If this is why the south produces better football players... | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

If this is why the south produces better football players...

Do you think the behavior of parents and coaches in youth sports is getting better, or worse?

Not sure as I haven't been to any youth games for a number of years.

The worst behavior I saw was in youth basketball, not youth football. In the CYO, as a matter of fact. Much to my delight I saw big-time K Street lawyers and lobbyists thrown out of school gyms.

The difference between what I saw in the 80's and 90's and what I experienced as a youth was HUGE. My father's involvement in youth sports consisted of looking up from his paper and asking, "How did you do?"

As I told you. in the football we stopped it cold. We threw the kid off the team and wrote the parents a check at the end of the game.

When we explained the policy to the assembled parents at a pre-season meeting, some sat slack-jawed in disbelief.

"You can't do that."

"Oh yes we can and we will. In fact, if you think you might have a problem with the policy, we will be glad to write you your check right now. Just have your kid drop his gear off at the shed after today's practice."

The majority of parents got it and were highly supportinve
 
Townie72 said:
Not sure as I haven't been to any youth games for a number of years. The worst behavior I saw was in youth basketball, not youth football. In the CYO, as a matter of fact. Much to my delight I saw big-time K Street lawyers and lobbyists thrown out of school gyms. The difference between what I saw in the 80's and 90's and what I experienced as a youth was HUGE. My father's involvement in youth sports consisted of looking up from his paper and asking, "How did you do?" As I told you. in the football we stopped it cold. We threw the kid off the team and wrote the parents a check at the end of the game. When we explained the policy to the assembled parents at a pre-season meeting, some sat slack-jawed in disbelief. "You can't do that." "Oh yes we can and we will. In fact, if you think you might have a problem with the policy, we will be glad to write you your check right now. Just have your kid drop his gear off at the shed after today's practice." The majority of parents got it and were highly supportinve
So worse then. It's getting worse. Programs with abusive coaches are not going to die. In fact they seem to be flourishing.
 
Pretty much all over. Frederick County, then Anne Arundel then some stringer work in Montgomery/Howard.

Interesting.

Maryland high school football in the public schools is pretty weak. The high schools are small (1400 students) There are a few good ones and some good players spread around the schools.

As I'm sure you know, the power teams are, in Washington Catholic league (DeMatha, Good Counsel, St Johns, etc) and then in the Baltimore private school league (e.g. Gilman) and teams like Georgetown Prep are occasionally good.
 
Interesting.

Maryland high school football in the public schools is pretty weak. The high schools are small (1400 students) There are a few good ones and some good players spread around the schools.

As I'm sure you know, the power teams are, in Washington Catholic league (DeMatha, Good Counsel, St Johns, etc) and then in the Baltimore private school league (e.g. Gilman) and teams like Georgetown Prep are occasionally good.

Yeah, I covered some pretty good public school teams in Urbana's hay day (billy gaines, the Pitt WR who died tragically; another kid who went to PSU, eric Lenz, I think) and Linganore with the DE who went to PSU. Covered Lemon for one year at Arundel and some good teams at Old Mill. But basically I only occasionally dabbled in the private schools -- Gilman with Victor Abiamiri and Ambrose Wooden. The best sports I saw for the most part was catholic league basketball and the loaded High Point summer league.
 
Yeah, I covered some pretty good public school teams in Urbana's hay day (billy gaines, the Pitt WR who died tragically; another kid who went to PSU, eric Lenz, I think) and Linganore with the DE who went to PSU. Covered Lemon for one year at Arundel and some good teams at Old Mill. But basically I only occasionally dabbled in the private schools -- Gilman with Victor Abiamiri and Ambrose Wooden. The best sports I saw for the most part was catholic league basketball and the loaded High Point summer league.

I love WCAC basketball. I'm a Gonzaga suporter.

Did you ever see a Georgetown Prep v. Landon lacrosse game?
 
So worse then. It's getting worse. Programs with abusive coaches are not going to die. In fact they seem to be flourishing.


It's insane...we have parents here that move (and I mean move from one really expensive neighborhood to another) to get their kids on the proper club lacrosse teams - in 5th grade. These neighborhoods are more political than the politics in DC.
 
I love WCAC basketball. I'm a Gonzaga suporter.

Did you ever see a Georgetown Prep v. Landon lacrosse game?

Yeah, I covered two of those for the gazette. pretty sick lacrosse.
 
Yeah, I covered two of those for the gazette. pretty sick lacrosse.

Prep and Landon are two teams and two schools that really don't like one another. Goes way beyond anything I ever experienced.
 
Do you think the behavior of parents and coaches in youth sports is getting better, or worse?

