I'm sure others feel the same way

[Eric15]

I'm a huge fan of calm, even-keeled coaches. Guys like Tony Bennett, Lute Olson, etc. who don't need to throw tantrums, but are in complete control of their teams.

Red is calm and even-keeled, but unlike those guys, I never feel like he's fully in control. Whenever I see him I get "substitute teacher" vibes where he's just kind of there, and everyone he's responsible for is doing whatever they want without consequences.

 

[Scooch]

This is not a great roster. But we lost close games to Texas, Gtown and ND. It feels like with better coaching and effort, we could have won all three and beat the mid majors by more.

Agreed. For many years JB had the ability to drag a team across the finish line and get a win. He knew when to ride the hot shooting hand, how to tweak the zone, etc.

Autry clearly doesn’t have that skill. Which is understandable, he’s all of 40 games into his head coaching career. But couple that with a roster that has a ton of flaws, and you get a team that can hang but not close.

 

[xc84]

If they just hustled and crashed the boards they would have some more wins. Fast break D sucks and at times they just stop going after rebounds.

 

[PeteCalvin]

This 100%. The good cop bad cop is kindergarten stuff but it really works especially with a roster full of kids that are not mentally tough.

JB understood how he needed to coach each player individually to get the best out of them. Some younger posters may not remember the anger that Rony Seikaly had for JB because of how tough he coached him. He yelled at Rony all the time and kept pushing him. Meanwhile, he seemed to lay off of Derrick Coleman and only got in his ear in selective situations. Years later, JB revealed in an interview that Rony needed a fire lit under his butt to get the best out of him. DC, however, would shutdown and tune JB out when he went full JB on him. So he found that zone (pun intended) with Coleman where he could drive him and keep him engaged. DC had the natural talent to dominate, you just needed to keep him focused. Rony was raw athleticism as a freshman and needed all the hours of work to hone his skills. In the end, two different coaching approaches and two success stories. No coach after JB was able to get the best out of DC, including Chuck Daly.

 

[gmoney44]

Even during the crappy years, aberrations like Deshaun Williams notwithstanding, players were relatively normal competitors who were relatable.

I have never, to the best of my memory, seen anything like Eddie Lampkin putting his hands down on defense to clap while his man sticks a jumper in his face, as happened in the first half today.

People here are worked up about the coaching staff.

I feel bad for the coaching staff. You'd have to be a special kind of worker to a) have played college basketball at a high level and b) show up at practice every day trying to wring the best out of these salaried Insta-divas.

I don’t feel bad for the coaches. This is the team they assembled.

 

[RF2044]

In the 40 seasons between 1980-2019 we had exactly one season (1981-82) where our regular season was so bad that we had to win our conference tournament in order to make the NCAA tournament.

That has now been the case in four out of the past five seasons and this year will almost certainly make it five out of the past six seasons.

Its just a mind boggling descent.

Which is why it was incredibly stupid to do an internal continuity hire given what the state of the program was 2 years ago.

 

[jdubs30]

Which is why it was incredibly stupid to do an internal continuity hire given what the state of the program was 2 years ago.

Yep. That’s also what people who always point to UNC and Duke going internal conveniently forget. Those programs were in much better shape when K and Roy stepped down

 

[kingtidge]

Which is why it was incredibly stupid to do an internal continuity hire given what the state of the program was 2 years ago.

It is what it is.

A JB legacy hire was always going to happen regardless, so complaining about it being a bad decision is denial of reality.

We all hope it would work out.

If it's not going to work out, it's unfortunate but not exactly surprising either.

Many first-time HC's fail.

 

[RF2044]

It is what it is.

A JB legacy hire was always going to happen regardless, so complaining about it being a bad decision is denial of reality.

We all hope it would work out.

If it's not going to work out, it's unfortunate but not exactly surprising either.

Many first-time HC's fail.

No offense, but that's loser talk. It didn't have to be inevitable, we didn't have to hire someone who needed on the job training, we needed to hire someone who had a proven track record, who could reverse the programs fortunes. The wound has been self-inflicted.

 

[kingtidge]

Ni offense, but that's loser talk. It didn't have to be inevitable, we didn't have to hire someone who needed on the job training, we needed to hire someone who had a proven track record, who could reverse the programs fortunes. The wound has been self-inflicted.

