If our OL performs/holds up we are going to score some pts.

[TheCusian]

What did anyone expect? We had the absolute worst facilities of any P5 program. Forget the IPF we didn't have anything until renovations were completed in 2012. That and he was recruiting after the Gerb debacle. The first class he didn't have any time, and the classes after that were put together with basically no resources available. His last class was shaping up to be pretty good until he left, and so did the recruits. At least he had a sound plan, and a system he used for identifying talent. I would be shocked if he wouldn't be pulling the same class rankings.

Maybe. We'll never know. He took the entire offensive staff and our best offensive recruits bolted.

People keep forgetting how bad our offense was prior to 2012's breakout year. If he had a solid plan we'd have seen a steady increase in production. 2011 was a clusterf. They caught lightening in bottle by stumbling on 2012's great O (and still lost at least 2-3 games they should have won). Also - some of Grob's guys were pivotal to that 2012 team too.

He left the cupboard looking pretty thin for QB and WR...

I'm not as plugged in as you - but it seems that we have a recruiting plan. Our recruiting has been getting better. We've identified a bunch of guys early. Finally got RW to stick.

 

[TheCusian]

I realize he didn't enjoy it but I'm not sure it showed. That staff was all over the place as much as they could be representing a disaster of a program. The players always had nice things to say about Marrone as well as the rest of the staff and we were in on some top guys that at the time "we" couldn't believe would even give us a look. I think Shafer is doing a better job than Marrone did and things appear to be slowly getting better and better. But Marrone was starting with nothing and I think he did a pretty exceptional job with the cards he was dealt, as far as recruiting is concerned.

I agree that it got better - but just showing competence will do that. We're still getting chances with guys we didn't think we could get. And RW is proof what we're selling is working.

I'm not anti-Marrone. I truly appreciate what he's done. I just think last year's issues of depth were largely magnified by the hole he left by 60+ ranked classes and leaving when he did.

And if you want to draw a line up - and point to Gross and Cantor as to reasons why Syracuse lost its "dream school" tag - I'd be right there with you.

Can't wait to have actual games to talk about!!!

 

[RF2044]

I would say 6 games. Robinson and Palmer are basically interchangeable. Worst case the drop off is insignificant.

I do think the OL can be better just because the core of the group (Trudo, Foy, Robinson) have each started on 2 of the better OL's in the past 15 years. But I do agree that the regression was just not on the players. I know people like to go on the defensive, but there is absolutely no denying there was a major drop off in coaching when we went from Marrone/Adkins to Perles, and then to Adam. imo the talent is there. They definitely under performed, but we need to see improvements from both the players, and the OL coaching.

How can anyone infer anything definitive about the OL coaching, given the massive injuries last year? We had games where we literally had 5 guys play, with the 6th injured. Injuries and compromised depth were what sunk the OLs performance. I agree they had / have talent, but when you have 2 and 3 principals injured many of the weeks and virtually zero depth due to guys being out, it is hard to blame that on coaching.

I'm not defending Adam; I think he still has a lot to prove. But I do cut him some slack given what transpired last year.

 

[anomander]

Maybe. We'll never know. He took the entire offensive staff and our best offensive recruits bolted. People keep forgetting how bad our offense was prior to 2012's breakout year. If he had a solid plan we'd have seen a steady increase in production. 2011 was a clusterf. They caught lightening in bottle by stumbling on 2012's great O (and still lost at least 2-3 games they should have won). Also - some of Grob's guys were pivotal to that 2012 team too. He left the cupboard looking pretty thin for QB and WR... I'm not as plugged in as you - but it seems that we have a recruiting plan. Our recruiting has been getting better. We've identified a bunch of guys early. Finally got RW to stick.

I just meant plan as in recruiting territories,
and recruiting guys who fit his scheme.

In no way am I saying his recruiting results were great, I am just cutting him some slack because of the limited resources he had to work with. Especially when it is in comparison to Shafer, who has all the resources Marrone didn't, but IMO only slightly increased our recruiting efforts.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

Just a second now. I'm looking at this chart. Hickey, Trudo, Miller, Robinson & Foy/Palmer were together for what, 8 games? You have to assume that at least one guy can come in to replace another player (e.g. Palmer & Foy being replacements for each other). So, this blows up the argument that injuries were the problem.

 

[SoBristol]

Yep. Like it's been said - Marrone great game planner, very very average recruiter.

I give Marrone credit for filling holes in the roster he inherited -- being smart enough to know he needed JUCO help and resourceful enough to find some. His approach to filling holes (mostly in the trenches) was a big factor in getting to 8 wins in 2010 and 2012.

