I am sure I will get killed for this

[Bayside44]

Alumni have nothing to do with private vs public, so that argument is moot.

State funding is dubious, too. Many athletic depts don’t get gov funding (aside from maybe state appropriations for scholarships to instate students), and it’s not like SU hasn’t gotten/been offered an occasional acorn for state and local governments.

Public schools tend to have a lot more alumni that live closer to the school and are more engaged.

 

[CapitalO]

I'd say in addition to not being close to good recruiting areas, SU being a small/medium sized private university in a small city is also a disadvantage.

As far as recruiting in our back yard yes it is difficult to find a lot of talent and the ones that have a lot of talent usually head of the high profile schools, as soon as we can put together some winning seasons this task will become easier to get those recruits , in the mean time Dino and staff has covered beyond the continental USA. to receive some very interesting commitments for the 2021 class, this program has struggled to bring impact recruits for many years even during the glory days, I feel in order to make up for the higher profile high school recruits we don't get we should look into the transfer portal and juco prospects a bit more , I am not saying bring in a full class of them because at times there tends to be reasons why they are in a juco or the transfer portal, for example if we have around 25 scholarships for a class about 20 should be for high school seniors and a handful should be for quality transfers.

 

[nzm136]

Public schools tend to have a lot more alumni that live closer to the school and are more engaged.

Isn’t number of alumni covered by school size?

As far as students living in state, sure, but it’s not exactly like Syracuse has a huge vacuum that sucks alumni far away. How many kids from Penn State do you think end up in NYC?

(I know PSU is massive. My point is simply that certain cities are magnets for recent grads. We have one of those magnets in state, which at least partially negates the advantages of concentrated student bases from instate tuition breaks.)

My belief is that there are a lot of rules of thumb which are blindly applied. SU isn't like most private schools. SU is much bigger than most private schools, and it exists in an environment that’s conducive to a “townie” fanbase.

We are an outlier in the northeast (see Colgate, Cornell, Nova, etc.), and the major private schools in the regions existed before a strong public school system could be developed, which makes the region an outlier.

Are we Alabama? No, but how many other schools are?

Is our AD on par with many public schools in power conferences? I certainly think so, and I think many public schools would count their lucky stars to trade athletic departments with us.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

how about university commitment, fan apathy and booster donations/charitable giving?

Booster donations is a very big issue for sure

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Thank you. That's what I was asking for. That said, I still think a head coach at the level could spend a few hours doing a bit of due diligence and know those challenges without being surprised. Look at me, I just spent 15 minutes and now I know.

Yep, and then when you take the job everything you were told is an issue is 5x worse. That's the point. Coaches know the challenges for the most part but I think they are all surprised to to the extent once they are in the thick of it. That's the point. It happens a lot in all aspects of business. Successful CEO takes over distressed company and can't turn it around as he/she can't overcome inherent obstacles that previous leadership couldn't either. Everyone who is successful usually thinks that can turn things around but not always the case. Also these things usually take time, money, etc. Not many miracles out there. Also when coaches are interviewing for the job, I am sure that they are made to feel like said challenges can be overcome with the right people, etc. The sales pitch goes both ways

This is what has happened at Syracuse for past 15-20 years. So yeah if Dino can't do it, the odds that the next guy can are certainly not very good either. And in 2-3 years people will be looking for the next guy, bitching about play calling, lack of recruiting and hoping for another miracle. Some people were sick of Marrone after he lost 5 straight his 3rd year too. And the next guy won't be good enough either and the guy after that...

 

[PhatOrange]

Alumni have nothing to do with private vs public, so that argument is moot.

State funding is dubious, too. Many athletic depts don’t get gov funding (aside from maybe state appropriations for scholarships to instate students), and it’s not like SU hasn’t gotten/been offered an occasional acorn for state and local governments.

huh? They have nothing to with it, the argument is moot? could you explain what you mean by this? I lived in two large State U states before so I’m drawing on personal experiences so maybe we’re not on the same page and arguing two different points.

Also, you know what would get state funding? Things like player housing.

 

[Bayside44]

Isn’t number of alumni covered by school size?

As far as students living in state, sure, but it’s not exactly like Syracuse has a huge vacuum that sucks alumni far away. How many kids from Penn State do you think end up in NYC?

