How much did leaving the Big East really hurt the program?

[TheCusian]

The ACC is a disaster for basketball and that is not going to change. There were plenty of successful old coaches in the BE, and the ACC. Our recruiting would have remained top notch in the Big East.

ACC money is beneficial for non-revenue sports. Soccer says hello. Perhaps we might be able to add hockey and baseball.

There are football teams that could have been added to the BE. We went for the easy money just like UCLA and USC just did. Their major programs will suffer, but just like us, non-revenue sports will get a lifeline.

The big picture is that NIL and amateur sports are incompatible. There will be change.

Eh. No. More money in athletic departments will translate to wins more often than not. The ACC will be fine in basketball.

If anyone wants to make a “basketball only” argument for staying in the BE, it’s still weak but I can see some mix of nostalgia and recruiting being reasons. But it’s foolish as the decision was what’s best for the athletic department as a whole and it was and is a no brainer.

 

[BomberOrange]

Ouch from the Athletic

What is Syracuse basketball without Boeheim?​

That might be the incorrect existential question. “What is Syracuse men’s hoops, period?” might be more on the nose.

Put just about anyone under oath, and they’ll have to admit the school’s move to the ACC has undercut an identity Boeheim so painstakingly built starting in the 1970s. A football decision becomes the corrosive agent eating away at the hull. Which is too bad. It’s very easy to analyze how UConncorrected course, see the benefits for the Huskies on all fronts and conclude that maybe Syracuse should consider a similar template. It won’t. Which is also too bad.

Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim announces retirement

Boeheim has been head coach of the Orange for 47 seasons, compiling a 1,116-440 record.

theathletic.com

According to the article we went 18-12 this year. Great editing

 

[73CAV]

I'll pose some other questions for you. After joining the ACC, did Syracuse's recruiting decline or did player retention become more of an issue? How many elite recruits came to Syracuse and left after just one year? My view from afar was that Syracuse was recruiting elite talent, but in the age of the OAD, that talent wasn't being retained. Whether you want to say that Coach Boeheim didn't adjust to that new reality, or not, that new dynamic would have happened regardless of conference affiliation. I don't know if Syracuse could have been successful using the Duke/Kentucky recruiting model. Certainly, UCLA and Indiana struggled trying to do it.

 

[donniesyracuse]

This team belongs in the conference with its natural geographic rivals (e.g., Butler, Creighton, DePaul, Marquette, Xavier).

 

[Cusefan0307]

I'll pose some other questions for you. After joining the ACC, did Syracuse's recruiting decline or did player retention become more of an issue? How many elite recruits came to Syracuse and left after just one year? My view from afar was that Syracuse was recruiting elite talent, but in the age of the OAD, that talent wasn't being retained. Whether you want to say that Coach Boeheim didn't adjust to that new reality, or not, that new dynamic would have happened regardless of conference affiliation. I don't know if Syracuse could have been successful using the Duke/Kentucky recruiting model. Certainly, UCLA and Indiana struggled trying to do it.

It was a bit of both. We also had a ton of transfers. Being a hard ass in the age of not having to sit out a year in the portal doesn’t necessarily work. I was always jealous of Virginia because while you guys never recruited elite talent Bennett was always able to keep his guys and develop a team. Running off a bunch of key guys from our 2021 sweet 16 team was the final nail in the coffin for him.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Like I said on the FB board, if you really miss the Big East and if the ACC loses most of its teams then we could see one day 7 of the 9 early Big East teams back together again and playing the ACCT in MSG.

You would need SU, BC, Pitt, Duke to stay together and reject the B12. Being more academically oriented and private (except Pitt) makes this more likely IMO. You would need to convince Army and Navy to join for football only (upgrade for both). You would need to convince UConn to join for all sports (to save FB they would). You would need to convince Georgetown and St Johns to leave the Big East (half the Big East is not in the East already and they get back with their prior Northeast pals). You would need to convince Nova to leave and to go FBS in football (if you threaten to take Temple instead I think they budge). You would need USF to join for all sports (this is needed to keep FB relevant in FLA).

Also for those Big East schools they would be making more money in the ACC.

That would give you a BBall league of SU, BC, Pitt, Duke, Wake, UConn, Georgetown, St Johns, Nova, USF. That is 7 out of 9 year four Big East teams. Only Seton Hall and Providence are missing. In return you get Duke which is even better (although you have to put up with Wake and USF). MSG certainly picks the ACC over the leftover Big East which is mostly Midwestern.

 

[Bayside44]

Does Syracuse not play 18 times a year in Syracuse anymore?

This argument has always been utterly ridiculous.

Recruiting suffered because we don’t play in Providence and East Rutherford once every 2 years.

