If you could choose, would you prefer 30 wins and sweet 16 or 14 losses + Final 4?

Discussion in 'Syracuse Basketball Board' started by orangepassion, Jan 7, 2017.

  1. orangepassion

    orangepassion All Conference

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    Based on JB's presser from last night. I personally would choose choice A.
     
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  2. jncuse

    jncuse Hall of Fame

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    I choose A, because with 30 wins you believe the entire year you are a title contender -- it just makes the season more fun. The end is a kick in the nads but it is sudden.

    14 losses and a F4 feels like crap most of the year, you think you suck. You have a really fun 2 weeks, but even then you still expect to get curb stomped the next game you play. I didn't really have much hope entering the final 4 last year and it dampened my excitement compared to 2003 or even 2014 for that matter.
     
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  3. SoBeCuse

    SoBeCuse All American

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    It's a good question. Boeheim has somewhat contradicted himself. Earlier in the season in a presser during the non-conf he noted that we didn't have a good regular season last year and what Virginia and others had accomplished should not be discredited, deserving some merit. He made it clear that we weren't a good team last year.

    Now he says that all that matters is the F4 and regular season accolades are null and void. I don't know. I probably choose slight edge to choice A. Regular season does matter and is a good indicator of a general program's current and decipherable success.
     
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  4. two3zone

    two3zone Hall of Fame

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    Option A. No doubt about it.
     
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  5. Cusefan0307

    Cusefan0307 2017 Iggy Winner

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    Give me late games into April.
     
  6. UnderHisOwnPower

    UnderHisOwnPower Ask yourself, do I feel lucky?

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    I agree. Last years final 4 was awesome, of course. And using that criteria, and that criteria alone, the season was historic. But it also felt a bit like what could have been? If the team was able to put together a better regular season and earn a higher seed, then it is those type of seasons where Final 4 becomes the floor, not the ceiling, that you may only get with a 30 win team. I understand JBs presser points. For most fans, and certainly casual fans, a Final 4 is all that matters. But from a program perspective, if all of the pieces are falling into place, then 30 wins should occur on a semi regular basis, and if you can put yourself in that position, post seasons success will certainly follow.
     
  7. Shark58

    Shark58 Walk On

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    obviously the 1st is a better team, but here's why the 2nd choice is correct.

    if you are talking about a single season, making the 4 is a bigger deal. as proof, off the top of you head tell me a few teams from the 90's and 00's that had surprising 30 win seasons. now name teams from the same era that made a surprising FF run. which list came quicker to you?

    if you are talking about year in, year out then the constant 30 win team that can't get past 16 is the most overrated, cream puff who folds under pressure with an over his head way overrated HC who can probably recruit (more program than him, payoffs, other internet fodder, etc.) but is terrible at X/O's and needs to be replaced by everyone (especially that winning turk at XU who keeps taking middling teams into the last weekend)

    at the end of the day, the first team underachieves while the 2nd becomes part of the fabric of history
     
  8. Cheriehoop

    Cheriehoop Moderator Staff Member

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    He said the ultimate judgement of whether a year is successful is the tournament and whether you get to the final 4. It's every team's ultimate goal but in the end one's success is based on tournament success. He heard that criticism for the 1st and 2nd round losses earlier in his career. The regular season's goal is to make the tournament and secondary is to get a decent seeding to get as far as you can in the ultimate test, the NCAA's.

    Bet 1st round loser, Michigan St, would have rather lost 6 more games than last year's 2015-2016 6 loss regular season and made the Final 4, like their 12 loss team did just the year before. Have people praised Pitt for their great regular season success as being more impressive than their numerous tournament failures? Did Jamie Dixon get criticized and hounded because he was a failure in the regular season? Let's be honest here. If JB had great regular seasons all 4 years and lost in the first or 2nd round each year, rather than the 2 Final 4's, guess what everyone would be harping on?
     
  9. jncuse

    jncuse Hall of Fame

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    There is no correct or wrong answer, each fan has different experiences and preferences. Some prefer and remember the end result more. Some prefer and remember the entire ride more.

    I know in 10 years time I will look at the 2010 team much more fondly than the 2014 or 2016 season. In 10 years I will still easily remember the 7 man rotation of the 2010 team, but I will struggle to fully remember it for the 2014 and 2016 teams (I will get years mixed up). While 2010 ended badly it was my most memorable recent year as a fan.
     
  10. jncuse

    jncuse Hall of Fame

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    I still think "success" is a personal assessment so neither view is wrong. I view 2010 and 2012 as the most successful recent years for our program.

    Being a 1 or 2 seed to me says a lot more about the stature of your program then making the final 4 seed as a 10 seed. That is how I evaluate success. But you may evaluate it differently, and that is not wrong either.
     
  11. hungrychuck

    hungrychuck 2nd String

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    Ideally the choice wouldn't be quite that stark, but I think it's B. Final Fours do more to cement a program's status as elite.

    Of course JB is playing this card because he has 2 in the last 4 seasons. Slippery slope though, as five in 40 years isn't all that much better than 3 in 36.
     
  12. llandz

    llandz All Conference

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    It is all about growing during the season. You want to keep improving and peak at the end. Final Four or not. A great coach gets his team to do better and better throughout the season.

