I am sure I will get killed for this

[phil77]

say you hire a new HC that comes in because they just landed a P5 gig, which will not doubt be a promotion a jump in pay and stature, says all the right things first few months, going to recruit better build an exciting brand of football, gets fans back in seats, build winner. Inherently, they will need a couple years to get there guys in place. Said coach comes in and shortly realizes this job is damn tough and probably the most difficult of it's kind that is out there. Now they are scrambling, hiring new assistants, figuring out recruiting territory, schemes, etc. and once again we are in the middle of yet another vicious circle. They all have to to flip the script because the job has challenges they were unaware of prior to taking the job

Marrone seemed dialed in year 4 and I would have loved to see what year 5 looked like but we lost a ton of talent that year but he also had some pretty good recruits that flipped once he left. That said, we would have won a couple more games and went 8-4 ( also still had a knucklehead at AD when Doug left). you just continue to build from there but it just takes a ton of time to get it right and I don't care that it's year 5 of Dino, we are definitely taking a step back on the field but he seems to have recruiting back on track. Also remember after the 10 win season how many other HC at other programs were telling kids he wouldn't be around after 1 more year etc.

Here is hoping that if Dino gets the time and rights the ship that he returns the loyalty from the administration with staying put? Would not be normal given the current landscape but loyalty goes both ways.

In addition, I don't think you can handpick a better rep for the football program that Dino Babers and that means something to me and willing to see this through until the bitter end

Couldn't agree more with the last sentence.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Our limitations explain why we are not Top 25 consistently. But you can argue that we are the worst P5 program of the 2000s. That shouldn't be happening. We have enough to work with to be a consistent Top 60 program.

If Babers can recruit decently (which by all indications he has been lately) and we start seeing these kids make an impact on the field, then he should get a longer leash even with a poor record. The D talent he has brought in has looked pretty good. The O talent is very concerning though. The OL is a mess. The RBs and WRs do not seem ACC level. The QB has struggled and we have no one the compete with him. It is early in the season so maybe we start seeing some young guys get PT as the year goes on. But if the rest of this year and next year are more of the same in regards to O talent, it will be very worrisome.

Other than Kansas I don't think there would be much argument about who has been the worse P5 program of the 2000's. Kansas had that fat dude in the early 2000's that probably saves them but he was not well liked and a tyrant and they ran him off. If you really consider the last run of Big East football wasn't truly P5 it only makes matters worse. With that said if Marrone would have stayed it would have been a much smoother intro to the ACC. He leaves and then we have another setback with Shafer. Dino's record is 23-27 and considering where he started it's not horrible and up until last year had some tough OOC opponents as well ( Please let's not play the game where somebody tries to take away the 10 win season, it happened as did the bad games) Lets also not play the game where this season is a normal schedule so 4-7 would not be a typical 4-7 or worse.

All that said, we need to suck it up and let Dino almost reboot continue build depth and probably switch a few more gears as many long term coaches are given the same opportunity. He has had some success here so it's not like he has shown nothing. I know it's year 5 but year 5 is a season like we have never seen, no lay ups or tune ups, fans etc. I would say after 2022 season if we are still in the same spot then yeah it's probably time to start thinking about making a move. Dino checks every box outside Wins and losses and in today's landscape as well at Syracuse and the fanbase it means a hell of a lot. He's a huge asset to the University and community.

He's obviously going outside the box, recruiting Hawaii and anywhere for that matter, hired a DC from another P5 program etc. He's also moved on from long time assistants who I am sure he had a personal relationship with which I am sure it wasn't easy. a move that many here said he would not do. Yeah I like many would like to see his system tweaked on the offensive side too. I would also like to see a new QB next year if we continue to go down the path we are currently on.