(I know PSU is massive. My point is simply that certain cities are magnets for recent grads. We have one of those magnets in state, which at least partially negates the advantages of concentrated student bases from instate tuition breaks.)

My belief is that there are a lot of rules of thumb which are blindly applied. SU isn't like most private schools. SU is much bigger than most private schools, and it exists in an environment that’s conducive to a “townie” fanbase.

We are an outlier in the northeast (see Colgate, Cornell, Nova, etc.), and the major private schools in the regions existed before a strong public school system could be developed, which makes the region an outlier.

Are we Alabama? No, but how many other schools are?

Is our AD on par with many public schools in power conferences? I certainly think so, and I think many public schools would count their lucky stars to trade athletic departments with us.

I'd argue that SU alumni do get sucked far away, in comparison to places like UNC, NC State, UVa, Maryland, tOSU, etc...can draw a 90 minute circle around those places and the majority of their alumni are there. So their lives revolve around the school a lot more. Living in ACC land I see it with UVa, UNC, Clemson. Maryland is like that.

I agree though that we have uniquely good city and regional fan support to offset that. Not sure that plays in donations as well.

 

[dollarbill44]

I'd argue that SU alumni do get sucked far away, in comparison to places like UNC, NC State, UVa, Maryland, tOSU, etc...can draw a 90 minute circle around those places and the majority of their alumni are there. So their lives revolve around the school a lot more. Living in ACC land I see it with UVa, UNC, Clemson. Maryland is like that.

I agree though that we have uniquely good city and regional fan support to offset that. Not sure that plays in donations as well.

And I would bet there is a correlation between number and frequency of visits to one's alma mater and donations and proximity of alumni plays a significant role. As someone who goes back to SU a handful of times each year, it does keep my passion for SU strong. I seem to remember something new each time I go back, like, "I'm pretty sure I vomited there and over there is where Doug passed out on the way back from Bragg's during that big November snow".

 

[SanDiegoCuse]

The earliest his seat becomes warm is late next year.

Agreed 100%! And if we are playing the “what if” game we could have easily been 7-5 last year with the worst offensive line in the country.

 

[Nicknack]

I hear what everyone is saying about the challenges of Syracuse football. No doubt those challenges are real. However, let's not lose sight that prior to the 2000's, we were a model of consistency for a fairly long stretch of time under Paul and partially MacPherson. We were still able to compete at a high level despite being a private school, tucked up in NY, alumni apathy, lack of commitment from the university, etc. Point being, it can obviously be done.

 

[721Comstock]

I hear what everyone is saying about the challenges of Syracuse football. No doubt those challenges are real. However, let's not lose sight that prior to the 2000's, we were a model of consistency for a fairly long stretch of time under Paul and partially MacPherson. We were still able to compete at a high level despite being a private school, tucked up in NY, alumni apathy, lack of commitment from the university, etc. Point being, it can obviously be done.

What happened “prior to the 2000’s” is ancient history now;
due to the seismic shifts in the sports landscape since then.

If you look at the long term arc of Syracuse football over the past century, the only thing consistent was mediocrity, with 2 bright periods of success & relevance.

Sadly - Syracuse being good at football is the exception, not the rule.

 

[Nicknack]

What happened “prior to the 2000’s” is ancient history now;
due to the seismic shifts in the sports landscape since then.

If you look at the long term arc of Syracuse football over the past century, the only thing consistent was mediocrity, with 2 bright periods of success & relevance.

Sadly - Syracuse being good at football is the exception, not the rule.

I love when people talk in generalities. It allows them to make points without really saying anything. That way, nothing can really be challenged.

 

[721Comstock]

I love when people talk in generalities. It allows them to make points without really saying anything. That way, nothing can really be challenged.

Ok, I’ll be more specific:

look at the W/L records for Syracuse Football since WWII.

List of Syracuse Orange football seasons - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

With the EXCEPTION two periods of time (late 50’s - late 60’s, late ‘80’s - ‘01) -
Syracuse Football has been meh. At best.

That’s the norm.
NOT the Top-25 ranked teams.

Yes, occasionally the stars align for Syracuse Football to not suck.
Having those *exceptions* as your base expectation will set you up for a lifetime of disappointment.

Is that specific enough for you?

 

[TheCusian]

I love when people talk in generalities. It allows them to make points without really saying anything. That way, nothing can really be challenged.