Shafer went into 2014 with no back-up QB who had played a down in college or JCs and no serviceable sub at OT. It was a set up for failure if Hunt went down; and worse if we lost either Hickey or Foy. Can't put this all back to Marrone -- the current staff has to figure out strengths and weaknesses of the roster and find help.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

You have to assume that at least one guy can come in to replace another player (e.g. Palmer & Foy being replacements for each other). So, this blows up the argument that injuries were the problem.

Could Lou Alexander replace anyone?

 

[OrangeinBoston]

Could Lou Alexander replace anyone?

Right, but I'm talking about Foy & Palmer who are both listed as 2015 starters. Just don't buy it. I think it was coaching pure and simple. We'll find out soon enough.

 

[bcubs9497]

Just a second now. I'm looking at this chart. Hickey, Trudo, Miller, Robinson & Foy/Palmer were together for what, 8 games? You have to assume that at least one guy can come in to replace another player (e.g. Palmer & Foy being replacements for each other). So, this blows up the argument that injuries were the problem.

I can assume that you have no clue as to how tightly orchestrated blocking schemes are. An OL is like a Ferrari engine; one little thing goes out of whack, and the whole engine turns to crap. It's not a "plug and play" kind of thing. From what I can see, there wasn't a 2-3 game time frame where the OL didn't change. And the guys coming back from injuries weren't even close to 100%.

 

[RF2044]

Just a second now. I'm looking at this chart. Hickey, Trudo, Miller, Robinson & Foy/Palmer were together for what, 8 games? You have to assume that at least one guy can come in to replace another player (e.g. Palmer & Foy being replacements for each other). So, this blows up the argument that injuries were the problem.

No it doesn't--not by a longshot. Perhaps more than any unit, successful OL play requires consistency and collective execution. Missing players--especially experienced starters--for lengthy stints was tremendously disruptive, as was having players available only in a diminished capacity [since they were rushing back and playing injured to help compensate for the compromised depth dilemma]. Injuries absolutely were the problem on OL.

I don't suggest that OL injuries were the ONLY problem plaguing the offense last year. Our historically poor performance offensively was a systemic breakdown on several levels.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

I can assume that you have no clue as to how tightly orchestrated blocking schemes are. An OL is like a Ferrari engine; one little thing goes out of whack, and the whole engine turns to crap. It's not a "plug and play" kind of thing. From what I can see, there wasn't a 2-3 game time frame where the OL didn't change. And the guys coming back from injuries weren't even close to 100%.

Point taken.

 

[qdawgg]

And none of the teams we played had injuries, especially at key positions......

 

[bcubs9497]

And none of the teams we played had injuries, especially at key positions...

And Steven's playing center...

 

[javadoc]

Injuries happen. An ACC team should have 3 spare OL who can play without a big drop in quality, and a second QB who can play.

The real question is why we had zero depth at OT and QB. Comes back to recruiting.

Recruiting is a part of it, but so are career-ending injuries. Curtis and Knapp both losses at OT. You can try to make up for it through recruiting, but you are necessarily behind the curve at that point, because you are counting on a guy at least one year behind the development curve for the spot he is holding on the roster.

 

[TheCusian]

And none of the teams we played had injuries, especially at key positions...

Of course other teams have had injuries - it's football. But Shafer (who has been around since he played) said he's never seen that many key injuries on one side of the ball.

There's a case for "all teams have injuries, deal with it" - but last season went way past that point. Throw in a dysfunctional OC > OC running another guys system against some of the best D's in the country and yeah - you have last season.

 

[TheCusian]

Recruiting is a part of it, but so are career-ending injuries. Curtis and Knapp both losses at OT. You can try to make up for it through recruiting, but you are necessarily behind the curve at that point, because you are counting on a guy at least one year behind the development curve for the spot he is holding on the roster.

Great point. Hard to figure that into your plans.

 

[SU68]

I realize he didn't enjoy it but I'm not sure it showed. That staff was all over the place as much as they could be representing a disaster of a program. The players always had nice things to say about Marrone as well as the rest of the staff and we were in on some top guys that at the time "we" couldn't believe would even give us a look.

I think Shafer is doing a better job than Marrone did and things appear to be slowly getting better and better. But Marrone was starting with nothing and I think he did a pretty exceptional job with the cards he was dealt, as far as recruiting is concerned.

I think that Marrone tried very hard to recruit, but his personality is better suited to the pros. Shafer's "rah rah" personality works well with high school kids as does the experience he had living in a ghetto one summer. He can relate to the kids.

 

[upperdeck]

we had some guys playing game day who were not practicing all week.. depth is the issue and has been for 20 yrs at SU.

 

[qdawgg]

I think that Marrone tried very hard to recruit, but his personality is better suited to the pros. Shafer's "rah rah" personality works well with high school kids as does the experience he had living in a ghetto one summer. He can relate to the kids.