I don't like stinking anymore than almost anyone but I just don't see another option. Also lost in this debate is that it's not easy to recruit a really good QB. Look at Miami, Michigan, LSU until last year where they got extremely lucky. They also hired a once in a lifetime type OC at the recommendation of Sean Payton. There are no givens and countless big programs that have swung and missed repeatedly. They have more bullets to fire but not always the answer either. What is frustrating and disappointing is that we thought Dino's system was more QB friendly and maybe it is but we only really have two QB's that have been given extended minutes to verify. We have seen two former walk ons execute it with some success which makes me wonder about of those 1 scholarship QB's who have run the system

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Other than Kansas I don't think there would be much argument about who has been the worse P5 program of the 2000's. Kansas had that fat dude in the early 2000's that probably saves them but he was not well liked and a tyrant and they ran him off. If you really consider the last run of Big East football wasn't truly P5 it only makes matters worse. With that said if Marrone would have stayed it would have been a much smoother intro to the ACC. He leaves and then we have another setback with Shafer. Dino's record is 23-27 and considering where he started it's not horrible and up until last year had some tough OOC opponents as well ( Please let's not play the game where somebody tries to take away the 10 win season, it happened as did the bad games) Lets also not play the game where this season is a normal schedule so 4-7 would not be a typical 4-7 or worse.

All that said, we need to suck it up and let Dino almost reboot continue build depth and probably switch a few more gears as many long term coaches are given the same opportunity. He has had some success here so it's not like he has shown nothing. I know it's year 5 but year 5 is a season like we have never seen, no lay ups or tune ups, fans etc. I would say after 2022 season if we are still in the same spot then yeah it's probably time to start thinking about making a move. Dino checks every box outside Wins and losses and in today's landscape as well at Syracuse and the fanbase it means a hell of a lot. He's a huge asset to the University and community.

He's obviously going outside the box, recruiting Hawaii and anywhere for that matter, hired a DC from another P5 program etc. He's also moved on from long time assistants who I am sure he had a personal relationship with which I am sure it wasn't easy. a move that many here said he would not do. Yeah I like many would like to see his system tweaked on the offensive side too. I would also like to see a new QB next year if we continue to go down the path we are currently on.

I don't like stinking anymore than almost anyone but I just don't see another option. Also lost in this debate is that it's not easy to recruit a really good QB. Look at Miami, Michigan, LSU until last year where they got extremely lucky. There are no givens and countless big programs that have swung and missed repeatedly. They have more bullets to fire but not always the answer either. What is frustrating and disappointing is that we thought Dino's system was more QB friendly and maybe it is but we only really have two QB's that have been given extended minutes to verify. We have seen two former walk ons execute it with some success which makes me wonder about of those 1 scholarship QB's who have run the system

It is weird. The backup QBs have all looked better within the system than the starter. The problem was always that Mahoney/Welch/Culpepper couldn’t physically make the plays but they know how to make the plays. Dungey/DeVito have trouble e using the system but have the ability to actually physically execute.

 

[nzm136]

Other than Kansas I don't think there would be much argument about who has been the worse P5 program of the 2000's. Kansas had that fat dude in the early 2000's that probably saves them but he was not well liked and a tyrant and they ran him off. If you really consider the last run of Big East football wasn't truly P5 it only makes matters worse. With that said if Marrone would have stayed it would have been a much smoother intro to the ACC. He leaves and then we have another setback with Shafer. Dino's record is 23-27 and considering where he started it's not horrible and up until last year had some tough OOC opponents as well ( Please let's not play the game where somebody tries to take away the 10 win season, it happened as did the bad games) Lets also not play the game where this season is a normal schedule so 4-7 would not be a typical 4-7 or worse.

All that said, we need to suck it up and let Dino almost reboot continue build depth and probably switch a few more gears as many long term coaches are given the same opportunity. He has had some success here so it's not like he has shown nothing. I know it's year 5 but year 5 is a season like we have never seen, no lay ups or tune ups, fans etc. I would say after 2022 season if we are still in the same spot then yeah it's probably time to start thinking about making a move. Dino checks every box outside Wins and losses and in today's landscape as well at Syracuse and the fanbase it means a hell of a lot. He's a huge asset to the University and community.

