If you could choose, would you prefer 30 wins and sweet 16 or 14 losses + Final 4? | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

If you could choose, would you prefer 30 wins and sweet 16 or 14 losses + Final 4?

By the way, my uncle was a college hoops coach and after our final four loss(he isnt a Cuse fan), he consoled me that there are no losers at the Final 4. He got me to remember it is an acheivement unto itself, maybe like a plateau a bit lower than the peak?

The whole thing reminds me of the the lyrics to the Rush song, Bravado, though it may not for others:

If we burn our wings
Flying too close to the sun
If the moment of glory
Is over before it's begun

If the dream is won
Though everything is lost
We will pay the price
But we will not count the cost
We will pay the price
But we will not count the cost

When the dust has cleared
And victory denied
A summit too lofty
River a little too wide

If we keep our pride
Though paradise is lost
We will pay the price
But we will not count the cost
We will pay the price
But we will not count the cost

And if the music stops
There's only the sound of the rain
All the hope and glory
All the sacrifice in vain

And if love remains
Though everything is lost
We will pay the price
But we will not count the cost
We will pay the price
But we will not count the cost

And if love remains
Though everything is lost
We will pay the price
But we will not count the cost

And if love remains
Though everything is lost
We will pay the price
But we will not count the cost

And if love remains

Thank you so much for that song Captain J.

It's applicable in many a realm. So much so I'm going to tweet it and give you credit.

AndreaCGWW is my Twitter handle and one need not be on Twitter to lurk there, if you know the person's nom de Twitter like I just shared.
 
Ideally the choice wouldn't be quite that stark, but I think it's B. Final Fours do more to cement a program's status as elite.

Of course JB is playing this card because he has 2 in the last 4 seasons. Slippery slope though, as five in 40 years isn't all that much better than 3 in 36.
5 in 40 years is a lot better than 3 in 36
 
I'm not sure if anyone has asked this, but I didn't stop to consider this last night: the guarantees in the title aren't the ceiling, right? Could we assume a 30 win team in a p5 conference, let alone the ACC, has a very good shot at going to the Final 4 in addition to the 30 wins? If so, I might want to reconsider my initial answer. For some reason I was thinking those might be the ceilings, the OP was quite vague.
 
Maybe we should ask Pitt fans if they'd give up all those gaudy records for more than one Elite 8.

I think we've had a good mix of tournament success over the last 7 years along with a few great regular seasons. When we're 30-5 but lose in the Sweet 16 it's horrible. It doesn't negate all the good, but that Final Four negated all the bad of last year.
 
Anytime a coach discussion comes up about how great they are, the first two benchmarks are usually

1. Titles

2. Final fours.

I'll go with B. A Thirty win season capped byba sweet 16 feels like a colossal tease.
 
Based on JB's presser from last night. I personally would choose choice A.

We are all programmed to want to win every game. So if you ask me in season I'd rather have the 30 wins. But in terms of legacy, looking back at the season in the rear view mirror, I would probably rather have had the final four and the tournament success.
 
A. Because A means its more likely that you'll go to the Final Four in subsequent years due to the true strength of your program as opposed to just being a flash in the pan.

Kansas seems like a program that wins 30+ games every year, but has a bad habit of getting bounced early in the tourney recently. But I would still gladly want to be them.
 
Long term for a program to be deemed elite you need Final Fours AND elite regular seasons.
I think tournament success matters more but I don't mind elite regular seasons and sweet 16 losses as long as we are regularly making Final Four runs.
Last year was awesome and helped the program but we can't have 4-5 mediocre regular seasons in a row.
 
I still think "success" is a personal assessment so neither view is wrong. I view 2010 and 2012 as the most successful recent years for our program.

Being a 1 or 2 seed to me says a lot more about the stature of your program then making the final 4 seed as a 10 seed. That is how I evaluate success. But you may evaluate it differently, and that is not wrong either.

A more realistic example for me is I reflect much more fondly on the 95-96 Wallace team that went 29-9 and lost to Kentucky in the championship game then I do on the 90-91 Billy Owens team that was 26-6 and basically steam rolled everyone, but then dropped its last two games (BET & NCAAT) and limped off into history.

30 wins and 14 losses might not be the exact correct measure because we play more games now then back then, but I think these two teams represent the concept reasonably well and give us a way to look at how we view the two types of teams in a true historic context.

The 95-96 team was kind of mediocre through the regular season, maybe not as mediocre as last season, but they didn't light the world on fire. We finished second in the Big East 7 division had the fourth best record overall in conference. We were 22-7 going into the BET. Nearly 25% of our wins came in the postseason. We had a string early in the conference season where we lost 5 of 8 games.

