I'm having blasphemous thoughts again...

[OrangeFoo]

Personally, I wish we would switch it up. If the opposition knows what is coming, they can prepare for it. Teams in our league will learn how to play against the zone. When the zone is at it's best, then it will still be effective, but there are always ways to attack a zone, and when a team has played against it often enough, they become more comfortable playing against it. Calhoun knew how to beat the zone, and had some incredible players to do it with. So, being able to play man would help throw the opposition out of rhythm.

Teams in our league already know how to beat our zone... I remember back in the BE we could reliably count on Pitt/Uconn/ND/Louisville as the teams which regularly beat the crap out of our zone because the both knew how to beat the zone and were able to execute the offense needed to actually beat the zone on gameday. The rest of the BE teams were either too undisciplined or didn't have the players to beat the zone beyond just getting really hot from 3 which rarely happened. The ACC is a different beast... every team seems to have the knowledge and talent to beat the zone. Pretty much every ACC team last year, outside of North Caroline, had a pretty good approach to attacking the zone. We're not going to be able to hide behind the zone much longer... we're going to have to go back to having an offense that can outscore teams.

 

[Dave85]

I think the zone is going to perform at a high level this year. Prior to the exhibitions, I was really worried about Malachi because I'd heard defense wasn't really his thing. After the exhibitions, my mind has been put at ease. Crappy competition level aside, he appears to be learning the rotations at a pretty accelerated pace and his arms are everywhere. 6'6" is traditionally small for a Syracuse small forward but he makes up for it with more quickness than we typically have at the position and a near 7' wingspan. I think he's built for zone defense. On top of that, Roberson looks like a monster physically this year and has plenty of experience in the zone, Cooney's solid up top, and Gbinije's size is going to cause a lot of problems for guards. The only question mark I see is Coleman's ability to protect the rim. However, where Coleman falls short in shot blocking, compared to Rak, he gains points with his wide body and ability to push guys out of the paint, which Rak couldn't do.

Gbinije and Cooney would not be good m2m defenders against most guards, imo. Gbinije would struggle with the small, quick ones and Cooney might too. In m2m, Malachi could end up in a lot of post situations with bigger forwards, which would be no bueno. And Coleman would be in big trouble away from the rim. Roberson is really the only guy I see with better/same potential in m2m as zone.

On top of the personnel stuff, I think a functioning Boeheim zone does all of the things m2m can do. We can ratchet up the intensity and speed of the game by extending beyond the arc and trapping more, we can limit 3-pointers if they're killing us (Kenpom wrote an article about the effect of our zone on 3-point shooting), and teams that can pass well against the zone would pass just as well or better against our version of m2m, with the likely addition of more dribble penetration.

This is a really good post!

 

[Dave85]

They may not 'work' on MTM but they play it most of the time in practice because that is the D that the O will see in games.

I wonder if that's true. I thought I read once JB said they never practice MTM. So I wonder if they only play 2-3 on both ends.

 

[Dave85]

:bang::bang::bang::bang::bang:

I can always count on you for the most intelligent commentary.

 

[Dave85]

Dave, you need to get yourself to the confessional, pronto. Doesn't matter if you're not Catholic! That is a nitpicking point. Hopefully, IF you can be absolved by the priest - and your sin is so egregious you may not be - the order of the Universe will be restored and we have chance for a good season.

Sheesh! What were you thinking?

Forgive me...

 

[Dave85]

LOL...All you need to do is start two more threads:

Why doesn't Boeheim go 10 deep?
Why doesn't he schedule like Izzo?

And you'll hit the trifecta...

Those three threads alone can consume the board until Conference play starts...

You know, it's Wednesday two days before the first game of the 2015-16 season. You have to give me some credit here.

And for the record JB should go 10 deep in case someone gets hurt towards the end of the season. Which for some reason always seems to occur proportional to how well we think the team is going to do in the NCAA tournament.

 

[dilligaf]

I suspect the reason we don't switch up defenses is because we need to get our primary dance moves down pat first.
The zone works when people know how to play their position and move together.

Adding variations puts players into ponder mode instead of reflex mode - don't think, just act.
It's ballet. You got to rehearse it thoroughly to get it right.

When even one player is screwing up, it becomes a leaky vessel.

 

[br801]

You know, it's Wednesday two days before the first game of the 2015-16 season. You have to give me some credit here.

And for the record JB should go 10 deep in case someone gets hurt towards the end of the season. Which for some reason always seems to occur proportional to how well we think the team is going to do in the NCAA tournament.

Dave, please call JB's radio show this week and suggest he go 10 deep with a team of 9 non walk-ons. I'll hang up now and listen...

 

[FrancoPizza]

I suspect the reason we don't switch up defenses is because we need to get our primary dance moves down pat first. Adding variations puts players into ponder mode instead of reflex mode - don't think, just act.
It's ballet. You got to rehearse it thoroughly to get it right.

No wonder other coaches can negatively recruit. Dance moves. Rehearsals. Ballerinas. Our defensive analog is a mix between Black Swan and The Nutcracker.

 

[dollarbill44]

But the last few years with a 2-3 zone that's not as great as ones previous I've been having blasphemous thoughts again about playing man-to-man defense.

It was really just last year's team that struggled with the defense. Our problem since the last FF team has been mainly a poor offense. I wouldn't mind seeing occasional man defense just to get the players moving a little better when they're sluggish. Other than that, it's a very solid defense.

 

[SU in Hershey]

I wonder if that's true. I thought I read once JB said they never practice MTM. So I wonder if they only play 2-3 on both ends.