My 2 cents after 35 years of coaching youth and high school sports is that it is getting worse. Every parent thinks their kid is a future scholarship athlete and every coach thinks they're Vince Lombardi.
 
Pretty much all over. Frederick County, then Anne Arundel then some stringer work in Montgomery/Howard. Edit: As an aside I actually told Heather Dinich what the line-of-scrimmage was at a game she was covering with the Post magazine and then was standing next to her, dumb-founded, when she got the job at ESPN after working the cops beat at the Capital. She was nice, cute and a solid writer but I still have no idea how she pulled off the Capital cops beat -- to ESPN move. Unreal.

SMAC representing.
 
It's definitely getting worse. In my area, the two worst are lacrosse and soccer, they want kids playing 12 months a year, same sport. The move to play one sport at such a young age is absurd. I just don't get involved. I get phone calls as to why my oldest daughter isn't playing indoor lacrosse from some coach just 2 weeks ago, my response is always because she is 11 and she is swimming twice a week at Ithaca College and having a lot of fun doing it. My wife always runs to pick up the phone when she knows one of these calls are coming in. I love getting into it with some of these helicopter/ psycho parents. What changed is all these club teams with adults making their living off coaching these kids. In my day and most of our day, the best athletes I knew played 2-3 sports.
 
Not that much different than the elite travel hockey teams in the upstate NY area, boys AND girls.
In both HS sports and most travel soccer leagues parents must now sign a sportsmanship pledge, that has seemed to help calm the sideline outbursts. Used to get pretty wild in the 90's when my son played, even the announcers berated the refs, one time in a HS soccer match my son was obviously fouled but it was not called, announcer loud and clear over the PA system " -------- fouled but no call". Game was stopped and ref warned announcer, fans of course went wild.
 
My 2 cents after 35 years of coaching youth and high school sports is that it is getting worse. Every parent thinks their kid is a future scholarship athlete and every coach thinks they're Vince Lombardi.
Bees I agree with you on the parents. I have coached hockey for years and every parent wants their kid starting or on the ice when it counts. The flip side to that is growing up I had the coaches that pushed me to do better. They yelled and swore the outcome was every player working harder and together which made for better teams and players. The kids today have a huge problem. They are all entitled. It's i this and I that and what are you buying me and one more video game please. It's a different generation and these kids today need to be pushed more then ever. This crap of removing not keeping score and stats and everyone wins is horrible for kids. Growing up I was on teams that won a lot and I was on some bad ones. The years I was on bad teams I pushed harder to just get one more win the years I was on good teams I pushed harder to not be beat. For the vast majority that drive is not here today
 
That is crazy. What is next, Friday Night Tykes Cheerleaders? :(

You want an eye opener? Go to a Pee Wee wrestling tournament sometime. Imagine the kids' football situation from above, then imagine they let the parents right down on the field.
 
Bees I agree with you on the parents. I have coached hockey for years and every parent wants their kid starting or on the ice when it counts. The flip side to that is growing up I had the coaches that pushed me to do better. They yelled and swore the outcome was every player working harder and together which made for better teams and players. The kids today have a huge problem. They are all entitled. It's i this and I that and what are you buying me and one more video game please. It's a different generation and these kids today need to be pushed more then ever. This crap of removing not keeping score and stats and everyone wins is horrible for kids. Growing up I was on teams that won a lot and I was on some bad ones. The years I was on bad teams I pushed harder to just get one more win the years I was on good teams I pushed harder to not be beat. For the vast majority that drive is not here today

Entitled is a great word.
 
It's definitely getting worse. In my area, the two worst are lacrosse and soccer, they want kids playing 12 months a year, same sport. The move to play one sport at such a young age is absurd. I just don't get involved. I get phone calls as to why my oldest daughter isn't playing indoor lacrosse from some coach just 2 weeks ago, my response is always because she is 11 and she is swimming twice a week at Ithaca College and having a lot of fun doing it. My wife always runs to pick up the phone when she knows one of these calls are coming in. I love getting into it with some of these helicopter/ psycho parents. What changed is all these club teams with adults making their living off coaching these kids. In my day and most of our day, the best athletes I knew played 2-3 sports.
i still think that's true. lebron james, jameis winston

people skim some malcolm gladwell book and buy it hook line and sinker. if you do something for 10000 hours you'll be good. well no . the only people that do something for 10000 hours are people who are great
 
Travel teams and the 12 month thing that you have to do because everyone else is doing and if you don't, you lose and that is driving this bus. Parents spend a lot of time and money and the "pressure" of this whole debacle is beyond ridiculous. I agree 100% with what IC said about playing 2 or 3 sports but that is getting to be more and more difficult because of the demands on kids/parents to play that 12 month schedule and if you don't do it, somebody will be right there to take your place.