Since P and Mac, we got left at the alter after our first date with the ACC, conferences got realigned, TV money started flowing to schools in the major conferences, we made a terrible hire that set us back 10 years, followed by a lack of money and decaying football facilities, finally got added to the ACC and made another kinda bad hire by a kinda bad AD... and we’re here.

We have an engaging HC, a seemingly good AD, and a needed and overdue facelift to the Dome. In short, things are looking up but prob not at the pace of those who both have lived through Mac and P and the last 20+ years of horrible

 

[baggerbob]

Since P and Mac, we got left at the alter after our first date with the ACC, conferences got realigned, TV money started flowing to schools in the major conferences, we made a terrible hire that set us back 10 years, followed by a lack of money and decaying football facilities, finally got added to the ACC and made another kinda bad hire by a kinda bad AD... and we’re here.

We have an engaging HC, a seemingly good AD, and a needed and overdue facelift to the Dome. In short, things are looking up but prob not at the pace of those who both have lived through Mac and P and the last 20+ years of horrible

Some of us were around for most of Ben's years, Steve for one.

 

[orangecuse]

I hear what everyone is saying about the challenges of Syracuse football. No doubt those challenges are real. However, let's not lose sight that prior to the 2000's, we were a model of consistency for a fairly long stretch of time under Paul and partially MacPherson. We were still able to compete at a high level despite being a private school, tucked up in NY, alumni apathy, lack of commitment from the university, etc. Point being, it can obviously be done.

I agree with your sentiment. The challenges are real & in some instances significant. But I look at what Marrone was able to accomplish after the program fell into the abyss (Grob era), combined with the years of lacked commitment from the University into the football program.

The ACC gift of a lifetime and winfall that graced the university changed that, as SU afterwards has at least spent some coin to compete at the P5 level. I can only imagine what Marrone might have been able to do with SU's commitment, as when he was there things that he knew SU significantly lacked and stressed to the administration was needed to compete was "someday" even with someday being a day late and a dollar short.

I'm a Dino fan relative to his good impression, etc. and as an ambassador for SU. However, I'm not so much when it comes to results on the field, with 3 out of 4 losing seasons and year 5 seemingly looking like another losing one. At the end of the day, he was hired and is paid very handsomely to win football games...period! I don't get the 'if Dino can't do it then no one can sentiment.' It's not as if he is some long time established head coach with a consistently long track record of winning.

His first gig was at Eastern Illinois (clearly turning around that program) on the coat tails of a high level NFL qb. He then left for Bowling Green, where he simply maintained the status quo of what was built by the current Wake Forest coach in Claussen the two years in which he was there. Babers only had 4 years of head coaching experience prior to taking on the SU job. Therefore, in year 5, his time as head coach at Syracuse is greater than the totality of his prior head coaching experience...at nearly 60 years of age.

I really want Dino to win as I think stability matters (I know this all too well as a die hard Browns fan where the Browns have had anything but stability in the past 2 decades as well) but in my opinion, the jury clearly is still out, especially with his lack of any long track record of success as a head coach. If Dino continues to fail, then I don't think that just because he didn't succeed here SU might as well just fold up their tent and forget about it...being deemed a lost cause.

 

[TheCusian]

I’m def not in the camp of “if he can’t do it, we’re screwed” ... but I do think people are underselling his accomplishments.

Do a quick search for coaches who’ve beaten Clemson since their dominance began. Short list.

Do a quick search of Syracuse HC with wins over a top 3 team in the polls. Short list.

Do a quick search of Syracuse HC with a 10 win season. Short list.

 

[orangecuse]

I’m def not in the camp of “if he can’t do it, we’re screwed” ... but I do think people are underselling his accomplishments.

Do a quick search for coaches who’ve beaten Clemson since their dominance began. Short list.

Do a quick search of Syracuse HC with wins over a top 3 team in the polls. Short list.

Do a quick search of Syracuse HC with a 10 win season. Short list.

I don't know if people are "underselling" those accomplishments or not, that is your thinking. I guess one could easily say that you may be 'overselling' that? Beating Clemson no doubt was magnificent, but SU did go on to lose all 5 of its remaining games afterwards. The W over VPI was sensational as well, except for the 1970's looking locker room celebration that was somewhat cringeworthy.

