I think were ranked too low | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

I think were ranked too low

Eric15 said:
Be patient, my friend. If we go 2-0 at MSG, we'll scoot up in the rankings and probably be on the cusp of the Top 15. If we go 1-1, our current ranking is appropriate. And if we go 0-2, we don't belong in the Top 25 at this point.
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quite being reasonable already! We've been disrespected I tell you. :mad:
 
Cusefan0307 said:
Kansas is ranked 5th because when is the last time they didn't win their league?
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And we are in a loaded ACC that includes Duke, UNC, Lville, Virginia, ND ect. It certainly has a lot to do with the conferences and recent history. I probably would have had KU over ranked if I did it as well albeit not quite as high.
 
CusefanATL said:
kansas is not that good. and frankly, MSU aint that great either. I dont think Kansas is top 20 to be honest. MSU is decent, and prob pull the Tom Izzo and play best bball at end of year... but right now they arent beating us by 20. Cuse is prob beating Kansas right now. They have looked worse than us through 2 games including a stinker vs a cupcake.
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Michigan State is better than they showed last night. Injuries limited what they could do against Duke. Once they get the guys they have out back they will be better. Kansas prob is overrated. They only won their cupcake game last week by 10. If that happened here we would of melted down.
 
No way Kansas is going to be able to compete against a team like Kentucky with a frontcourt of 6-8, 6-8, 6-8.

Compare that to our frontcourt of 6-8, 6-9, 6-10 including guards listed at 6-3, 6-4, 6-7.
 
CusefanATL said:
kansas is not that good. and frankly, MSU aint that great either. I dont think Kansas is top 20 to be honest. MSU is decent, and prob pull the Tom Izzo and play best bball at end of year... but right now they arent beating us by 20. Cuse is prob beating Kansas right now. They have looked worse than us through 2 games including a stinker vs a cupcake.
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Kansas only won by 10 @ home vs UC Santa Barbara. They obviously lost a ton and are ranked solely based on the name on front of their jersey. Not sure why anyone is surprised by the beating they took last night aside from the final spread.
 
ImperialOrange said:
Kansas only won by 10 @ home vs UC Santa Barbara. They obviously lost a ton and are ranked solely based on the name on front of their jersey. Not sure why anyone is surprised by the beating they took last night aside from the final spread.
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Cliff Alexander and Kelly Oubre were McDonald's All Americans. I'm sure they were expected to make a significant impact this year.
 
Eric15 said:
Be patient, my friend. If we go 2-0 at MSG, we'll scoot up in the rankings and probably be on the cusp of the Top 15. If we go 1-1, our current ranking is appropriate. And if we go 0-2, we don't belong in the Top 25 at this point.
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this is a fair statement. im just throwing out something to talk about. people get all high and mighty on here and say things like "rankings dont matter. its just something for fans to talk about." well, this is a message board, and my perspective of the team is 23 is too low.
 
docsu said:
Cliff Alexander and Kelly Oubre were McDonald's All Americans. I'm sure they were expected to make a significant impact this year.
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And they probably will by seasons end but I'm of the mindset teams should be ranked based on their current state vs guessing at where they're projected to be. Preseason rankings are a pet peeve of mine in both major sports.
 
ImperialOrange said:
And they probably will by seasons end but I'm of the mindset teams should be ranked based on their current state vs guessing at where they're projected to be. Preseason rankings are a pet peeve of mine in both major sports.
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Which is interesting, because Ken Pomeroy has done some work that says the pre-season AP poll is usually pretty good. Though I generally tend to agree with you.

http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/entry/the_value_of_the_preseason_ap_poll_2014_edition
 
Knicks411 said:
Which is interesting, because Ken Pomeroy has done some work that says the pre-season AP poll is usually pretty good. Though I generally tend to agree with you.

http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/entry/the_value_of_the_preseason_ap_poll_2014_edition
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Preseason polls tend to be a self fulfilling prophecy. It's easier to put KU in the top 5 and say "I told you theyd make the tourney" after the fact because they always do vs go out on a limb on a lessor known entity that could be top 5 but is also more likely to miss the tourney. Kansas will make the tourney but if you give that exact roster and current results to K State they wouldn't be ranked #5.

Same way the SEC football teams continuously jump other teams in the polls. Preseason rankings set the precident for SOS which is a big factor in teams rankings. If a mid level SEC team plays a highly ranked SEC team the mid level team get their ranking artificially inflated the week of the game so you can then look back and say "Miss State beat the #2, #6, and #8 teams in the nation!" and disregard the fact that that #2 is now #14 w/ 3 losses, #6 is now unranked w/ 4 losses, and #8 is now unranked w/ 4 losses. The same folks will use the exact opposite agruement vs FSU and state "they haven't beaten a ranked team all season" at the end of the year despite the fact that at the time they played opponents ranked #5, #22, and #25 respectively. TCU has a better resume than Miss State if you take preseason rankings out of the equation, yet Miss State is ranked higher currently as example.
 