It's completely insane.

Autry's first goal is to get deeper in the DMV. Seems like that's in the footprint considering (check notes) DC is hosting the ACC tournament next year.

Our students come from the ACC footprint, our fans are all over that footprint.

The BIG would've been a tomb for us (a very well gilded tomb).

 

[Scooch]

It's completely insane.

Autry's first goal is to get deeper in the DMV. Seems like that's in the footprint considering (check notes) DC is hosting the ACC tournament next year.

Our students come from the ACC footprint, our fans are all over that footprint.

The BIG would've been a tomb for us (a very well gilded tomb).

Completely. We play 2/3rd of our games in the same place we always have.

And if people somehow forgot, in the last decade of the Big East we were playing road games in Miami, Louisville, Tampa, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, Indiana and Chicago.

We still play road games in Boston, Pittsburgh, DC and NYC. Basically we lost a regular presence in Rhode Island and New Jersey. Crippling.

 

[73CAV]

Like I said on the FB board, if you really miss the Big East and if the ACC loses most of its teams then we could see one day 7 of the 9 early Big East teams back together again and playing the ACCT in MSG.

You would need SU, BC, Pitt, Duke to stay together and reject the B12. Being more academically oriented and private (except Pitt) makes this more likely IMO. You would need to convince Army and Navy to join for football only (upgrade for both). You would need to convince UConn to join for all sports (to save FB they would). You would need to convince Georgetown and St Johns to leave the Big East (half the Big East is not in the East already and they get back with their prior Northeast pals). You would need to convince Nova to leave and to go FBS in football (if you threaten to take Temple instead I think they budge). You would need USF to join for all sports (this is needed to keep FB relevant in FLA).

Also for those Big East schools they would be making more money in the ACC.

That would give you a BBall league of SU, BC, Pitt, Duke, Wake, UConn, Georgetown, St Johns, Nova, USF. That is 7 out of 9 year four Big East teams. Only Seton Hall and Providence are missing. In return you get Duke which is even better (although you have to put up with Wake and USF). MSG certainly picks the ACC over the leftover Big East which is mostly Midwestern.

Regardless of what may, or may not, happen in the coming years, Duke and UNC are joined at the hip, and UVa and UNC are likewise. I won't say that it's written in stone, but it is more than merely likely that wherever one of those goes (or stays), the other two will do the same. In all probability, any decision(s) will be reached by a collusion of the three.

 

[Scooch]

A couple other points...

1) Kids have been leaving the northeast to go play ball in other parts of the country for decades. Lew Alcindor went to HS in NYC and the left for college in California. Kenny Anderson went to Atlanta, as did Stephon Marbury. Nate Archibald went to UTEP. Bernard King went to Tennessee. Jamal Mashburn went to Kentucky. And that's just a tiny sampling of NYC kids.

2) The world is far more global today than it once was, particularly the sports world. And HS players today only know Syracuse as an ACC team. They know we play in Central NY, and play a lot of games against the biggest brands in the sport. I have a hard time believing that some standout NYC kid is thinking "Yeah, my family can see me play 4 hours away 18 times a season, and we usually play games in the city... but they can't come see me in Piscataway twice if I stay four years, so I'm not going to SU."

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Man I miss the Big East Tournament. Can you imagine being there last night to see a team from Milwaukee, a team from Cincinnati, and a team from Omaha?

 

[OptimusOtto]

I do NOT think it hurt. We got plenty of players here the early years of the ACC. We were a name program with a name HoF HC playing in, at the time, what was thought of as the best BBall conference. Even with the ACC being down, look at the F4s the last decade.

I think our recruiting went down because of JB and the assistants. JB didn't put the effort in. And JB wanted kids who were easy to coach. Also is it a coincidence that Hop leaves and recruiting goes down? Is it a coincidence that two 3rds of our staff had little to no recruiting experience prior to being at SU? Is it a coincidence that we have SU guys and not outsiders who already have connections?

I will say that going forward I do think being in the ACC will hurt. We have been down the last 9 years so it is harder to recruit. We no longer have a championship winning HoF HC. Duke, UNC, and Louisville are all down and not likely to be your typical Duke, UNC, or Louisville any time soon.

Those factors make things more difficult. We made our program getting kids from DC to Boston. Recruiting is more national now than ever, so keeping kids from the Northeast in the Northeast is harder.

On top of that the B1G is seen as a better conference, even though they never win anything (only 2 F4s in last 6 NCAAs). So that, plus having a lot more money puts SU at a disadvantage vs Penn State, Rutgers, Maryland.