What you are describing is fantasyland.

I would have liked it to go that way, but it was simply not going to happen and certainly not reality.

Why play pretend?

 

[djcon57]

Yep. That’s also what people who always point to UNC and Duke going internal conveniently forget. Those programs were in much better shape when K and Roy stepped down

K and Roy also stepped down on their own and are openly still supporting the program

 

[RF2044]

What you are describing is fantasyland.

I would have liked it to go that way, but it was simply not going to happen and certainly not reality.

Why play pretend?

In actuality, what's fantasyland is pretending that there were constraints that delimited the choice, when in fact there were none. What's fantasyland is pretending that prioritizing "nice to have" evaluative criteria was more important than "need to have" factors, such as a proven track record of being a successful coach.

Pretending that we had to hire from within is a rationalization that some people told themselves to feel better about transitioning away from Boeheim. Hiring someone with connections to our program from within was "inevitable," "reality," and an AD "rule" ... until it wasn't.

See: football.

And now, the program is paying the price for making a terrible hire, and artificially limiting the pool of candidates to alums. And much like Hopkins got exposed at UW for not being able to coach offense, Red is showing many of the same weaknesses / gaps. Go figure.

 

[kingtidge]

In actuality, what's fantasyland is pretending that there were constraints that delimited the choice, when in fact there were none. What's fantasyland is pretending that prioritizing "nice to have" evaluative criteria was more important than "need to have" factors, such as a proven track record of being a successful coach.

Pretending that we had to hire from within is a rationalization that some people told themselves to feel better about transitioning away from Boeheim. Hiring someone with connections to our program from within was "inevitable," "reality," and an AD "rule" ... until it wasn't.

See: football.

And now, the program is paying the price for making a terrible hire, and artificially limiting the pool of candidates to alums. And much like Hopkins got exposed at UW for not being able to coach offense, Red is showing many of the same weaknesses / gaps. Go figure.

I actually thought that 10 years ago...

Then I watched JB weather the 2nd round of sanctions and then the Daddy-ball chapter and realized JB had absolute 100% control over the program. Beyond the power of the AD, the chancellor, etc.

His 45+ years in job had evolved into absolute power. This was nothing like football, which had cratered into program irrelevance for over 3 decades under a revolving door of head coaches.

And to be clear, I wanted him gone after the 2nd round of sanctions and have posted that opinion here numerous times since then.

But I also came to grips with the fact that he would get his legacy hire as part of his exit, because of his absolute power over the program, regardless if it was warranted.

Red is truly part of JB's legacy because JB required a legacy hire and had the power to demand it. This is the last chapter and vestige of his program control.

I don't "feel better" about any of this BTW.

You don't agree that this is the reality of the situation.

OK, agree to fundamentally disagree.

 

[RF2044]

I actually thought that 10 years ago...

Then I watched JB weather the 2nd round of sanctions and the Daddy-ball chapter and realized JB had absolute 100% control over the program. Beyond the power of the AD, the chancellor, etc.

His 45+ years in job had evolved into absolute power. This was nothing like football, which had cratered into program irrelevance for over 3 decades under a revolving door of head coaches.

And to be clear, I wanted him gone after the 2nd round of sanctions and have posted that opinion here numerous times since then.

But I also came to grips with the fact that he would get his legacy hire as part of his exit, because of his absolute power over the program, regardless if it was warranted.

Red is truly part of JB's legacy because JB required a legacy hire and had the power to demand it. This his last chapter and vestige of his program control.

I don't "feel better" about any of this BTW.

You don't agree on that as reality.

OK, agree to fundamentally disagree.

Oh, I agree that JB abused his station, hung on too long, made things as uncomfortable as possible, hung on to the bitter end, and refused to let go.

Then guess what happened? After losing his final game, in the first round of the ACCT, he declared in the press conference that he and only he would decide when he would step down. And Wildhack relieved him of duty the next day.

Out of respect / deference, Wildhack allowed JB to stick around much longer than performance warranted. But the notion that it wasn't Wildhack's decision to make is false. In fact, JW had to finally intervene to put a stop to the shiz show.

