Howard Washington

[Consigliere]

Disagree. Bodies; living, breathing, bodies at guard is exactly what we need...
What is the negative of taking Washington at this point? Will he scare off higher rated talent later? Will he not provide needed depth and practice body? Does he not appear to bleed Orange?

Think he is clearly third of three options in the backcourt and we'll only take 2 at this point. I expect to see us sign 4 HS/Prep prospects this year and save the final ship for '18 with no seniors on the projected roster. He's waited this long I think it's safe to say he'll wait until the door is closed. If there are post season roster moves (Lydon, Battle, Howard) I would expect to see grad transfers fill the gap. Though it's not inconceivable that we could take a third HS guard in that scenario the available options in the '18 class are certainly stronger.

 

[Ryand877]

Think he is clearly third of three options in the backcourt and we'll only take 2 at this point. I expect to see us sign 4 HS/Prep prospects this year and save the final ship for '18 with no seniors on the projected roster. He's waited this long I think it's safe to say he'll wait until the door is closed. If there are post season roster moves (Lydon, Battle, Howard) I would expect to see grad transfers fill the gap. Though it's not inconceivable that we could take a third HS guard in that scenario the available options in the '18 class are certainly stronger.

I have no inside information, but the handling of this situation makes me think Frank is coming back.

 

[RF2044]

Think he is clearly third of three options in the backcourt and we'll only take 2 at this point. I expect to see us sign 4 HS/Prep prospects this year and save the final ship for '18 with no seniors on the projected roster. He's waited this long I think it's safe to say he'll wait until the door is closed. If there are post season roster moves (Lydon, Battle, Howard) I would expect to see grad transfers fill the gap. Though it's not inconceivable that we could take a third HS guard in that scenario the available options in the '18 class are certainly stronger.

I don't disagree, BUT we have no idea whether we're going to land either Duarte or Ayala, let alone both. We also don't know whether Ayala will reclassify, or whether he'll remain a 2018 recruit, or if he'll even qualify for 2017 [per Francis, he doesn't have a standardized test score because he hasn't taken them yet]. I'd wager that HW has a pretty good chance of landing in Orange based upon those factors as the 2nd backcourt recruit.

Things could also change if Frank doesn't return. If he does, and the staff feels good about his prospects over the next two years, then Howard becomes expendable.

I do agree that 1 or 2 scholarships might be "held" for fifth year transfers.

 

[RF2044]

Just for comparison's sake, here are the players we have slated to return next season:

1. Howard
2. Moyer
3. Thompson
4. Chukwu

We add two recruits in Brisset / Sidibe. That brings us up to 6.

We don't know what will happen with either Lydon or Battle yet. Safe to assume we can expect one to leave [Lydon], with one returning -- although given recent history, who knows.

If both return, we'd have 8 players, with the ability to prospectively add 3 more recruits. Presumably, that would be two more backcourt players, with one scholarship being held for 5th year transfers.

If Lydon leaves, then we'd have four open scholarships to play with instead of 3.

If Howard / Battle leave, then we'd have another vacancy to fill.

Roster is really going to be in turmoil this offseason until the dust settles.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Just for comparison's sake, here are the players we have slated to return next season:

1. Howard
2. Moyer
3. Thompson
4. Chukwu

We add two recruits in Brisset / Sidibe. That brings us up to 6.

We don't know what will happen with either Lydon or Battle yet. Safe to assume we can expect one to leave [Lydon], with one returning -- although given recent history, who knows.

If both return, we'd have 8 players, with the ability to prospectively add 3 more recruits. Presumably, that would be two more backcourt players, with one scholarship being held for 5th year transfers.

If Lydon leaves, then we'd have four open scholarships to play with instead of 3.

If Howard / Battle leave, then we'd have another vacancy to fill.

Roster is really going to be in turmoil this offseason until the dust settles.

I think 2 roster spots are being reserved for 5th year grads (ie Egor and Keene). And if we get those 2 they are starters.