He's obviously going outside the box, recruiting Hawaii and anywhere for that matter, hired a DC from another P5 program etc. He's also moved on from long time assistants who I am sure he had a personal relationship with which I am sure it wasn't easy. a move that many here said he would not do. Yeah I like many would like to see his system tweaked on the offensive side too. I would also like to see a new QB next year if we continue to go down the path we are currently on.

I don't like stinking anymore than almost anyone but I just don't see another option. Also lost in this debate is that it's not easy to recruit a really good QB. Look at Miami, Michigan, LSU until last year where they got extremely lucky. There are no givens and countless big programs that have swung and missed repeatedly. They have more bullets to fire but not always the answer either. What is frustrating and disappointing is that we thought Dino's system was more QB friendly and maybe it is but we only really have two QB's that have been given extended minutes to verify. We have seen two former walk ons execute it with some success which makes me wonder about of those 1 scholarship QB's who have run the system

The BIG EAST was absolutely a Power Conference. Sure, it was the weakest, but rewriting history to make it anything else simply isn’t true. There were also strong teams in it, even at the end. Pitt and USF fielded competitive teams, and WVU, Louisville, and, to a lesser extent, Cincy fielded really strong teams.

UConn and Rutgers were ... UConn and Rutgers (albeit much better than Temple and Rutgers of the 90’s).

IMHO, it wasn’t a bad league. It just didn’t have any elite, name brand programs.But it was absolutely literally and competitively not a BCS conference.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

The BIG EAST was absolutely a Power Conference. Sure, it was the weakest, but rewriting history to make it anything else simply isn’t true. There were also strong teams in it, even at the end. Pitt and USF fielded competitive teams, and WVU, Louisville, and, to a lesser extent, Cincy fielded really strong teams.

UConn and Rutgers were ... UConn and Rutgers (albeit much better than Temple and Rutgers of the 90’s).

IMHO, it wasn’t a bad league. It just didn’t have any elite, name brand programs.But it was absolutely literally and competitively not a BCS conference.

It's worthy of a debate, I would argue that any conference that sends UCONN to the BCS bowl really isn't a P5 conference

 

[IthacaBarrel]

It is weird. The backup QBs have all looked better within the system than the starter. The problem was always that Mahoney/Welch/Culpepper couldn’t physically make the plays but they know how to make the plays. Dungey/DeVito have trouble e using the system but have the ability to actually physically execute.

Very weird to say the least, which makes me feel like we haven't found our guy yet. ( Clearly we have not) We need guys like Mahoney and Welch with a bit better skill set and I think we might see something take off. Sounds crazy but I got thinking about it a few days ago. Babers clearly modifed it for Dungey

 

[721Comstock]

Very weird to say the least, which makes me feel like we haven't found our guy yet. ( Clearly we have not) We need guys like Mahoney and Welch with a bit better skill set and I think we might see something take off. Sounds crazy but I got thinking about it a few days ago. Babers clearly modifed it for Dungey

I think Dungey modified it for Dungey.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I think Dungey modified it for Dungey.

Now that I wouldn't disagree with one bit

 

[nzm136]

It's worthy of a debate, I would argue that any conference that sends UCONN to the BCS bowl really isn't a P5 conference

Well, there was no P5, but there were BCS/Power Conferences, and the BIG EAST was one. That’s not debatable.

The BIG EAST also fielded competitive teams. That’s my opinion, so you can debate it all you want, but there is strong evidence to support it. As for UConn, black swan events happen. It’s not like they tore through the conference. Going by memory, they backed into it via a 3-4 way tie.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Well, there was no P5, but there were BCS/Power Conferences, and the BIG EAST was one. That’s not debatable.

The BIG EAST also fielded competitive teams. That’s my opinion, so you can debate it all you want, but there is strong evidence to support it. As for UConn, black swan events happen. It’s not like they tore through the conference. Going by memory, they backed into it via a 3-4 way tie.

I disagree but that's fine. felt scabby to me

 

[Nicknack]

You joined the board in 2011. Do we really need to go over again what all the unique challenges are? I'll start. Recruiting. The state of North Carolina has 14 4-star kids this season. New York has 2.

The #3 rated kid in New York has the same rating as the #167 rated kid in Florida or whatever Gadsen's rating is. New York has no talent pool to draw from.