Along those same lines, it is false to claim that JW couldn't have gone a different path with the hire. Was it the path of least resistance? Absolutely. But that was a choice the AD made, versus a choice that might have been a little more difficult short term, with a bigger payoff / better outcome long term. Instead, he chose to avoid that pain rather than rip the bandaid off when it was time to do so -- when he had just removed JB from the head coaching role. It was a half step, and it was dumb not to take the next step.

For the record, JB wanted GMac to get the job more than Red, no matter what he said at Autry's introductory press conference, so no -- I don't believe that JB had full control over the situation. I think he misused his power for a long time, though -- which is how we got into this mess in the first place.

 

[kingtidge]

Oh, I agree that JB abused his station, hung on too long, made things as uncomfortable as possible, hung on to the bitter end, and refused to let go.

Then guess what happened? After losing his final game, in the first round of the ACCT, he declared in the press conference that he and only he would decide when he would step down. And Wildhack relieved him of duty the next day.

Out of respect / deference, Wildhack allowed JB to stick around much longer than performance warranted. But the notion that it wasn't Wildhack's decision to make is false. In fact, JW had to finally intervene to put a stop to the shiz show.

Along those same lines, it is false to claim that JW couldn't have gone a different path with the hire. Was it the path of least resistance? Absolutely. But that was a choice the AD made, versus a choice that might have been a little more difficult short term, with a bigger payoff / better outcome long term. Instead, he chose to avoid that pain rather than rip the bandaid off when it was time to do so -- when he had just removed JB from the head coaching role. It was a half step, and it was dumb not to take the next step.

For the record, JB wanted GMac to get the job more than Red, no matter what he said at Autry's introductory press conference, so no -- I don't believe that JB had full control over the situation. I think he misused his power for a long time, though -- which is how we got into this mess in the first place.

Could Wildhack have pushed him out sooner by outright canning him??

He could have tried.

Here's the rub.

It actually might not have worked and at the very least, Wildhack would have had to fall on his sword to do it.

JB was not going to go quietly and had the power to take pounds of flesh if he wanted to say 10 years ago and prolly 4-5 years ago even.

He even flirted with trying to do that when Wildhack finally pulled the trigger, but yes, his power had waned enough due to the sustained poor performance and the window was open... And his better angels (wife, family, friends, likely helped stave-off him going scorched earth)... And the legacy hire was also a big part of that I would argue.

And... Wildhack pulled the trigger when he thought HE could survive it (self preservation.)

All in all, a terrible situation and way to go out after 45+ years to be sure, but a lot of how this happened was based on timing IMO.

 

[RF2044]

Could Wildhack have pushed him out sooner by outright canning him??

He could have tried.

Here's the rub.

It actually might not have worked and at the very least, Wildhack would have had to fall on his sword to do it.

JB was not going to go quietly and had the power to take pounds of flesh if he wanted to say 10 years ago and prolly 4-5 years ago even.

He even flirted with trying to do that when Wildhack finally pulled the trigger, but yes, his power had waned enough due to the sustained poor performance and the window was open... And his better angels (wife, family, friends, likely helped stave-off him going scorched earth)... And the legacy hire was also a big part of that I would argue.

And... Wildhack pulled the trigger when he thought HE could survive it (self preservation.)

All in all, a terrible situation and way to go out after 45+ years to be sure, but a lot of how this happened was based on timing IMO.

The highlighted section has nothing to do with the point I made. Zero. Zilch.

Which was that it was dumb to make a continuity hire after JB was relieved of duty. It was an artificial constraint that delimited options, and that it greatly increased the likelihood of failure. All of which is true.

I never said anything about pushing Boehiem out earlier. But once the move had been made, then it didn't make sense to only rip the band aid off half way, just to avoid some short term consternation.

The fanbase would have gotten over any hand wringing quickly if the successor had been successful.

Net result: the program is amazingly in worse shape today than it was two years ago, when many believed we'd already hit the nadir. Actions / choices have consequences, and here we are.

 

[kingtidge]

The highlighted section has nothing to do with the point I made. Zero. Zilch.

Which was that it was dumb to make a continuity hire after JB was relieved of duty. It was an artificial constraint that delimited options, and that it greatly increased the likelihood of failure. All of which is true.