That means we have 8 filled now + 2 grad transfers (like Egor and Keene)= one remaining schollie. And with just one remaining schollie the staff is hesitant to offer Howard Washington.

 

[RF2044]

I think 2 roster spots are being reserved for 5th year grads (ie Egor and Keene). And if we get those 2 they are starters.

That means we have 8 filled now + 2 grad transfers (like Egor and Keene)= one remaining schollie. And with just one remaining schollie the staff is hesitant to offer Howard Washington.

If we can get those two, sign me up.

I just don't feel strongly confident about the likelihood that Lydon, Battle, and Howard all return to get us to 8. I expect that when the dust settles, we'll be down at least one from that group--possibly two--and that there will be some additional open scholarhips in play.

But I agree with your logic, and that two will likely be designed for 5th year transfer options, guys who will be brought in to start. That's probably why they've held off on Washington -- the staff wants to see if a player departs, declares for the NBA draft, etc. thereby opening one up for him. At which point, they'd pull the trigger.

 

[orangecuse]

I think that as a fanbase, we sometimes get too caught up in the belief that every recruit we bring in needs to be a starter by sophomore year, or bust. Guys who can contribute quality depth are important, too. I look at Washington as a solid but unspectacular recruit who will help rectify a problem that we've had on our roster for the past five years: namely, a complete lack of depth at the point guard position.

This kid might not ever be an ACC starter, but he's no slouch and seems to be improving. He's got good size for the zone. He's not a converted combo guard that we'd have to try to convert to playing lead guard--he already understands how to play the position [what a refreshing change] and has good instincts for it. He's a pretty good shooter.

I'm not suggesting that Washington's game is identical to this comparison, but I see HW as a lot like a Greg Monroe-type recruit. A guy who will back up our starter and potentially provide quality play, hit shots, etc. A guy who fits our defensive system. And a guy who might develop into a starter later in his career.

And if not? Recruit over him in 2018 and let him provide quality depth during his four years on the hill, a la Baye Moussa Keita. Nothing wrong with that. We need to start rebuilding our roster and using our scholarships, after being decimated by the NCAA sanctions. No more 10, 11 man teams.

I think that is because that appears to be the trend for us whereas for years that was the norm. Guys would come in, get nomimal minutes as a frosh, some more meaningful minutes as a soph, and then ready to step into that starter role as a junior and contribute more substantially. JB built his successful program in this systematic fashion.

With the advent of the one/two and done, this has left substantial voids in the program due to the immediate need for that replacement recruit to step in and produce, whereas in the past he was being molded, etc. We can't replace impact players as the UK's, Duke's, KU's, of the world can/do and it really has affected the consistent methodical assembly.

 

[RF2044]

I think that is because that appears to be the trend for us whereas for years that was the norm. Guys would come in, get nomimal minutes as a frosh, some more meaningful minutes as a soph, and then ready to step into that starter role as a junior and contribute more substantially. JB built his successful program in this systematic fashion.

With the advent of the one/two and done, this has left substantial voids in the program due to the immediate need for that replacement recruit to step in and produce, whereas in the past he was being molded, etc. We can't replace impact players as the UK's, Duke's, KU's, of the world can/do and it really has affected the consistent methodical assembly.

There is no doubt that early entry has hurt our squad in recent years. For every McCullough, who they knew was a one-and-done, there is no doubt in my mind that they expected to have Ennis for a second year, Grant for a third, Mali for a second, etc.

And I agree 100% that we can't reload like Duke / UK. For decades, our program was built landing quality program guys who fit the system and were above average college players, and the staff surrounded that foundation with a sprinkling a guys [Dion, Flynn, Greene, Carmelo, etc.] who were sure fire pros.

In recent years, we've gotten away from that a bit, and landed guys who were good enough to declare and make the jump, but generally not good enough to transform the program because they weren't transcendent talents like the ones going to Duke / UK. That's left gaping roster holes. Would like to see us land a lot more four year guys who can play, and be more choiceful about the early entrants we bring in.