    But an April with no team to follow is not fun for me. I'll take the Final Four. Of course if we made it EVERY year with 10-12 losses, I think it could get stale, lol. So MOST years I would take the Final Four. When we went 30 and then flamed out, I think that was harder to take. The disappointment was awful. The excitement of the tournament run last year was great and eventful. To me that is what makes college basketball great.
     
  13. CaptainJ

    CaptainJ All American

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    I'm not known for B-revity, but B got me to go to a Final *** last season, and to confront both Doug Gottlieb and our friend CTO within a short time of each other.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
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  14. ROCcuse

    ROCcuse 2nd String

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    this, all the way.
     
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  15. Cheriehoop

    Cheriehoop Moderator Staff Member

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    I also think that preseason expectations also help define whether a team is considered an overrated disappointment or an overachieving surprise.
     
  16. FrancoPizza

    FrancoPizza Starter

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    Option A. I don't care if I have a hard time remembering it 10 years later, maybe it's because the winter just flies by when we're having a really good season.

    And truthfully I have many more great memories of 2011-12 than last year simply because there were many more of them in comparison. Heck even seeing Bernie's creepy eyes gracing the front page of ESPN - and all the crazy rumors with Laurie - was just funny in retrospect.
     
  17. CaptainJ

    CaptainJ All American

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    By the way, my uncle was a college hoops coach and after our final four loss(he isnt a Cuse fan), he consoled me that there are no losers at the Final 4. He got me to remember it is an acheivement unto itself, maybe like a plateau a bit lower than the peak?

    The whole thing reminds me of the the lyrics to the Rush song, Bravado, though it may not for others:

    If we burn our wings
    Flying too close to the sun
    If the moment of glory
    Is over before it's begun

    If the dream is won
    Though everything is lost
    We will pay the price
    But we will not count the cost
    We will pay the price
    But we will not count the cost

    When the dust has cleared
    And victory denied
    A summit too lofty
    River a little too wide

    If we keep our pride
    Though paradise is lost
    We will pay the price
    But we will not count the cost
    We will pay the price
    But we will not count the cost

    And if the music stops
    There's only the sound of the rain
    All the hope and glory
    All the sacrifice in vain

    And if love remains
    Though everything is lost
    We will pay the price
    But we will not count the cost
    We will pay the price
    But we will not count the cost

    And if love remains
    Though everything is lost
    We will pay the price
    But we will not count the cost

    And if love remains
    Though everything is lost
    We will pay the price
    But we will not count the cost

    And if love remains

     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
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  18. AZcuse77

    AZcuse77 Scout Team

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    Option A... There was a much better chance of winning a title at that stage even two rounds out. JB is a legend but half of his comment was just him being sensitive IMHO. No it doesn't just matter that you won 4 games in the tourney and cancel everything else out. Bud isn't the greatest writer but that presser just sounded like JB being defensive more than he believed the regular season doesn't matter or gets cancelled out by making it two rounds deeper with no title. Maybe if this were the Olympics they could have had a bronze medal game but who in America really cares about bronze?
     
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  19. two3zone

    two3zone Hall of Fame

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    I love the final four as much as the next guy, but with 2 in four years you'd think it helps with recruiting which it doesn't seem it has.

    Look at Ben Howland when he was at UCLA, bunch of final fours and outside of that nothing, they still live off of their legacy.

    To me a guy winning 1000 games is more impressive than 5 final fours in 40 years.

    Last years run was fun, we got much further than I though and don't discredit anything that happened during the tournament, but outside of Atlantis it was a miserable season up until the Gonzaga game.
     
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  20. hungrychuck

    hungrychuck 2nd String

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    It does help with recruiting, but in our case our HOF coach is leaving and everyone knows it. The extent to which that is being used as a negative recruiting tool by our rivals cannot be overstated.
     
  21. two3zone

    two3zone Hall of Fame

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    Everybody knows who the next coach is, there's no confusion.

    If what your saying is the case then we're in big time trouble going forward.
     
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  22. AZcuse77

    AZcuse77 Scout Team

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    Knowing an unknown quantity (as a HC) Hop is HCIW doesn't change that the HOF coach is not only leaving but it's questsionable if he has lost touch a little bit with today's players or lost some drive in his 70s... I don't see the practices so I don't know but the 3 "calendar" year record and current recruiting suggests that may be the case. Sounds pretty normal based on other universities and their transitions but its best to expect some down years and throw our support to Hop that he can be successful in this transition. We've been spoiled and 'cuse will be fine long term.
     
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  23. hungrychuck

    hungrychuck 2nd String

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    Nothing against Hop, wish him nothing but the best, but he's not JB and to the extent that his abilities are uncertain or unproven, our rivals will use that against us -- as we, quite frankly, would do against them.
     
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  24. two3zone

    two3zone Hall of Fame

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    So we're screwed going forward?
     
  25. kcsu

    kcsu All American

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    Great teams set lofty goals. Short of winning the NC every team has these goals in D1
    Regular season champions
    League tournament champions
    Make the dance
    Final four
    Out of the above goals the final four is the most important to every major program. If you poll the top 100 programs and coaches asking them to rate the above goals the final 4 will be 100% the top choice.
     
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