Kids have their schedules made out for them. No, impromptu games...no creation of fun. We are creating human robots that unfortunately will break down because of the demands of playing one sport for 12 months or just plain and simply end up hating the sport.

As for as entitled, yes...they pay money and want results. They want to sometimes live through their kid/ego or get that scholarship which for a huge percent will be elusive and probably will end up being more of an academic thing (NY kids) instead and not a free ride.
 
The problems of youth football are bad leadership (coaches) and bad parental behavior. Manage those two things and its an outstanding experience for the kids involved.

I ran the administrative side of a large youth program in Bethesda, MD for three years. The AD selected and managed the coaches. We took care of everything else including delivering refunds and walking papers to parents who would not behave themselves on the sidelines. One or two of these a year made it absolutely clear that we wouldn't tolerate parents berating refs, our players or opposing players or coaches. In addition, parents were forbidden from discussing playing time with coaches.

We had about 120 players and 5 weight and age classes ranging from a team of 8-9-10 yr olds with a max weight of 10 yr olds of 75 lbs to 11-12-13 yr olds with a max weight of 120 for the 13 yr olds. In three years we had two injuries. A broken finger and a dislocated hip that was diagnosed as due to a congenital weakness by the staff at Suburban Hospital. That's in 250 days of practice and 120 games in the three years I was active. I was around he program another three years, but as just a parent.

We did have other injuries --- all of which occurred as a result of pre-practice and home back yard rough-housing without pads of supervision. It's what little boys do.

Based on my experience, the dangers of youth football are being wildly exaggerated by a sensationalist press and over-wrought soccer parents who are afraid of everything from candy bars to hypothermia and who never saw a safety-related product they didn't like.
Why would there be playing time issues in Pop Warner football. Its a fun/developmental sport. All parents pay the same amount. The kids should play the same amount. Unless, winning is too important to the Vince Lombardi wanna be coaches.
 
At the end of the day, the best athletes will usually rise to the top as they get older. I can already see it, whose parents push, whose don't , what kids are just well naturally more athletic than others. People get too worked up about nonsense. Let the kids have fun, push them to help a kid up when they get knocked on their butt, teach them it's OK to want to win but don't be a dink about it, teach them to not quit or blame teammates for a loss etc. Teach them a good pass is just as good as a goal. So many great lessons to learn but too many arseholes who couldn't play a lick as a kid in control on a lot of this. TEACH THEM TO TRY AND BE GOOD PEOPLE, that is what youth sports is all about. I can see high school sports as different but these entry level K-8 are beyond absurd on so many levels. It's just mind numbig to me. What IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?
 
Why would there be playing time issues in Pop Warner football. Its a fun/developmental sport. All parents pay the same amount. The kids should play the same amount. Unless, winning is too important to the Vince Lombardi wanna be coaches.

This was not a Pop Warner League. We have them in Maryland, but not in and around DC.

Montgomery County (MD) offered its own youth league with mandatory playing times. Even though it was partially taxpayer subsidized, the league failed. Coaches didn't want to coach and kids didn't want to play in a league in which everybody was owed playing time.

Neither the government or parents are in charge of the league.

The teams in the Capital Beltway League play to win. You might call it a "select" league. Playing time is given to the best players. There are no "cuts". Its a self-pruning system. At the younger ages there just isn't that much difference in ability so it isn't an issue. But on the "bigger" teams the key to playing time is performance ... just like in any "select" league in any sport.

The kids don't have a problem with this. They want to win ... probably more than the coaches. The coaches have to treat the kids fairly and well or they won't have any players. The league was run by real adults so coaches who mistreated players had very short tenures.

The better coaches would remind you more of Jim Boeheim than Vince Lombardi. The coaches are calm demeanor guys. The parents get a little excited.

The league produces large numbers of kids who go on to play in high school and college and even a few pro players are among the alumni.

Our experience with the "developmental leagues" in DC is that they don't work.
 
I live outside Atlanta, arguably in the heart of the sports-nut south, and basically the birthplace of youth baseball insanity. I've had three kids go through youth sports, but not tackle football.

In my experience, again excluding football, there are plenty of options for the level of intensity you want for your sports. We started our kids in the mega-church leagues, and played basketball, soccer, softball and baseball there. That's your "just for fun" experience. For my daughters, and for my son for a while, that was adequate. That's where the parents are all nice, the coaches kiss the kids asses, and if your nine year old misses a grounder because he's playing with dandylions, the coach is going to give him a hug and probably the game ball for his team spirit.