Not in terms of the recruiting rankings, but I wonder if we would have been better off landing a guy like Alex Tyus--who was a three year starter at PF on some good Florida teams--instead of a Donte Green, who was gone in one season. Or a Monte Morris in Ennis's class. Both guys who really wanted to come here. Those guys would have changed the program's curve in recent years.

 

[SUOrangeSU]

I dont know how realistic Kenne is for SU. a buddy of mine who is pretty hooked up in the Duke scene is saying that Keene is strongly link to them..FWIW

 

[RF2044]

I dont know how realistic Kenne is for SU. a buddy of mine who is pretty hooked up in the Duke scene is saying that Keene is strongly link to them..FWIW

There was a report [or an article] the other day suggesting that Duke was Kenne's dream school, that he'd be interested in going there, etc.

It remains to be seen whether they'd reciprocate the interest, whether they'd want to bring in a high scoring transfer who might not fit their system, etc.

Not knocking Keene, just pointing out that there is a difference between the player [or fans] expressing interest and the school expressing interest.

 

[pfister1]

But I agree with your logic, and that two will likely be designed for 5th year transfer options, guys who will be brought in to start. That's probably why they've held off on Washington -- the staff wants to see if a player departs, declares for the NBA draft, etc. thereby opening one up for him. At which point, they'd pull the trigger.

I know this could never happen, but I would love to hear JB/Hop discuss what they are thinking with regard to the development of the roster for next season. I've played the devil's advocate a bit with regard to Washington because there is clearly something holding up the offer, but I can't say that I disagree with the sentiment that if the staff believes that he can contribute by his junior year that we should make an offer. The fact that we have no guard depth and not many obvious high school senior prospects remain makes me wonder what the staff's view of Washington is?

It is possible that Washington may not have an offer due to a simple number's / timing squeeze. We are limited to 11 total schoarship players. There are three scholarships that we know today are still available and could be given to an incoming player. There are five that are definitely spoken for (Moyer, Thompson, Chuckwu, Sidibe & Brisett). There are an additional 3 that may be in a bit of a gray area, (Lydon, Battle and Howard) with each one being a different shade of gray.

What JB needs with those 3 scholarships that he definitely has available is different depending on what the three gray area guys end up doing. If all 3 gray area guys return we probably need a guard that is ready to contribute immediately and we have room for one or more guys that may not be as ready. If one or more of those gray area guys leaves we have a greater need for guys that are immediately ready to contribute. JB may be caught in a position where he has to plan on using the three available scholarships for guys that are immediately ready in case one or more of gray area guys goes, but isn't ready to push anyone out if those guys all decide to stay. Not knowing for certain about Lydon, Battle and Howard causes roster uncertainty both from the perspective of what your immediate roster needs are for next season and how many spots you will have available to fill those uncertain needs next year.

Unfortunately, if you are in need of immediate help and you fill your available roster slots with developmental players there is no recovery. If you take guys that can help immediately and then don't need them, it is easy enough to sit them behind a guy like Lydon or Battle that returned when you weren't sure they would. Therefore two or more of these scholarships may be earmarked for grad transfers/juco players until JB knows for certain what Lydon and/or Battle are doing. You can repeat the refrain all you want that Battle or Lydon aren't ready, but if they choose to go (whether they are ready or not) we will have to replace them or be ready for a long winter.

 

[SUOrangeSU]

There was a report [or an article] the other day suggesting that Duke was Kenne's dream school, that he'd be interested in going there, etc.

It remains to be seen whether they'd reciprocate the interest, whether they'd want to bring in a high scoring transfer who might not fit their system, etc.

Not knocking Keene, just pointing out that there is a difference between the player [or fans] expressing interest and the school expressing interest.