The Big East lately has been seen as a better conference also. UConn, Seton Hall, Providence, St Johns, Georgetown, Nova can all go to a recruit and say that they play all of their home games plus FIVE road games a year within that DC to Boston corridor. Oh and the conf tourny is in MSG. You know how many games SU plays total a year in that area? ONE! So that puts us at a disadvantage.

With the right HC it doesn't matter. Tony Bennett or Nate Oats would win a lot of games at St Bonaventure. But a decent HC will have a hard time being consistently good being in the ACC vs being in the Big East IMO.

Look at recruiting and I can guarantee you Seton Hall, St. John’s, Georgetown and Providence do not have a recruiting advantage over us.

We’ll see how Nova operates without Wright now. UConn has beat us for recruits recently but we blew the Andre Jackson recruitment and Clingan wasn’t leaving Connecticut.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Look at recruiting and I can guarantee you Seton Hall, St. John’s, Georgetown and Providence do not have a recruiting advantage over us.

We’ll see how Nova operates without Wright now. UConn has beat us for recruits recently but we blew the Andre Jackson recruitment and Clingan wasn’t leaving Connecticut.

Outside of Storrs the best teams in that conference are Xavier, Marquette, and Creighton.

Some recruiting advantage those Northeast schools have.

 

[Sherman20]

I didn’t see exactly what he said but to think the Cuse brand will ever be what it was would require drastic realignment of power in college sports. Not to mention the fact that college sports itself is a mess. I’d say our chances of reaching anything close to what we were is exceedingly slim. Not zero, but not anywhere close to probable.

The ESPN writers think we’ll be fine:

The Orange's record in ACC play has been at or near .500 in each of the past nine seasons. Under a new coach, there will be far fewer questions about the future of the program. This is a brand-name basketball team with a rabid fan base and a glittering roster of past stars, starting with Carmelo Anthony. Syracuse goes onward and upward from here. -- Gasaway​

 

[OrangeCrush22]

Our decline after leaving the Big East is mostly coincidental. Our coach was aging and getting lazier with recruiting. We lost Hopkins. Had the sanctions, the scandal. JB running someone over. Building teams around his sons to maximize their minutes. All of that still happens in the Big East.

If JB leaves in 2016 and Hop takes over that may have changed the story.

 

[Sherman20]

Ouch from the Athletic

What is Syracuse basketball without Boeheim?​

That might be the incorrect existential question. “What is Syracuse men’s hoops, period?” might be more on the nose.

Put just about anyone under oath, and they’ll have to admit the school’s move to the ACC has undercut an identity Boeheim so painstakingly built starting in the 1970s. A football decision becomes the corrosive agent eating away at the hull. Which is too bad. It’s very easy to analyze how UConncorrected course, see the benefits for the Huskies on all fronts and conclude that maybe Syracuse should consider a similar template. It won’t. Which is also too bad.

Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim announces retirement

Boeheim has been head coach of the Orange for 47 seasons, compiling a 1,116-440 record.

theathletic.com

That’s one guy’s opinion. I just posted the opinion of an ESPN writer who feels the opposite, we’ll go onward and upward from here.

 

[Sherman20]

Ouch from the Athletic

What is Syracuse basketball without Boeheim?​

That might be the incorrect existential question. “What is Syracuse men’s hoops, period?” might be more on the nose.

Put just about anyone under oath, and they’ll have to admit the school’s move to the ACC has undercut an identity Boeheim so painstakingly built starting in the 1970s. A football decision becomes the corrosive agent eating away at the hull. Which is too bad. It’s very easy to analyze how UConncorrected course, see the benefits for the Huskies on all fronts and conclude that maybe Syracuse should consider a similar template. It won’t. Which is also too bad.

Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim announces retirement

Boeheim has been head coach of the Orange for 47 seasons, compiling a 1,116-440 record.

theathletic.com

You cherry-picked his comments as well. He also said:
Since it won’t, Autry can be — has to be — the energy jolt Syracuse needs. He can reframe the identity of the program within the ACC instead of clinging to the remnants of a former self. The place will always care, intensely, about men’s hoops. The support and resourcing will be more than adequate. The mission now is re-engaging with that energy and finding a way to make the Orange an “it” program again. Easier suggested than done, yes. Still, a fresh set of eyes and no fear of pushback from Boeheim can help.

 

[Sherman20]

Ouch from the Athletic

What is Syracuse basketball without Boeheim?​

That might be the incorrect existential question. “What is Syracuse men’s hoops, period?” might be more on the nose.

Put just about anyone under oath, and they’ll have to admit the school’s move to the ACC has undercut an identity Boeheim so painstakingly built starting in the 1970s. A football decision becomes the corrosive agent eating away at the hull. Which is too bad. It’s very easy to analyze how UConncorrected course, see the benefits for the Huskies on all fronts and conclude that maybe Syracuse should consider a similar template. It won’t. Which is also too bad.

Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim announces retirement

Boeheim has been head coach of the Orange for 47 seasons, compiling a 1,116-440 record.

theathletic.com

Brian Hamilton also gets his facts wrong. He said we’ve been a top 50 KenPom team once in the last six years. WrONG. We’ve been top 50 in KenPom 3 times in the last six years. And in a fourth year (2020) we were 51. We really only started bottoming out the past two years in the KenPom ratings.

 

[Hoo's That]

If we repeated that season a bunch more times, they’d all remember and care. It’s on us.

Virginia was in their first really good year at the time, if I recall. They’ve maintained it so everyone knows them as a power.

That 2014 game vs. SU is viewed as our coming out party by many of our fans. It showed that we were now on firm footing as one of the teams that had to be reckoned with in the ACC.

I fully understand the nostalgia for the past. As my classmate, 73CAV pointed out, there are a lot of our fans who pine for the 9- (and even 8-, or 7-) team ACC when we played the double roundrobin schedule. I do have to wonder if there would be as much nostalgia here if you were in the top 4 teams every year. I don't see how playing teams in Cincinnati, Milwaukee, and Omaha are a bigger recruiting draw than playing UNC or Duke (maybe even UVa {blush}).

 

[HRE Otto IV]

That 2014 game vs. SU is viewed as our coming out party by many of our fans. It showed that we were now now on firm footing as one of the teams that had to be reckoned with in the ACC.

I fully understand the nostalgia for the past. As my classmate, 73CAV pointed out, there are a lot of our fans who pine for the 9- (and even 8-, or 7-) team ACC when we played the double roundrobin schedule. I do have to wonder if there would be as much nostalgia here if you were winning more conference games. I don't see how playing teams in Cincinnati, Milwaukee, and Omaha are a bigger recruiting draw than playing UNC or Duke (maybe even UVa {blush}).

We had easy road games to travel to. Georgetown, Nova, Seton Hall, St Johns, Providence all felt like home games. Then MSG for the Tournament. It is a hike to the ACC road games and Tournament.

That is on top of close to 40 years of history with those opponents.

 

[elimunelson]

No matter what the Big East now vs Big East then they still have control of early March with the single best conference tournament around. There's literally no one close IMO. MSG in early March is worth something.

I assume recruiting, etc has not been marketedly hurt by us in the ACC (who really knows) but our runs in the Big East were national events that helped propel us even further into the hearts and minds of fans across the country. That i have no doubt about.

 

[Hoo's That]

We had easy road games to travel to. Georgetown, Nova, Seton Hall, St Johns, Providence all felt like home games. Then MSG for the Tournament. It is a hike to the ACC road games and Tournament.

That is on top of close to 40 years of history with those opponents.

How much of the "all felt like home games" was due to SU's success in the league? If SU was struggling to win would traveling to see those games seem more like a trip to the woodshed? Semi-interesting relevant factoid - Clemson has never won in Chapel Hill going back 70 years. Do you think their fans are nostalgic about playing there?

We're going through a similar situation in football scheduling. "Why are we playing {team from west of the Appalachians} instead of James Madison?" Because not all our alums live in VA.

 

[Consigliere]

The other side of the equation is how much did Syracuse leaving hurt the Big East? Top three Big "East" teams in the standings this year were from Wisconsin, Nebraska and Ohio. Less than half of the membership was made up of traditional Big East teams befor taking UConn back and UConn is the only program that plays FBS level football. Never understood why the league added additional non-football schools to dilute revenue when the first defections to the ACC occured (Virginia Tech, BC, Miami). IMHO that pretty much killed the viability of the league for Syracuse and Pitt.

 

[Cusefan0307]

No matter what the Big East now vs Big East then they still have control of early March with the single best conference tournament around. There's literally no one close IMO. MSG in early March is worth something.

I assume recruiting, etc has not been marketedly hurt by us in the ACC (who really knows) but our runs in the Big East were national events that helped propel us even further into the hearts and minds of fans across the country. That i have no doubt about.

They’ll be lucky to draw 5000 today. There will be zero juice.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

How much of the "all felt like home games" was due to SU's success in the league? If SU was struggling to win would traveling to see those games seem more like a trip to the woodshed? Semi-interesting relevant factoid - Clemson has never won in Chapel Hill going back 70 years. Do you think their fans are nostalgic about playing there?

We're going through a similar situation in football scheduling. "Why are we playing {team from west of the Appalachians} instead of James Madison?" Because not all our alums live in VA.

We could be a 20-10 type of team and I am going to most of those games. If we were 25-5 type of team in the ACC I probably would go to zero road games.