Completely agree. I just think with what Marrone walked in to, he did a pretty good job. I don't think his trajectory would have continued to go up as much as Shafers has so far in recruiting but I think he did a pretty good job given all the circumstances. People forget how much the players he recruited liked him and even players who eventually picked other schools, never had negative things to say about Marrone or the staff. Minus a couple players upset about not being called every night at 8pm.

 

[qdawgg]

And Steven's playing center...

Hey, I don't disagree. Offensive line injuries can ruin a season but I still believe the unit under performed overall and I don't think a majority of that blame can be placed on the players. Just my opinion.

And when I say under performed; I'm not implying I thought they would be tops in the ACC and they ended up being absolutely terrible. I just think we had the players at least in some games to play better than what we saw.

 

[tep624]

I don't know last seasons offense seemed to regress from the strides the 2013 was seeming to make at the end of the season.

Hunt absolutely regressed. People seem to forget how bad he was in the early part of the season before the injury.

Now did that have to do with McDonald running a more vanilla offense in 2013 and overcomplicating it in 2014? Probably was a factor.

 

[tep624]

I believe Hunt will have a solid year. He is experienced. He will have a system that fits, he will be more healthy. I really believe he will pass for 2300 and run for 400.

I was really disappointed with his performance last year prior to the injury, especially coming off how well he did in the BC game and the Texas bowl. Had a lot of momentum to build on but looked like a complete regression. But I'm coming around to your perspective on this, mostly because I think McDonald overcomplicated the offense last year and really didn't play to Hunt's strengths at all. I think Lester is going to put him in a position to succeed, so he should be markedly better than what he looked like early last season.

I also think Hunt played injured in at least 2 of the games he did start before he went out for the season and that didn't help anything with his throwing motion or mobility either.

 

[TheCusian]

Hunt absolutely regressed. People seem to forget how bad he was in the early part of the season before the injury. Now did that have to do with McDonald running a more vanilla offense in 2013 and overcomplicating it in 2014? Probably was a factor.

For sure. I wonder how much of the Mcit dysfunction affected the players mentality/confidence...

 

[tep624]

How can anyone infer anything definitive about the OL coaching, given the massive injuries last year? We had games where we literally had 5 guys play, with the 6th injured. Injuries and compromised depth were what sunk the OLs performance. I agree they had / have talent, but when you have 2 and 3 principals injured many of the weeks and virtually zero depth due to guys being out, it is hard to blame that on coaching.

I'm not defending Adam; I think he still has a lot to prove. But I do cut him some slack given what transpired last year.

Yep. Can't compare these performances in a vacuum. It would have been hard for any OL coach to field a competent unit out of what we had last year, with the number games starters missed due to injury, the number of games starters had to play injured due to depth problems, the lack of competent or ready depth on the 2 deep, and a couple of really damaging career ending injuries to Curtis and Knapp in the years prior.

The 2013 class was a horrendous OL recruiting job by Marrone's staff. They landed all of John Miller and John Burton before they bolted. You couple that with losing a surefire starter in Curtis and, at a minimum, a really solid depth guy in Knapp, and it makes 2013 even worse. The new staff managed Moore, who hasn't played a minute on the OL and is probably redshirting this year, Lasker, who was promising as a recruit but hasn't developed into a full-time starter to date, and Hayes, who had to redshirt in 2014 and played spotty as a RF last year, with 1.5 months to recruit that class. To date, we've gotten 1 year of full-time starter minutes out of that 2013 class (Miller in the 2014 season). Hayes does look promising and he may end up starting for a few years, but that does little to help the 2014 and 2015 starting group.

Outside of going high-end JUCO in the 2014 recruiting class, which there is a very limited number of prospects available and a ton of competition for those prospects, it is extremely hard to make up that kind of gap on O-Line in one year.

 

[money3189]

I was really disappointed with his performance last year prior to the injury, especially coming off how well he did in the BC game and the Texas bowl. Had a lot of momentum to build on but looked like a complete regression. But I'm coming around to your perspective on this, mostly because I think McDonald overcomplicated the offense last year and really didn't play to Hunt's strengths at all. I think Lester is going to put him in a position to succeed, so he should be markedly better than what he looked like early last season.

I also think Hunt played injured in at least 2 of the games he did start before he went out for the season and that didn't help anything with his throwing motion or mobility either.

All the things you mentiond are the exact reasons why I feel Hunt will be better. Even though we were disapointed in Hunt early on I did see him improve on some defeciencies. He threw a better deep ball. I think people forgot how bad he was before the last two games in 2013. The int's and stuff he threw last year, I blame McDonald for. He was trying to do things with him that he wasnt ready for. Lester will not put him in those situations.