I never said anything about pushing Boehiem out earlier. But once the move had been made, then it didn't make sense to only rip the band aid off half way, just to avoid some short term consternation.

The fanbase would have gotten over any hand wringing quickly if the successor had been successful.

Net result: the program is amazingly in worse shape today than it was two years ago, when many believed we'd already hit the nadir. Actions / choices have consequences, and here we are.

What if ripping the band aid off included whale boosters that JB had in his pocket withholding annual donations to the program on his word??

Surely, if Don Corleone has the whale boosters in his pocket, he must share them...

Or NOT, and don't call me Shirley...

I don't think this had anything to do with small fish fans getting over anything... It was and is about money.

Also, I don't think it's a coincidence that JB got a part-time athletics dept gig involving fundraising...

I may wrong, however... So grain of salt.

 

[RF2044]

What if ripping the band aid off included whale boosters that JB had in his pocket withholding annual donations to the program on his word??

Surely, if Don Corleone has the whale boosters in his pocket, he must share them...

Or NOT, and don't call me Shirley...

I don't think this had anything to do with small fish fans getting over anything... It was and is about money.

Also, I don't think it's a coincidence that JB got a part-time athletics dept gig involving fundraising...

I may wrong, however... So grain of salt.

It did cost them one high profile booster.

As for the others? Worked both ways -- there were boosters [not small potato boosters] who were displeased with the product on the court, and were keeping their hands in their pockets.

Which again, has zero to do with the point I was making. But let's just agree to disagree, because it is becoming increasingly clear that we are talking about two different things.

 

[JonB]

In the winter, when there isn't that much to do outside of work and family stuff, Syracuse basketball is my primary source of entertainment. For the past 30-35 years that I've followed the program, I get so much joy every single day out of monitoring our RPI, Bracketmatrix, Bracketology, etc. Even during seasons when we didn't make the tourney like 1997, 2002 2007, 2008, the games were extremely important and relevant right up until the BET. We usually missed the cut by one single win.

I thought things were bad during that stretch from like 2015-2019 when we missed the tourney a couple times and then miraculously made the cut a couple times, but even then we were still part of the conversation and always within striking distance.

It's just different now, in the absolute most depressing way possible. For five out of the past six seasons, we have been completely off the bubble prior to the New Year. This year especially, the rest of the season is going to feel like a Greg Robinson football season in November, where you watch the games out of a sense of duty instead of actual excitement.

We keep saying "this is rock bottom" but then somehow, some way there's another layer below that.

This explains exactly how I feel. Thanks for posting this.

 

[grepal]

In the 40 seasons between 1980-2019 we had exactly one season (1981-82) where our regular season was so bad that we had to win our conference tournament in order to make the NCAA tournament.

That has now been the case in four out of the past five seasons and this year will almost certainly make it five out of the past six seasons.

Its just a mind boggling descent.

Not 100 pct sure we will be in the ACC tournament. Huge fan. Bleed Orange, advocate for Red getting at least three years but this is rock bottom of the 50 years I have followed SU. Hard to fathom for me. I will still watch and hope or the best.

 

[atlanticuse]

I have never, to the best of my memory, seen anything like Eddie Lampkin putting his hands down on defense to clap while his man sticks a jumper in his face, as happened in the first half today.

In called this out in the game thread.
And GT dude was pretty chill - he didn’t taunt back. Just did his job.

 

[Newhouser]

In called this out in the game thread.
And GT dude was pretty chill - he didn’t taunt back. Just did his job.

I think it was Rick Barry who said if someone started talking at him, he took that as them showing fear. Think Eddie knew early the young fella was going to be a handful.

 

[FloridaCuse]

Oh, I agree that JB abused his station, hung on too long, made things as uncomfortable as possible, hung on to the bitter end, and refused to let go.

Then guess what happened? After losing his final game, in the first round of the ACCT, he declared in the press conference that he and only he would decide when he would step down. And Wildhack relieved him of duty the next day.

Out of respect / deference, Wildhack allowed JB to stick around much longer than performance warranted. But the notion that it wasn't Wildhack's decision to make is false. In fact, JW had to finally intervene to put a stop to the shiz show.