The 90-91 team had a 26-4 regular season. They were the Big East Regular Season champs. Ended up a #2 seed in the tournament. We then lost our first round BET game and first round NCAAT game.
 
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Final four as the ceiling. Would you take last year over Onuaku's senior year?I think everyone would take championship over 30 wins.
I'm not sure if anyone has asked this, but I didn't stop to consider this last night: the guarantees in the title aren't the ceiling, right? Could we assume a 30 win team in a p5 conference, let alone the ACC, has a very good shot at going to the Final 4 in addition to the 30 wins? If so, I might want to reconsider my initial answer. For some reason I was thinking those might be the ceilings, the OP was quite vague.
 
Final four all day long

14 losses/Final 4 every time.


When judging a programs elite level, Final 4's and National Championships are used to define a program like ours, not 30 win seasons.

Would you rather have a "Final Four" t-shirt, or a "We Won The Regular Season But Lost In The 2nd Round" t-shirt?

Final four as the ceiling. Would you take last year over Onuaku's senior year?I think everyone would take championship over 30 wins.
This, this, this, and this.

Final Four every day and twice on Sundays. Shouldn't even be a discussion, IMO. Post-season is pretty much all that counts.
 
So what team does everyone view more favorably?

Team A: 27-7 overall. 11-5 in conference play(2nd overall) and conference tournament champs, but was upset by a mid major in the first round of the NCAA tournament when their top 2 all league players played like garbage.

Or

Team B: 23-12 overall. 7-9 in conference play(9th overall), had 7 losses by double digits(including by 39 to DePaul), but they got hot and won the conference tourney getting a 5 seed, but were ultimately bounced when their star player was so hurt he could barely play.
 
So what team does everyone view more favorably?

Team A: 27-7 overall. 11-5 in conference play(2nd overall) and conference tournament champs, but was upset by a mid major in the first round of the NCAA tournament when their top 2 all league players played like garbage.

Or

Team B: 23-12 overall. 7-9 in conference play(9th overall), had 7 losses by double digits(including by 39 to DePaul), but they got hot and won the conference tourney getting a 5 seed, but were ultimately bounced when their star player was so hurt he could barely play.
So Hak Warrick Senior year or
Gerry's Senior year.
I liked 2005 more because we are NC the whole year and then Warrick had 10 turnovers, the refs called TRob for a tech for holding onto the rim and JB let the opponent dictate tempo.
2006 we were a flawed team the whole year.
 
So Hak Warrick Senior year or
Gerry's Senior year.
I liked 2005 more because we are NC the whole year and then Warrick had 10 turnovers, the refs called TRob for a tech for holding onto the rim and JB let the opponent dictate tempo.
2006 we were a flawed team the whole year.

Good Points, but wrong year. We held the title in 03-04 when we finished second in the regular season, lost in the first round of the BET tourney, but got to the sweet 16. Team A 04-05 team leaves a bad taste in my loss because we played sooo bad against UVM and underachieved in the tourney that I would rather just forget that year altogether.
 
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Good Points, but wrong year. We held the title in 03-04 when we finished second in the regular season, lost in the first round of the BET tourney, but got to the sweet 16. The 04-05 team leaves a bad taste in my loss because we played sooo bad against UVM and underachieved in the tourney that I would rather just forget that year altogether.
Team A can't be 2003-2004.
We were the 4 seed BET and lost to BC then were a 5 seed in NCAAT and beat BYU(GMac 40pt game), Maryland and then lost to Alabama.
Team A looks like 2004-2005 to me.
No doubt Team B is 2005-2006.
 
The 95-96 team was kind of mediocre through the regular season, maybe not as mediocre as last season.

1996 was a strong 4 seed. Last year we got in by the skin of our teeth.
 
Team A can't be 2003-2004.
We were the 4 seed BET and lost to BC then were a 5 seed in NCAAT and beat BYU(GMac 40pt game), Maryland and then lost to Alabama.
Team A looks like 2004-2005 to me.
No doubt Team B is 2005-2006.

Correct. That's what I was saying.
 
That 2005 team was so frustrating...Then the tease with the BEST title...Followed by a swift kick to the d$+k.
 
Correct. That's what I was saying.
Even with the loss to Bama 2004 team did really well IMO.
They got to the 2nd weekend and they weren't beating UConn even though Forth dominated them on McNeil's Senior Day on CBS. I remember Forth dunking on an injured Okafor.

I want Final Fours but I think we need dominate regular seasons mixed in. We can't have first or second round flameouts. However sweet 16 games and beyond are coin flips.
 

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