I think they are pitching the seth curry role to him, even with Duval coming in. I don't understand it though - why would you go to a program where you can start day 1 and have pretty much unlimited run ala Syracuse

 

[Sgt Cuse]

[QUOTE="pfister1, post: 2098120, member: 285
Unfortunately, if you are in need of immediate help and you fill your available roster slots with developmental players there is no recovery. If you take guys that can help immediately and then don't need them, it is easy enough to sit them behind a guy like Lydon or Battle that returned when you weren't sure they would. Therefore two or more of these scholarships may be earmarked for grad transfers/juco players until JB knows for certain what Lydon and/or Battle are doing. You can repeat the refrain all you want that Battle or Lydon aren't ready, but if they choose to go (whether they are ready or not) we will have to replace them or be ready for a long winter.[/QUOTE]
I think we need 2 grad transfers even without Battle or Lydon leaving. We need Gillon and AW3 replacements next year and you don't want to rely on frosh.

If Battle or Lydon go we may need 3 grad transfers. Last year if Lydon had gone there was that Yversten guy that NC State got.

 

[Consigliere]

I know this could never happen, but I would love to hear JB/Hop discuss what they are thinking with regard to the development of the roster for next season. I've played the devil's advocate a bit with regard to Washington because there is clearly something holding up the offer, but I can't say that I disagree with the sentiment that if the staff believes that he can contribute by his junior year that we should make an offer. The fact that we have no guard depth and not many obvious high school senior prospects remain makes me wonder what the staff's view of Washington is?

It is possible that Washington may not have an offer due to a simple number's / timing squeeze. We are limited to 11 total schoarship players. There are three scholarships that we know today are still available and could be given to an incoming player. There are five that are definitely spoken for (Moyer, Thompson, Chuckwu, Sidibe & Brisett). There are an additional 3 that may be in a bit of a gray area, (Lydon, Battle and Howard) with each one being a different shade of gray.

What JB needs with those 3 scholarships that he definitely has available is different depending on what the three gray area guys end up doing. If all 3 gray area guys return we probably need a guard that is ready to contribute immediately and we have room for one or more guys that may not be as ready. If one or more of those gray area guys leaves we have a greater need for guys that are immediately ready to contribute. JB may be caught in a position where he has to plan on using the three available scholarships for guys that are immediately ready in case one or more of gray area guys goes, but isn't ready to push anyone out if those guys all decide to stay. Not knowing for certain about Lydon, Battle and Howard causes roster uncertainty both from the perspective of what your immediate roster needs are for next season and how many spots you will have available to fill those uncertain needs next year.

Unfortunately, if you are in need of immediate help and you fill your available roster slots with developmental players there is no recovery. If you take guys that can help immediately and then don't need them, it is easy enough to sit them behind a guy like Lydon or Battle that returned when you weren't sure they would. Therefore two or more of these scholarships may be earmarked for grad transfers/juco players until JB knows for certain what Lydon and/or Battle are doing. You can repeat the refrain all you want that Battle or Lydon aren't ready, but if they choose to go (whether they are ready or not) we will have to replace them or be ready for a long winter.

Agree completely with this analysis. Do you think that the fact that there will be no rising seniors on the roster at this point impacts the decision making? We do get one scholarship back for the class of 2018 but with the prospects available and presumably interested could the staff be holding at least one spot open? And would this scenario make a fifth year transfer look even more attractive since he would release the roster spot for '18?

 

[pfister1]

I think we need 2 grad transfers even without Battle or Lydon leaving. We need Gillon and AW3 replacements next year and you don't want to rely on frosh.

If Battle or Lydon go we may need 3 grad transfers. Last year if Lydon had gone there was that Yversten guy that NC State got.