I wonder with recent years of dull offenses if we looked better in practice against M2M defense, but the M2M defense was so bad, that we really couldn't execute against GOOD M2M defenses in real game situations.
If that's the case, do we waste time practicing a defense we won't use in a real game, or scrap it completely and hope for the best on game days?
Just a thought.

 

[Oakland]

Bernie said in an interview ~8 yrs ago that the team plays MTM 90% of the time in practice. Maybe someone who has attended practice in the last couple of years could comment.

I wonder if that's true. I thought I read once JB said they never practice MTM. So I wonder if they only play 2-3 on both ends.

 

[Flacusian]

The ZONE is going to be so scary next year that there will not be anyone even remotely thinking about m2m. As long as there aren't any unexpected departures next years team will be unquestionably one of the best in the Nation regardless of any NCAA effort to penalize the program.

This year, while the team is not postured for a final 4 type of season, they will offer a more exciting brand of basketball then we have been seeing for the past 2 seasons. There were times when it seemed we couldn't hit a shot for what seemed like an eternity. In fact we are coming out of a period of time characterized by the two of the most offensively challenged teams we've ever seen. This year we have shooters and I would find it hard to believe that they won't provide us with more excitement / scoring than we've seen lately and that I know I'm really looking forward to.

I get the feeling that in light of the NCAA investigation / persecution ... the worst is over now and we are back on the uphill curve with a great deal to be enthusiastic about and can feel good about the future of the program. Duke is going to be one hell of an opponent for us in the coming years with the unparalleled level of recruiting they have fashioned for themselves, but that will give us a chance to play against another top level program so as to sharpen our skills in our pursuit of one more National Championship prior to JB handing the reins over to Hop.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

Can't wait to see Hop play nothing but man during JB's suspension.

 

[orangefan13]

The problem is having good on the ball defenders, and guys who can cover ground fast not as much what defense you play.

And if you don't have guys who can cover ground fast or on the ball pressure, then another problem arises as you can't extend the zone as much against good three point shooting teams.

On top of that on the ball defending and moving in the zone are not easy things to do for freshmen,especially on the ball defending. We have had alot of soph's and fresh leave in recent years as well.
Even dion, mcw ennis were not ready to do that uptop as fresh, Howard could be more ready.

I don't feel Lydon is covering ground all that well yet at the four but hes hustling his hardest, Malachi has been a beast covering ground and rebounding Hes getting tough boards even. He just happens to look more like a breakout sensational sophmore then a freshmen the first few games minus a few bad long passes imo. As for lockdown defending you don't have to do as much of it at forward.

As for Center first and foremost I give Dajuan and Obokoh a ton of credit that haven't been beat baseline at all yet and huge props for that. That's a true test if your worthy of some playing time in conference play.

As for zone vs m2m, we almost always lose in march from poor shooting and turnovers if you go back and read the box scores. One test you can do is to take the turnover differential margin and add those shots to your missed field goals and you will see what you really shot.

 

[dilligaf]

No wonder other coaches can negatively recruit. Dance moves. Rehearsals. Ballerinas. Our defensive analog is a mix between Black Swan and The Nutcracker.

There's nothing gay about appreciating the grace of the sport. It's not just jumping up and down. It's coordination, timing and acrobatics. Pity if that is lost on you.

 

[teamco]

You know what they say. Nothing is certain in life but death, taxes, and Cuse playing the 2-3 zone under Boeheim.

 

[dollarbill44]

You know what they say. Nothing is certain in life but death, taxes, and Cuse playing the 2-3 zone under Boeheim.

Wait, I thought #3 was SU not leaving the greater NY metropolitan area until January. At least that what I used to hear on ESPN (no lie).

 

[UnderHisOwnPower]

Is there ever a time to play man-to-man instead of the 2-3 zone. The zone does a few things for the team. It allows players with lesser athletic ability play very good defense against superior athletes. It forces teams to attempt and make outside shots. It forces teams to make good passes to players in motion. It also slows the game down so opposing teams with much better shooters get less chances to make baskets. Those are a lot of positives

However, the 2-3 zone has a darker side. If teams are making outside shots we get roasted. If teams are good at making passes to players in motions we get burned. If the Orange are losing the game slowing down the game works in the opponents favor.

A few years ago JB made the proclamation that he came to the realization that practicing man defense was a waste of time and stopped doing it in practice. For at least three years now every single minute of every game has been the 2-3 zone on defense. Another comment JB made was when man-to-man defense breaks down people don't say, "play zone!". So JB concluded just practicing 2-3 zone allows his players to play better 2-3 defense and now the team exclusively plays 2-3 zone.

Many of the older Orange fans here remember the days when JB would occasional switch between and 2-3 zone and man defense based on the game situation. Many times early in the second half JB would play man to shake up the other team. My question for the board is does having the ability to switch to man defense occasionally have any value?

My thinking is four/five years ago when our 2-3 zone may be the best 2-3 zone defense I've seen in all my years of watching Orange BB it made sense. But the last few years with a 2-3 zone that's not as great as ones previous I've been having blasphemous thoughts again about playing man-to-man defense.

watch any game involving 2 .500 teams competing, both playing M2M, and then count the layups. You'll be amazed at how easy it is to beat your average M2M defense.

 

[Dave85]

watch any game involving 2 .500 teams competing, both playing M2M, and then count the layups. You'll be amazed at how easy it is to beat your average M2M defense.

You would think someone would be able to do a computer analysis of how many times Syracuse 2-3 zone teams have beaten higher ranked teams as opposed to MTM teams in general. I would bet based on JB's career and record the 2-3 zone overall allows a lower ranked team to beat more higher ranked teams. Of course, team ranking is subjective. But based on my 35 years of watching Orange basketball it just seems to me the Orange have beaten many teams they were not supposed to beat over the years.