Uh yeah, that's why I asked. Not sure why when I joined the board matters but whatever.

So your answer is that we don't have as much talent in NY as Florida or Texas? Okay, thanks for blowing my mind. I'm sure Babers and other head coaches who have come here have been really surprised by this fact as well. Wow.

Of course it's a disadvantage, but unique? That was my question... what is so unique about Syracuse that catches head coaches by surprise (as was stated earlier in this thread, hence my question).

 

[syrBossHogg]

Uh yeah, that's why I asked. Not sure why when I joined the board matters but whatever.

So your answer is that we don't have as much talent in NY as Florida or Texas? Okay, thanks for blowing my mind. I'm sure Babers and other head coaches who have come here have been really surprised by this fact as well. Wow.

Of course it's a disadvantage, but unique? That was my question... what is so unique about Syracuse that catches head coaches by surprise (as was stated earlier in this thread, hence my question).

I'd say in addition to not being close to good recruiting areas, SU being a small/medium sized private university in a small city is also a disadvantage.

 

[nzm136]

I'd say in addition to not being close to good recruiting areas, SU being a small private university in a small city is also a disadvantage.

The private component is overblown.

im not sure I’d call SU “small,” either. It’s certainly not Ohio State or Penn State, but it’s definitely not Wake. I’d call it medium, but maybe I’m optimistic and/or parsing too much.

 

[Bayside44]

Uh yeah, that's why I asked. Not sure why when I joined the board matters but whatever.

So your answer is that we don't have as much talent in NY as Florida or Texas? Okay, thanks for blowing my mind. I'm sure Babers and other head coaches who have come here have been really surprised by this fact as well. Wow.

Of course it's a disadvantage, but unique? That was my question... what is so unique about Syracuse that catches head coaches by surprise (as was stated earlier in this thread, hence my question).

Or North Carolina, or Virginia, or Georgia, or New Jersey,,,having time go a 6 hour minimum to find kids is unique to our peer group.

 

[syrBossHogg]

The private component is overblown.

im not sure I’d call SU “small,” either. It’s certainly not Ohio State or Penn State, but it’s definitely not Wake. I’d call it medium, but maybe I’m optimistic and/or parsing too much.

Yeah medium is prolly more appropriate actually.

 

[nzm136]

Or North Carolina, or Virginia, or Georgia, or New Jersey,,,having time go a 6 hour minimum to find kids is unique to our peer group.

What’s interesting is seeing the % of kids from the northeast from Syracuse vs BC and Pitt.

Depending how you define “northeast,” we’re around 50% vs 65% for BC, and I haven’t broken out Pitt, but I think they’re higher.

I’m not sure what it means, but we get far more southern recruits than our neighbors and peers.

 

[TheCusian]

Our limitations explain why we are not Top 25 consistently. But you can argue that we are the worst P5 program of the 2000s. That shouldn't be happening. We have enough to work with to be a consistent Top 60 program.

If Babers can recruit decently (which by all indications he has been lately) and we start seeing these kids make an impact on the field, then he should get a longer leash even with a poor record. The D talent he has brought in has looked pretty good. The O talent is very concerning though. The OL is a mess. The RBs and WRs do not seem ACC level. The QB has struggled and we have no one the compete with him. It is early in the season so maybe we start seeing some young guys get PT as the year goes on. But if the rest of this year and next year are more of the same in regards to O talent, it will be very worrisome.

that conversation begins and starts with Kansas. It’s not close. They lose to everyone

 

[Nicknack]

Or North Carolina, or Virginia, or Georgia, or New Jersey,,,having time go a 6 hour minimum to find kids is unique to our peer group.

Again, my ORIGINAL question is what is so unique that head coaches coming to SU didn't realize until they got here? I'm not suggesting we don't have a lot of disadvantages. My question was regarding an earlier post about head coaches coming and then realizing they didn't know certain things before they got here. Any coach who takes on this position who doesn't understand the geographical/talent issue is beyond help. I don't think for a second Babers or anyone else (maybe not Grob) knew this challenge existed.

