I think there's too much precipice fear here

[Millhouse]

we had the worst coach and team ever and have been ok ever since with 3 bowl victories. every time anything goes a little haywire, we freak out that that this is the pivotal moment

it's really not. a million schools have a million coaching changes and the same programs stay where they are - lots of inertia in college football good and bad.

it's the only good thing we've learned from gerg is to not sweat it so much. if he couldn't destroy the program, we're probably going to be ok now

 

[storange]

I had to look up the word precipice, but I agree.

 

[RF2044]

we had the worst coach and team ever and have been ok ever since with 3 bowl victories. every time anything goes a little haywire, we freak out that that this is the pivotal moment

it's really not. a million schools have a million coaching changes and the same programs stay where they are - lots of inertia in college football good and bad.

it's the only good thing we've learned from gerg is to not sweat it so much. if he couldn't destroy the program, we're probably going to be ok now

That's one way to look at it. Here's another--it took a herculean effort from Marrone to get us even on the outskirts of the neighborhood of respectibility post-GRob. We were literally the worst P5 program in college football. At the end of his four years, we still weren't recruiting all that well, and we didn't necessarily have replacements lined up for Nassib / Lemon / Sales. And with all that, we still only got to the 7-8 win plateau.

Marrone left with the job unfinished--with the program literally teetering on the precipice that you're denying. We could very easily backslide into losing football. That's why I was encouraged by this staff's first season--it wasn't great by any means, but the team rallied and showed lots of promise for the future. In other words, they looked like a crew that could take the rebuild, build upon the foundation that Marrone established, and quite possibly get us to the next level. In year two, they've pretty much dispelled that notion.

I hope they turn things around, I really do. But I think we're a lot closer to the losing football end of the scale than we are to top 25 as things stand today. Sorry, but that's how I see it. I have very little confidence in Shafer right now, and starting over with a new staff seems like we'd take additional steps backwards before we'd be able to hopefully move forward.

 

[upperdeck]

teams in much better spots than us are struggling way worse, we just see our dark side and ignore the issues others have.. UL was a top 10 team preseason to many.. did anyone see UL or ND teams as dominate or more that we just make too many mistakes.. the leap from avg to top 20 is very short. in many cases its one special player..

flip the maryland game and we are right where everyone expected/hoped us to be, 3-3 after the FSU game. we could be 1-4 or 4-1 right now and all would be happy as clams. the margin is just as slim to go down as to go back up.

 

[Millhouse]

That's one way to look at it. Here's another--it took a herculean effort from Marrone to get us even on the outskirts of the neighborhood of respectibility post-GRob. We were literally the worst P5 program in college football. At the end of his four years, we still weren't recruiting all that well, and we didn't necessarily have replacements lined up for Nassib / Lemon / Sales. And with all that, we still only got to the 7-8 win plateau.

Marrone left with the job unfinished--with the program literally teetering on the precipice that you're denying. We could very easily backslide into losing football. That's why I was encouraged by this staff's first season--it wasn't great by any means, but the team rallied and showed lots of promise for the future. In other words, they looked like a crew that could take the rebuild, build upon the foundation that Marrone established, and quite possibly get us to the next level. In year two, they've pretty much dispelled that notion.

I hope they turn things around, I really do. But I think we're a lot closer to the losing football end of the scale than we are to top 25 as things stand today. Sorry, but that's how I see it. I have very little confidence in Shafer right now.

marrone isn't herculean. he's barely more than just a guy. we should stop worrying so much

 

[RF2044]

marrone isn't herculean. he's barely more than just a guy. we should stop worrying so much

You dislike him because you didn't like his offensive gameplan here, and now you're mad that he's the bills HC.

To take that crap team he inherited from GRob and coach them to bowl eligibility--and a win--in his second year was nothing short of miraculous.

 

[Millhouse]

You dislike him because you didn't like his offensive gameplan here, and now you're mad that he's the bills HC.

To take that crap team he inherited from GRob and coach them to bowl eligibility--and a win--in his second year was nothing short of miraculous.

i guess the miracles stopped last year when he went 6-10 just like every other bills coach. i guess mularkey, chan gailey and jauron are miracle workers too. i'd be thrilled if the bills go 10-6. that would make him .500. he's ok.

gerg really sucks. regression to the mean tells you more about him than marrone

 

[RF2044]

i guess the miracles stopped last year when he went 6-10 just like every other bills coach. i guess mularkey, chan gailey and jauron are miracle workers too

gerg really sucks. regression to the mean tells you more about him than marrone

We're talking about what he did at Syracuse in year 2, not the Bills. And it seems like your bias against Marrone prevents you from ever acknowledging anything good he accomplished here.

Look, I'm not suggesting that he finished the job, or that we were anything more than approaching average while he was here. But "average" was a world away from where we were when he took over. Remember when we were in ESPN's bottom 10 list seemingly every week under GRob?

And he left the job unfinished, probably leaving two years early before we were on more solid footing. And because of that, he handed the team off to a coaching staff that may or may not be up to the challenge of taking the next step. If that's not teetering on the precipice, I don't know what is.