Just shows how tricky roster management can be. I believe that the high school senior signing period (April 12th - May 17th) will occur before we have answers to most of the other things at play here e.g. who is leaving in the draft (Early Entry Withdrawal deadline is June 12th), who is willing to come in as a grad transfer or a juco transfer (presumably can't happen until guys have actually graduated). That's not to say Washington has to sign during that period (Thompson didn't last year), but I suspect he will want to.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Just shows how tricky roster management can be. I believe that the high school senior signing period (April 12th - May 17th) will occur before we have answers to most of the other things at play here e.g. who is leaving in the draft (Early Entry Withdrawal deadline is June 12th), who is willing to come in as a grad transfer or a juco transfer (presumably can't happen until guys have actually graduated). That's not to say Washington has to sign during that period (Thompson didn't last year), but I suspect he will want to.

I agree roster management is particularly tricky right now.

It's possible for me to envision the staff prioritizing getting someone like Keene as so much more important to next year that you don't want to offer Howard Washington even though you would like to have him down the road.

 

[SUOrangeSU]

I agree roster management is particularly tricky right now.

It's possible for me to envision the staff prioritizing getting someone like Keene as so much more important to next year that you don't want to offer Howard Washington even though you would like to have him down the road.

I think you go the route of telling Keene that HW would almost certainly redshirt or not take any of majority of minutes/tell Keene he has the keys

 

[pfister1]

I think you go the route of telling Keene that HW would almost certainly redshirt or not take any of majority of minutes/tell Keene he has the keys

That's not the issue. The issue is knowing for certain that you have a scholarship available.

 

[SUOrangeSU]

That's not the issue. The issue is knowing for certain that you have a scholarship available.

We're going to have plenty of scholarships available...maybe even you and I can get one :bang:

 

[Cuse'91]

Think he is clearly third of three options in the backcourt and we'll only take 2 at this point. I expect to see us sign 4 HS/Prep prospects this year and save the final ship for '18 with no seniors on the projected roster. He's waited this long I think it's safe to say he'll wait until the door is closed. If there are post season roster moves (Lydon, Battle, Howard) I would expect to see grad transfers fill the gap. Though it's not inconceivable that we could take a third HS guard in that scenario the available options in the '18 class are certainly stronger.

True, but I feel we need a huge influx of GUARDS... We will have 5 or more centers and power forwards next year for crying out loud...
Pikachu
Sidibe
Brissett
Thompson
Moyer

 

[OttosBestFriend]

True, but I feel we need a huge influx of GUARDS... We will have 5 or more centers and power forwards next year for crying out loud...
Pikachu
Sidibe
Brissett
Thompson
Moyer

If Moyer plays even ONE minute at PF or C next year, that means that not only did Lydon definitely go pro, but Thompson, Pascal, and Sidibe were all thrown off the team. And if that's the case, then we've got bigger problems than we already think we do.

 

[RF2044]

If Moyer plays even ONE minute at PF or C next year, that means that not only did Lydon definitely go pro, but Thompson, Pascal, and Sidibe were all thrown off the team. And if that's the case, then we've got bigger problems than we already think we do.

Nonsense. Moyer is a PF. That's what he's going to play. In fact, he could [emphasis on "could"] be a starter next season at the 4 if Lydon goes pro. I'd venture to guess that he'd even be the front runner for that role under those circumstances, given that he's practicing with the team this year.

 

[JrodCuse]

99% sure Thompson is going to be our starting PF next year, no?

 

[orangefog]

99% sure Thompson is going to be our starting PF next year, no?

I believe we have a bit of a logjam at the 4/5. Personally, I think that Lydon returns and starts at the 4 and Thompson at the 5. That leaves Moyer and Brissett to back up the 4 and Chukwu and Sidebe to back up the 5. Nice depth there. Now lets talk about the guards...I mean guard.

 

[Shark58]

I believe we have a big of a logjam at the 4/5. Personally, I think that Lydon returns and starts at the 4 and Thompson at the 5. That leaves Moyer and Brissett to back up the 4 and Chukwu and Sidebe to back up the 5. Nice depth there. Now lets talk about the guards...I mean guard.