Pollsters essentially want to look back at the end of the year and feel vindicated in their rankings. They adjust rankings throughout the season to get them the results they need to make themselves look smart.

It's kind of like citing your own op ed piece you wrote 3 months ago on a thesis you're writing today. You want to prove yourself correct but you're really only citing your own previous opinion and then saying "look how right I am/was!". Pollsters are a group of people in this mindset all looking to vindicate their prior rankings, vs admitting they may in fact be dead wrong.
 
docsu said:
I linked something from kenpom along similar lines in another thread. Made me reconsider my opinion on preseason polls.
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This is a well stated point by Ken POM. Hard to argue against it - that the preseason AP poll is the best assessment of basketball team ranking at the beginning of the season. Individual opinions are worthless. However, the second part of his argument, that these same polls flounder as the season progresses, is unfounded. The obvious point - though unstated - that his system has more merit as the season progresses, is wrong.

Ken-Pom backs up the first part of his argument with a table demonstrating the accuracy of preseason polls vs end of season results over the years. He then shows the same numbers for AP 'end of season rankings' and says - see they how inaccurate they are. However, I would like to see this same table displayed using his own system performance.
 
ImperialOrange said:
Preseason polls tend to be a self fulfilling prophecy. It's easier to put KU in the top 5 and say "I told you theyd make the tourney" after the fact because they always do vs go out on a limb on a lessor known entity that could be top 5 but is also more likely to miss the tourney. Kansas will make the tourney but if you give that exact roster and current results to K State they wouldn't be ranked #5.
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I agree with the second part but not sure about the first.

If the lessor known entity is more likely to miss the tournament than Kansas (or or fill in your blue blood here), then they probably shouldn't be ranked ahead of Kansas.
But sure, there is a lot of inertia in the polls; part of the reason Kansas is ranked highly this year is because they're always good, but then again, they're always good, so they should be ranked highly. Not sure which way the arrow goes on that one. I fully expect Kansas to be great this year though. So..I'm not totally sure what my point is.
 
I have no idea if it's valid, but the logic makes sense.

If Syracuse is #1 and loses by 3 to #15 Duke in Cameron, the voters reflexively drop us from #1. But we could still be the best team in the country. We just played another really good team on the most hostile court in America.
 
docsu said:
I have no idea if it's valid, but the logic makes sense.

If Syracuse is #1 and loses by 3 to #15 Duke in Cameron, the voters reflexively drop us from #1. But we could still be the best team in the country. We just played another really good team on the most hostile court in America.
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Yeah, I think this is why the polls struggle a little once the season starts. If you lose, you pretty much have to drop, regardless of who you lose to.
 
Knicks411 said:
I agree with the second part but not sure about the first.

If the lessor known entity is more likely to miss the tournament than Kansas (or or fill in your blue blood here), then they probably shouldn't be ranked ahead of Kansas.
But sure, there is a lot of inertia in the polls; part of the reason Kansas is ranked highly this year is because they're always good, but then again, they're always good, so they should be ranked highly. Not sure which way the arrow goes on that one. I fully expect Kansas to be great this year though. So..I'm not totally sure what my point is.
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I'm just bringing up discussion points. Honestly, Kansas may end up the #5 team in the country BUT there is no real presmise for why they, SU, or anyone else are ranked where they are preseason thus I'm not a fan. Cetainly is adventageous to start the season ranked higly vs not though. #5 Kansas might drop to #15 Kansas vs #23 Kansas being dropped to unranked. It's easier to maintain a high ranking than to aquire one in the first place. Also easier to be ranked, dropped, and reranked vs unranked in the first place. Thankfully, basketball plays so many games to give us a better big picture view. Football, not as much.

If it was up to me basketball rankings wouldn't come out until December, and football until October. Preseason rankings show too much bias based on name and/or conference recognition.

Here are the football preseason rankings that are currently outliers:

Over ranked
4Oklahoma (1)
9South Carolina
11Stanford
13LSU
23North Carolina

Under ranked
Others receiving votes:
TCU 23
Mississippi State 22
Unmentioned:
Utah
Georgia Tech
 
I think there would be more value in, like you said, rankings that don't come out until there has been a month or so of games played
 
It’s way too early to tell anything. The fact that UConn won last year should go to show that anything can happen once you get into the tournament. They could play last year’s tournament over 1,000 times and UConn wouldn’t win again. Like most years, this year we are in the mix with a shot to make a run. That’s all you can really ask for year to year.
 
Complaining about Rankings Auto-Responder: Rankings don't matter. Ever.

Comparing Bill Self to JB Auto-Responder: Biggest pile of BS. Ever.
 
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