 

[Millhouse]

We're talking about what he did at Syracuse in year 2, not the Bills.

it's not relevant to determining whether the guy is a miracle worker?

 

[RF2044]

it's not relevant to determining whether the guy is a miracle worker?

It has zero applicability to what he accomplished in his second year at the helm of SU, which is what we were talking about. Also, I didn't labeled him a "miracle worker." I said that it took a herculean effort to coach that team to a bowl win. I personally do believe that it was miraculous not only that we qualified for bowl eligibility, but were able to win it that year, with that collection of talent. Especially given that we had to win two road games en route to qualifying against two heavily favored teams. Acknowledging that doesn't imply that I think Marrone is turning water into wine or healing the blind on the weekends.

 

[NKR1978]

That's one way to look at it. Here's another--it took a herculean effort from Marrone to get us even on the outskirts of the neighborhood of respectibility post-GRob. We were literally the worst P5 program in college football. At the end of his four years, we still weren't recruiting all that well, and we didn't necessarily have replacements lined up for Nassib / Lemon / Sales. And with all that, we still only got to the 7-8 win plateau.

Marrone left with the job unfinished--with the program literally teetering on the precipice that you're denying. We could very easily backslide into losing football. That's why I was encouraged by this staff's first season--it wasn't great by any means, but the team rallied and showed lots of promise for the future. In other words, they looked like a crew that could take the rebuild, build upon the foundation that Marrone established, and quite possibly get us to the next level. In year two, they've pretty much dispelled that notion.

I hope they turn things around, I really do. But I think we're a lot closer to the losing football end of the scale than we are to top 25 as things stand today. Sorry, but that's how I see it. I have very little confidence in Shafer right now, and starting over with a new staff seems like we'd take additional steps backwards before we'd be able to hopefully move forward.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think the overall situation is much better than what Marrone inherited. As much of a dumpster fire as things appear right now, there is talent on the team. We are in a stable conference. We should have more money. Also, don't think other coaches would hold it against us if we cut the cord with Shafer after year two. He was kind of forced on us with Marrone's late decision to leave and anyone could see that he is given a short leash.

My biggest concern is that SU will always handle the football program (and basketball once JB retires) in the cheapest way possible. I just don't think the University is committed to winning and that's depressing.

 

[TheCusian]

we had the worst coach and team ever and have been ok ever since with 3 bowl victories. every time anything goes a little haywire, we freak out that that this is the pivotal moment

it's really not. a million schools have a million coaching changes and the same programs stay where they are - lots of inertia in college football good and bad.

it's the only good thing we've learned from gerg is to not sweat it so much. if he couldn't destroy the program, we're probably going to be ok now

Couldn't agree more. I think the freakout has been funny actually - "Oh my! We couldn't score the ball with a mediocre QB vs two top ten defenses!"

We are simply not as good as our expectations for this season. We are much, much better - and still not far off from a 6 win season.

 

[Millhouse]

It has zero applicability to what he accomplished in his second year at the helm of SU, which is what we were talking about. Also, I didn't labeled him a "miracle worker." I said that it took a herculean effort to coach that team to a bowl win. I personally do believe that it was miraculous not only that we qualified for bowl eligibility, but were able to win it that year, with that collection of talent. Especially given that we had to win two road games en route to qualifying against two heavily favored teams. Acknowledging that doesn't imply that I think Marrone is turning water into wine or healing the blind on the weekends.

i didn't think it was that much of a stretch, you called what he did nothing short of miraculous

 

[Chip]

You dislike him because you didn't like his offensive gameplan here, and now you're mad that he's the bills HC.

To take that crap team he inherited from GRob and coach them to bowl eligibility--and a win--in his second year was nothing short of miraculous.

While that's true, what happened in year 2 was largely due to 2 things, 1) a complete attitude change for the team, 2) defense. Marrone gets all the credit for both because he's the one who changed the attitude of the team, and he's the one who picked Shafer.

Having said that, I think there are probably a lot of football coaches who could have done it. We just got so completely deflated by the one guy who couldn't.

I don't think it would be hard to keep Syracuse at this mediocre, 5-7 win level level. I think you really have to hire a dud to return it to where it was under GRob (given that we've got more to sell now), but I also think you have to hit it out of the park to get to a 9 win type of program here.

 

[RF2044]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think the overall situation is much better than what Marrone inherited. As much of a dumpster fire as things appear right now, there is talent on the team. We are in a stable conference. We should have more money. Also, don't think other coaches would hold it against us if we cut the cord with Shafer after year two. He was kind of forced on us with Marrone's late decision to leave and anyone could see that he is given a short leash.

My biggest concern is that SU will always handle the football program (and basketball once JB retires) in the cheapest way possible. I just don't think the University is committed to winning and that's depressing.

Agreed. And for those of us who enjoy watching winning football, that's the discouraging aspect of what we're seeing unfold.