Along those same lines, it is false to claim that JW couldn't have gone a different path with the hire. Was it the path of least resistance? Absolutely. But that was a choice the AD made, versus a choice that might have been a little more difficult short term, with a bigger payoff / better outcome long term. Instead, he chose to avoid that pain rather than rip the bandaid off when it was time to do so -- when he had just removed JB from the head coaching role. It was a half step, and it was dumb not to take the next step.

For the record, JB wanted GMac to get the job more than Red, no matter what he said at Autry's introductory press conference, so no -- I don't believe that JB had full control over the situation. I think he misused his power for a long time, though -- which is how we got into this mess in the first place.

So in the end JB didn't get what he wanted in 2 ways. He didn't get to retire when and how he wanted to (if he ever would have). And he didn't get the successor he wanted. Maybe he wanted GMac as his successor because he thought he'd be the better head coach. We already knew JB thought GMac was the toughest person he knew.

 

[Scooch]

It did cost them one high profile booster.

As for the others? Worked both ways -- there were boosters [not small potato boosters] who were displeased with the product on the court, and were keeping their hands in their pockets.

Which again, has zero to do with the point I was making. But let's just agree to disagree, because it is becoming increasingly clear that we are talking about two different things.

I'll always believe that Autry was the hire to keep JB, the ex-players and the majority of boosters engaged with the program. Yes, JW *could* have hired outside but there would have been real, meaningful blowback from that.

Here's the thing... If ultimately Red fails, and it sure looks like we're headed in that direction now, SU and JW can tell those folks that we tried. We tried to hire an Orange Man. We tried to pass the torch to the loyal soldier who was considered the coach in waiting. But it didn't work. Now we move on to another approach.

But if we went outside, and that guy failed, then we'd be set even further back when we moved on to the next guy.

You don't have to like it. And I know you were adament for years that we should hire outside. But I also understand why JW and SU did what they did. What you call the path of least resistance may also have been the "path with the least long term damage".

*edit* At the end of the day, this is Boeheim's fault. He should have left a LOT earlier. And his selfish desire to coach his kids caused all this nonsense,

 

[RF2044]

I'll always believe that Autry was the hire to keep JB, the ex-players and the majority of boosters engaged with the program. Yes, JW *could* have hired outside but there would have been real, meaningful blowback from that.

Here's the thing... If ultimately Red fails, and it sure looks like we're headed in that direction now, SU and JW can tell those folks that we tried. We tried to hire an Orange Man. We tried to pass the torch to the loyal soldier who was considered the coach in waiting. But it didn't work. Now we move on to another approach.

But if we went outside, and that guy failed, then we'd be set even further back when we moved on to the next guy.

You don't have to like it. And I know you were adament for years that we should hire outside. But I also understand why JW and SU did what they did. What you call the path of least resistance may also have been the "path with the least long term damage".

*edit* At the end of the day, this is Boeheim's fault. He should have left a LOT earlier. And his selfish desire to coach his kids caused all this nonsense,

Correction: I was adamant that we do due diligence, and identify / try to hire the best candidate that we could land. And since the three internal candidates that were most discussed here were all flawed [Hopkins was failing / about to be fired by UW, and neither Red nor GMac had any experience nor any programs seeking to even hire them], by default it seemed like the best option would be to look outside the program. I wasn't anti-guys within the program -- it's just that the available candidate pool who fit that criteria all sucked.

And why did I take that position? Because the basketball program was already teetering on the precipice of irrelevancy in 2023, and a bad hire would set us back even more.

As stated earlier, JW opting to appease ex-players was a choice, not a mandate. Two years later, we see how "engaged" a prominent ex-player like Derrick Coleman is, given what's unfolding on the court. We've seen reports that the program is cash-strapped, and in dire straights financially -- so what exactly did appeasing boosters engaged with the program tangibly accomplish?

The "path with the least long term damage," as you put it, is actually the path that caused MORE damage -- to our product, to our brand, and to the quality of play on the court. And now the NEXT coach will have an even bigger hole to dig their way out of to get SU basketball back on track.

I understand why JW did what he did as well. But at the time, I believed it was a risky strategy. And now that we see results, it seems increasingly like a bad move / poor decision.

Edit -- I agree 100% that JB put everyone involved -- the school, the ACs, the AD, etc. in a really bad position with his stubbornness.