Upsets happen in sports all the time, and those were simply that, upsets. I don't think in year 5, Dino's MO of 'consistently good and occasionally great' is meeting his own expectations, let alone the majority of the fan base. Especially, if year 5 ends up being another losing season, which would be 4 out of his 5 here to date. In my opinion, that would meet the definition of consistently poor.

 

[anomander]

What happened “prior to the 2000’s” is ancient history now;
due to the seismic shifts in the sports landscape since then.

If you look at the long term arc of Syracuse football over the past century, the only thing consistent was mediocrity, with 2 bright periods of success & relevance.

Sadly - Syracuse being good at football is the exception, not the rule.

you’re right. Pre 2000 might as well be 1959 for all that matters in today’s landscape. So much has changed in the sport. We don’t have some of the luxuries we had then.

as for Dino we have to keep him here and see what happens. I don’t know who we’re going to bring in that’s better? Plus the idea of starting over again makes me sick. I dont know how many more rebuilds I have in me?

 

[TheCusian]

I don't know if people are "underselling" those accomplishments or not, that is your thinking. I guess one could easily say that you may be 'overselling' that? Beating Clemson no doubt was magnificent, but SU did go on to lose all 5 of its remaining games afterwards. The W over VPI was sensational as well, except for the 1970's looking locker room celebration that was somewhat cringeworthy.

Upsets happen in sports all the time, and those were simply that, upsets. I don't think in year 5, Dino's MO of 'consistently good and occasionally great' is meeting his own expectations, let alone the majority of the fan base. Especially, if year 5 ends up being another losing season, which would be 4 out of his 5 here to date. In my opinion, that would meet the definition of consistently poor.

Good points. Note that I’m not saying we should be ecstatic with those metrics and happy with 4-5 win seasons. But those “common” upsets don’t happen here that often, especially in the last 20+ years. I think it’s fairly obvious that DB is more Marrone than Robinson.

I don’t think I’m overselling those things at all given our history. They stand out. I’d like to see more “consistently good.” But, that’s even more of a rarity than the “occasionally great” we’ve experienced under Dino.

 

[Nicknack]

Ok, I’ll be more specific:

look at the W/L records for Syracuse Football since WWII.

List of Syracuse Orange football seasons - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

With the EXCEPTION two periods of time (late 50’s - late 60’s, late ‘80’s - ‘01) -
Syracuse Football has been meh. At best.

That’s the norm.
NOT the Top-25 ranked teams.

Yes, occasionally the stars align for Syracuse Football to not suck.
Having those *exceptions* as your base expectation will set you up for a lifetime of disappointment.

Is that specific enough for you?

Yes, thanks!

 

[nzm136]

huh? They have nothing to with it, the argument is moot? could you explain what you mean by this? I lived in two large State U states before so I’m drawing on personal experiences so maybe we’re not on the same page and arguing two different points.

Also, you know what would get state funding? Things like player housing.

Sure. Small public school = not many alumni, large public school = many alumni; small private school = not many alumni, large private school = many alumni

The public/private status of the school has nothing to do with alumni. That’s a big school vs small school issue, not a public vs private issue.

Clemson =23.4 (2016)
Syracuse = 22.5K (2017)

Their students don’t get to count more because they’re public.

If you want to argue alumni concentration like some other poster did, then I’d be inclined to agree. It will be different at public schools and private schools because of in-state reimbursements. But alumni counts in the abstract are not different at similarly-sized institutions.

And the housing is usually paid for by private donations or (I would assume) proceeds from various elements of the endowment. I’m sure it’s *slightly* different for each state, but the public school that I went to only got state appropriations for tuition assistance for in-state students. I doubt there are many instances of the state of X stepping in and funding athletic dorms.

 

[newmexicuse]

I think we need to look at upside potential v downside risk if we were to make a coaching change. There is a lot of downside risk IMHO.I think Dino is improving the program by microscopic increments. A top notch QB would make a big difference. Why hasn't Dino found that guy ? I think we need to get past mediocre DiVito and see if Lamson or the next QB gets it done. if not, time for a change. I think Dino deserves one more shot at getting the right QB, after all, he won w Dungey.

 

[CanadianSU]

Hmmm

 

[NineOneSeven]

WE HANDED THE BALL OFF DOWN 11 ON THIRD AND 11