 

[PhatOrange]

Again, my ORIGINAL question is what is so unique that head coaches coming to SU didn't realize until they got here? I'm not suggesting we don't have a lot of disadvantages. My question was regarding an earlier post about head coaches coming and then realizing they didn't know certain things before they got here. Any coach who takes on this position who doesn't understand the geographical/talent issue is beyond help. I don't think for a second Babers or anyone else (maybe not Grob) knew this challenge existed.

how about university commitment, fan apathy and booster donations/charitable giving?

 

[PhatOrange]

The private component is overblown.

im not sure I’d call SU “small,” either. It’s certainly not Ohio State or Penn State, but it’s definitely not Wake. I’d call it medium, but maybe I’m optimistic and/or parsing too much.

The private component is definitely not overblown. There’s no State funding for one, and we don’t have the alumni numbers. Michigan for example has generations upon generations worth of alumni, all giving, buying tickets, merchandise and competing to get into school there. Every kid in the state grows up looking to go to Michigan or MSU.

 

[Bayside44]

Again, my ORIGINAL question is what is so unique that head coaches coming to SU didn't realize until they got here? I'm not suggesting we don't have a lot of disadvantages. My question was regarding an earlier post about head coaches coming and then realizing they didn't know certain things before they got here. Any coach who takes on this position who doesn't understand the geographical/talent issue is beyond help. I don't think for a second Babers or anyone else (maybe not Grob) knew this challenge existed.

Marrone even went overboard with the New York stuff. He was really good but think he overestimated that one.

 

[syrBossHogg]

Again, my ORIGINAL question is what is so unique that head coaches coming to SU didn't realize until they got here? I'm not suggesting we don't have a lot of disadvantages. My question was regarding an earlier post about head coaches coming and then realizing they didn't know certain things before they got here. Any coach who takes on this position who doesn't understand the geographical/talent issue is beyond help. I don't think for a second Babers or anyone else (maybe not Grob) knew this challenge existed.

I think coaches realize the disadvantages SU has compared to other similar schools. They also realize how long it will take to improve and rebuild the program.

 

[Nicknack]

how about university commitment, fan apathy and booster donations/charitable giving?

Thank you. That's what I was asking for. That said, I still think a head coach at this level could spend a few hours doing a bit of due diligence and know those challenges without being surprised. Look at me, I just spent 15 minutes and now I know.

 

[CapitalO]

Exactly why I want to hang onto Dino as long as we can. There's no one that we're going to bring in that's better. How's Les Miles working out for Kansas? No one is a guaranteed success. Dino won 10 games in a season here. I'd give him AT LEAST 2 more years before he'd go on the hot seat.

My god even ( during ) the 10 - 3 season we all were worried sick that a big p5 program was going to swoop up Dino and give him the big contract with the big $$$ I feel Dino is the right man for this program , one thing we must remember Dino brought all of his assistant coaches with him and this was their first time in the p5 world, we lost a good recruiter / OC/QB coach in Lewis who took the Kent state head coaching job and after year 4 Dino fired DC. Ward assistant coach McCloud and demoted OC Lynch to RB. coach and LB. coach Stanard left on his own ( i think ) I feel very good about our new DC. Tony White and I understand the situation Gilbert is in we have a very bad OL. ( right now ) that hopefully improves as the season goes on and that limits his play calling very much, as per assistant coachs West and Achuff i feel very good with them on boardas we have seen a major uptick in our recruiting since this new staff has been put together.

 

[nzm136]

The private component is definitely not overblown. There’s no State funding for one, and we don’t have the alumni numbers. Michigan for example has generations upon generations worth of alumni, all giving, buying tickets, merchandise and competing to get into school there. Every kid in the state grows up looking to go to Michigan or MSU.

Alumni have nothing to do with private vs public, so that argument is moot.

State funding is dubious, too. Many athletic depts don’t get gov funding (aside from maybe state appropriations for scholarships to instate students), and it’s not like SU hasn’t gotten/been offered an occasional acorn for state and local governments.