As kids get older, for some of them that's enough. It was for my daughters, they never wanted more. At 5-6 my daughter was EXCELLENT at soccer, well advanced beyond her age peers. But she only liked it, not loved it. She had travel soccer written all over her at that age, but she just wanted to play one season a year, and with the same church team where she knew the girls. And each year she fell further back to the pack, as the other girls were playing year round, going to camps, and just generally were more interested. I never pushed her to move on, just let her play out the string. It was a little disappointing to me only in that there are other kids with nowhere near the natural talent she had that would LOVE to be able to play at a high level.

Like my son. My 10-year old son is a C+/B- talent at all his sports, but he's serious about them and mentally dialed in. He cares. He probably isn't good enough to even play high school sports (he doesn't know that yet), but sports are important to them. For him, we were able to move to the town league, which is a step more competitive. He wanted that. I told him that if he switched, he'd go from being the 2nd or 3rd best player on his team to the 2nd or 3rd worst probably, but he wanted it, so we did it. The coaches don't yell and scream or swear, but they do expect/demand a certain level of attention and effort. When they tell a kid to do something and the kid just doesn't do it, they will let the kid know. I don't have a problem with that for a 9 or 10 year old, that's the way we treat him, I expect teachers to treat him, and there's no reason why a coach shouldn't be the same way.

That will be a high enough level for him skill wise. But if he was too good or competitive for this league, then their are travel leagues that are more competitive, and I would expect to come with more intense coaches that yell more and demand more. By the time a kid is 9, 10, 11 some kids are ready for that. That setup holds for baseball, softball, soccer, basketball, etc. around here. My son also plays church league for basketball, and an independent flag football league. That's what works for him, his talent level and commitment, as well as our family's desired commitment, for each sport.

I'll tell you, seeing overbearing coaches are bad, but it's also no fun to see your 10 year old out there trying to learn and do well, and there's other kids disrupting practice, dicking around, talking over the coach, and making no effort, and then going over between innings to sit on Mommy's lap and get his hair stroked.

It seems like the solution is pretty straightforward. Eliminate the worst 3% of parents and coaches that are just lunatics and unfit to be involved with youth sports in any way. Then have different levels available, and have your kid in the appropriate level for their maturity, interest and ability. That's it. We've been fortunate enough to be able to follow that model, and the youth sports experience has been 100% positive.

I realize that is over-idealistic and can never really be done universally. I'm fortunate to live in a populous area with a lot of options, I imagine in smaller towns there is only one game in town. And football is a beast of it's own, where even in an area like this the sheer size of a youth football operation means there's only one or two options.
 
Somebody eluded to it above... Many of these kid's leagues are huge supplemental income for the people running them. I know because my friend ran one. There is money to be made and it's not like anyone is checking your books with any scrutiny.

I know some people do it for the kids and because they are passionate, etc... but plenty of coaches and ex-jocks know all this year round stuff is just an extension of the summer sports camp hu$tle.
 
Why would there be playing time issues in Pop Warner football. Its a fun/developmental sport. All parents pay the same amount. The kids should play the same amount. Unless, winning is too important to the Vince Lombardi wanna be coaches.

As someone whose kids have spent almost all their time in "everybody plays" leagues, I think all the kids that make an effort and pay attention and have an interest should play equally, regardless of talent.

But I've always wished the coaches had an option to delegate playing time based other factors. There's nothing you can do about it, by the time your get to 9, 10, 11 years old, winning and trying to win is important to most of the kids' enjoyment of the experience. I'd also argue that effort and dealing with winning and losing and disappointment around that are parts of the fundamental learning value of sports.

But every year, in every team, there are 2-3 kids that do nothing but disrupt, don't pay any attention, don't have any interest in playing, hassle the coach, don't show up to practice, etc. It's usually pretty clear they had no interest in it, but their parents thought it would be good for them. Often when it's time for these kids to go into the game, they whine about having to leave the bench where they were playing in the dirt or climbing the dugout. Sometimes they don't want to go into the game because they are on their mommy's lap being spoon-fed yogurt while they weren't in the game. I'm not kidding, I've seen that stuff with 8- or 9- year old boys.

And you see the coach have to convince them onto the field/floor against their will, and take out their best player, or a player who is making effort all the way. Just so they don't get in trouble by the rules. That sucks, for the coaches, all the other parents, and all the other kids, and there is zero lesson being learned by anyone.

I wish these everyone plays leagues came with an asterisk that said "Playing time will be distributed equally regardless of talent, among those who practice hard, listen to the coach, show good sportsmanship, and are good teammates. We do NOT specify minimum playing time requirements to players who are disruptive, disobedient or absent from practice."

Could never be done, but that's the ideal for the purely fun/developmental leagues.
 

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