes our big physical frontcourt by making us alot smaller. Im worried about how we go up against UK, UNC, UCONN with CJ trying to rebound with them.

 

[Knicks411]

if you made that argument then you would be wrong on the first count and I would respond "not nearly enough" on the second count. James has shown a more varied game inside the arc than CJ has shown any consistent ability beyond 8 feet from the basket.

as far as Pace, the other personnel made a big difference, which is my entire point. there was only one other interior threat - Hak. Forth spent more time on the high post and setting picks on top than on the low post, so there was more room for Pace to operate alongside Hak.

the goal is and always will be to put the best team on the floor.

Yeah, I remember a few weeks ago I started to type something about how I wanted to put the best 5 players on the court, but the reality is you want the best team on the court.

And I think there were spacing issues for Gerry. The guy was a pretty damn good shotoer, and he shot about 34% from 3 the last few years.

I dunno, I'm a little more down on CJ, but more than willing to be proven wrong. Don't think he sucks, but don't see him as much of an NBA player, and would be very (pleasantly) surprised if he was first team all whatever league we play in in 2014.

wow, I don't think he is even in the same ballpark as KJ was as a sophomore. He may be, as you assert, a superior ball handler, but he has not shown in game play anything like KJ's ability to drive from various angles, and he completely lacks KJ's vision. Fair never goes to his right, he doesn't draw a lot of fouls for an interior player, and he rarely looks for his teammates. Personally, I think his ceiling is Damone Brown by his senior year (which would make him a pretty good player).

Also agree with this, I think someone before said CJ was better at every phase of the game as a Soph as KJ was. He's better in some phases, but definitely not all. KJ could get to the hoop and draw fouls.

And James vs CJ; well this year, both guys are about the same rebounding. Neither is doing all that great, especially defensively. They have the exact same defensive rebounding% of 14.8, which leads the team. (Did I mention we suck at defensive rebounding?)

 

[Marsh01]

again, if you actually look at the numbers, there has been no such improvement. He is taking more jumpers, but he is not making them at a higher rate.

All you need to do is give it the eye test. Regardless of why he is making more shots from the perimeter, the fact is he has dramatically improved his outside shot from this year to last. You are smart enough to see that.

Like RF, I want to reiterate that I am not "anti-CJ;" I like his game a lot and I think he is a valuable contributor both now and in the future. But I try to be realistic about what I see. I don't see any indication that he would be as successful as a 3 (or, to be more specific, as a perimeter oriented forward) as he has been as a 4 (interior oriented forward). All things being equal, I have always agreed that he is a better player right now than James, but the point of contention right now is whose skill set would be better suited to line up alongside a pair of frontcourt mates who will be drawn from low post options Fab/Keita/Rak/DC2.

And what makes you think James can play that role? Skill set aside its about performing and I have about as much confidence in James filling that role than I do my wife. (and shes a baller) Aside from pure shooting ability CJ has it over James in every category. Aggressiveness, IQ, balls..all of the intangibles you need. I am surprised to hear you say Damone Brown is his ceiling. Shocked actually.

 

[Marsh01]

One more tidbit on CJ. Against arguably our toughest 4 competitors to date here are his numbers:

Florida - 9 pts 11 rebs
Stanford - 10 pts 5 rebs
Va Tech - 12 pts 10 rebs
Seton Hall - 9 pts 8 rebs

The kid performs on a part time basis. He's averaging 24 minutes a game and putting up these numbers. I guess I am surprised to hear people think he can't be physical enough.

 

[longislandcuse]

One more tidbit on CJ. Against arguably our toughest 4 competitors to date here are his numbers:

Florida - 9 pts 11 rebs
Stanford - 10 pts 5 rebs
Va Tech - 12 pts 10 rebs
Seton Hall - 9 pts 8 rebs

The kid performs on a part time basis. He's averaging 24 minutes a game and putting up therse numbers. I guess I am surprised to hear people think he can't be physical enough.

Those numbers are interesting. I just would LOVE for Rak to take over the 4 position. IMO, CJ will be a weakness against bigger teams.

 

[Marsh01]

Those numbers are interesting. I just would LOVE for Rak to take over the 4 position. IMO, CJ will be a weakness against bigger teams.

He had 16 and 9 against Pitt last year who is a pretty damned good rebounding team and had some size. He will be just fine.

 

[The General]

First of all, the Pomeroy numbers are not "padded;" they are simply normalized for minutes played. Next, I can only point out again that CJ gets more minutes because he backs up a token starter, while JS backs up a Wooden Award candidate. His minutes are lower vs. the BCS schools not because of the quality of his play, but because JB has always had a tendency to ride his senior star in those games. And, conversely, CJ's minutes are lower vs. the cupcakes because those are the games where JB gets additional minutes for Rak. Also, you are still not getting it that this is not, and never has been, a CJ vs. JS thing. They are different players who play different positions - CJ has the skill set of an 4, JS has the skill set of a 3. The entire point in this thread was not that one was better than the other (and certainly not to exclaim that any of our valuable contributors "sucks," as you put it), but that one was better suited to be a starting 3 next season. I repeat the innocuous comment that brought all this out: I would not take the idea that CJ is a lock to start at the 3 next season to the bank.

By "padded" I mean the majority of his numbers were accrued against lesser competition. Remove Albany, Colgate, etc... and what will you have by season's end? I care about "real" games. You used Pomeroy stats to compare the two. Don't tell me I don't get it, when YOU compared them, head-to-head, statistically!

Here's my disclaimer... I love CJ. I love Southerland. I love Syracuse basketball. Nothing would make me happier than both of them being incredible. I just think CJ should be the 3. He does more. He creates his own offense by doing the right things, being in the right place, attacking the offensive glass and he's our best rebounder. This doesn't take away from JS. To me, he's a great 6th man.

They have a different skill set. It will come down to what we need more, a shooter to spread the floor or a versatile rebounder. I understand it's not CJ vs. JS as players, but it is as who should play the 3 next year. I guess I prefer the versatile rebounder over the jump shooter.

I understand what you mean about player combinations, spacing. We started 6'5 non-shooting Harris for 3 years at SF. Before that 6'5 non-shooting Pace for 2. I mean, we recruited those guys to play the 3. We basically run the same offense as then, no? If you insist the personnel is vastly different so this is irrelevant, ok. But starting a 6'8 rebounding, do it-all CJ over a jump shooter makes sense to me. You could argue that we had much better spacing once Wes took over for Harris which opened up things for others. I'd buy that. And if JS can be Wes Jr. I'm all for it. That's a big if.

I'm not anti anybody. I'm pro-Syracuse.

 

[The General]

Good post. Quick question: are you the artist formerly known as "General20?"

Nope. Not me. General20 is def. on here though.

 

[AZOrange]

He had 16 and 9 against Pitt last year who is a pretty damned good rebounding team and had some size. He will be just fine.

I dont know if the stats capture this or not, but what other "big" teams are there. ironically i would guess we are one of the biggest in CBB. Debating whether CJ will make the League is one thing, but downplaying his contributions to our team is another. Dude is pound for pound the best rebounder on the team.