Full confession--I was not pro-Shafer when he was hired. I understand why the University did it--they wanted to go the cheap route, and also to try to preserve the coaching staff that had the program trending in the right direction. But when Marrone ransacked the staff anyway, that last factor wasn't accomplished. Most of all, I was concerned about the new staff's ability to game plan, and sustain the momentum that Marrone had begun. I thought that Shafer got off to a solid start last year, and I became more optimisitc that he'd be up to the challenge. But this year has been a huge step backwards.

I don't disagree that the program is in better shape than what Marrone inherited. But the objective isn't just to stay at this level, it was to get back to the top 25 and hopefully be better than that every once in awhile. Starting over every couple of years isn't the way to accomplish that. Nor is making cheap internal hires. And while its been nice to see that our last recruiting class [and the one that they're putting together for the class of 2015] are qualitatively rated higher than our other classes in recent years, losing can undermine that quickly.

So, I guess if the point is that we might not backslide into GRob caliber dysfunction, that might be true. But we sure seemed mired in mediocrity purgatory, and I don't see an easy way out of that quagmire.

 

[Millhouse]

I had to look up the word precipice, but I agree.

you've been making me laugh since saturday. horrible messes that cause you great pain bring out your best

 

[Millhouse]

Couldn't agree more. I think the freakout has been funny actually - "Oh my! We couldn't score the ball with a mediocre QB vs two top ten defenses!"

We are simply not as good as our expectations for this season. We are much, much better - and still not far off from a 6 win season.

i'm all for freaking about mcf***it. he's horrible. i'm against freaking out about what do we do now? we hire someone else who might be better than mcf***it.

 

[SU2NASA]

This is nothing that lots and lots of cheating can't fix.

 

[TheCusian]

i'm all for freaking about mcf***it. he's horrible. i'm against freaking out about what do we do now? we hire someone else who might be better than mcf***it.

Yep. Chance to get better. Shafer pulling the plug now, let's us see what Lester can do - and if he's not up to snuff - go get someone else. Not what you want to have happen - but better than head down with McF***it.

I also want to say this now: If we get destroyed by FSU and "game-day posters" come on and kill Shafer or our freshman QB's - they deserve to get booed down with extreme prejudice. If we're close and lose - flame away. But the expectations should be really low. Have fun - look for signs of progress, root for a big hit on Famous Crablegs and drink yourself silly.

 

[upperdeck]

the financials have changed a ton in the last few years. if we win 4-5 games this year with the starting QB not playing in about 8 of them thats deemed an ok year. we havent lost to a bad team yet. maryland at least has talent on offense. ND is top 5 team.and UL has a solid D. now we probably lose to #1 and clemson who is playing well and might be back in top 15 if they win these next 2.

beat Wake and figure out the gameplan and QB stuff and you can beat NC state and Duke, duke might easily lose the next 4 and if nc state loses to BC they might lose 4 in a row too..

we need to figure out enough offense to beat Wake..

 

[GoSU96]

marrone isn't herculean. he's barely more than just a guy. we should stop worrying so much

You need to get over it. He did an excellent job here the whole time you were screaming how terrible he was. Sort of like Ottoingrotto going on about the wonderful identity the McDonald offense was building, and that was less than a week ago.

I also don't believe things are as terrible as they seem. The yardage numbers are holding or doing better than last year. It's a good indicator of overall capability. They have cratered to Grobian levels in the efficiency measurements, and to me that is fixable.

 

[NKR1978]

So, I guess if the point is that we might not backslide into GRob caliber dysfunction, that might be true. But we sure seemed mired in mediocrity purgatory, and I don't see an easy way out of that quagmire.

The funny thing is that during the Gerg years I was dreaming for the day that we might be mediocre. I'm ok with 5 to 8 wins a year. I figure we're a program where every 4 years we can challenge for a good bowl and once a decade we should have that magical season where we march into Death Valley or Doak and win. Just not sure we'll even get to that and that 2012 might be the high point.

 

[Millhouse]

You need to get over it. He did an excellent job here the whole time you were screaming how terrible he was. Sort of like Ottoingrotto going on about the wonderful identity the McDonald offense was building, and that was less than a week ago.

I also don't believe things are as terrible as they seem. The yardage numbers are holding or doing better than last year. It's a good indicator of overall capability. They have cratered to Grobian levels in the efficiency measurements, and to me that is fixable.

sorry. not going to assume that .500 is excellent and that we were lucky to have had such excellence

 

[Pyle]

Couldn't agree more. I think the freakout has been funny actually - "Oh my! We couldn't score the ball with a mediocre QB vs two top ten defenses!"

We are simply not as good as our expectations for this season. We are much, much better - and still not far off from a 6 win season.

MD is not a top 10 defense.

 

[RF2044]

sorry. not going to assume that .500 is excellent and that we were lucky to have had such excellence

That's not what he was saying--at all. Improvement generally isn't linear, sometimes it happens in bursts. We went from worst team in P5 bar none to approaching average in one putcuated burst in a fairly short amount of time under Marrone. Nobody claims that 7 wins / pintstripe bowl is "excellent," but it was a substantial step in the right direction.