IN SHAFER I TRUST

[TheCusian]

What I've noticed is that Shafer's guys have 6 wins in the last year and a half. He didn't get handed a rebuilding program and he needs to win games. If you want to keep waiting on recruits to get here in 2017, that's your choice. I'm saying that this staff and program needs to win before this year ends.

Yeah - I'm with you on holding the accountable. Just don't think it's as cut and dry as 1 win or he's gone. 3-9 x two years could do it. But I'd bet he gets another year just based on the talent on the field now.

 

[TheCusian]

Have you actually watched our offense this year? How on earth can you possibly look at the offense this year and not see a WILD improvement over last year?

This offense looks better in spurts than any offense in the last ten years, save 2012. And even those guys underachieved early.

 

[jekelish]

This offense looks better in spurts than any offense in the last ten years, save 2012. And even those guys underachieved early.

That's what I'm saying. And the offensive numbers would be better if the defense could ever get off the field. For god's sake, we didn't touch the ball in the last 9 minutes yesterday. You can't put up huge amounts of yards when you never actually have it.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Have you actually watched our offense this year? How on earth can you possibly look at the offense this year and not see a WILD improvement over last year?

Great. We are better than the 3rd worst BCS offense in recent history. SU hasn't scored 30 points on offense, in regulation, since URI. Tell me what is really truly impressive about that when compared to other college offenses, not last year's debacle.

 

[money3189]

For all these examples, can someone explain to me what Syracuse was rebuilding from when Shafer took over? A bowl game, a new league with more money, better facilities, no NCAA penalties in terms of scholarships.

I'm fine with being patient, but you need to tell me how taking steps backwards is a good thing.

Pitt has had a number of coaches and yet that lack of continuity hasn't kept them from bowl games, or finding good coaches. They lost two guys to better P5 jobs and are already bowl-eligible after losing their best offensive player.

Duzzi took over a program that has better recruits ( thats currently fit their system), currently has a proven system, great WR, 3 good backs. I give him credit for making the defense good. He is barely winning these games. Could have lost to youngstown state, VT, GT and UVA. If we were 5-2 or 6-1. Forum members for other schools would be bringing up Syracuse as a team to model too.

 

[qdawgg]

Yeah - I'm with you on holding the accountable. Just don't think it's as cut and dry as 1 win or he's gone. 3-9 x two years could do it. But I'd bet he gets another year just based on the talent on the field now.

I think this is where we disagree on the decision making. I would be very surprised if this or verbals we have now have any bearing at all on whether a coaching decision is made.

The only important thing is, is Shafer the right coach moving forward. Can he beat our peer schools and win some big games once in awhile with better recruits? The problem is he hasn't shown he can consistently beat others schools with similar talent. The next question is, is he capable moving forward.

 

[jekelish]

Great. We are better than the 3rd worst BCS offense in recent history. SU hasn't scored 30 points on offense, in regulation, since URI. Tell me what is really truly impressive about that when compared to other college offenses, not last year's debacle.

You honestly expect to jump from a terrible offense all the way up to Baylor, or something? Obviously we're not as good as a lot of college offenses. But I don't know how anyone can watch this team and not see a dramatic improvement on that side of the ball. There's still stuff to improve on...but the offense is getting a hell of a lot better.

 

[orangecuse]

Have you actually watched our offense this year? How on earth can you possibly look at the offense this year and not see a WILD improvement over last year?

I was responding to your comment that he's clearly doing more. I guess it comes down to one's interpretation of what clearly doing more means. Whatever one's interpretation, it's not translating into the all important and most critical thing, and that is W's. Additionally, it would be one thing if we were moving up and down the field, etc. like gang busters, but that's not what I see currently...

 

[Full_Rebar]

Duzzi took over a program that has better recruits, currently has a proven system, great WR, 3 good backs. I give him credit for making the defense good. He is barely winning these games. Could have lost to youngstown state, VT, GT and UVA. If we were 5-2 or 6-1. Forum members for other schools would be bringing up Syracuse as a team to model too.

You're right about the record. I don't think Pitt is that good, but when you are 6-1 in a P5 you get ranked. We can plays ifs and buts all day, but we are 3-4, not 5-2 or 6-1.

 

[jekelish]

I think this is where we disagree on the decision making. I would be very surprised if this or verbals we have now have any bearing at all on whether a coaching decision is made.

The only important thing is, is Shafer the right coach moving forward. Can he beat our peer schools and win some big games once in awhile with better recruits? The problem is he hasn't shown he can consistently beat others schools with similar talent. The next question is, is he capable moving forward.

See, I think the young talent has to play into it. Not just because Shafer should get to see what he can do with it, but because I don't think people realize how important retention is in these decisions, and retention is going to take a big hit if Shafer goes. Not 1-2 freshmen. Not 1-2 recruits. I'm talking 7 current freshmen all saying they'll transfer if Shafer goes, and multiple recruits backing out. This thing will get blown the hell up. That HAS to be a consideration.

 

[qdawgg]

Duzzi took over a program that has better recruits, currently has a proven system, great WR, 3 good backs. I give him credit for making the defense good. He is barely winning these games. Could have lost to youngstown state, VT, GT and UVA. If we were 5-2 or 6-1. Forum members for other schools would be bringing up Syracuse as a team to model too.

But isn't this the essential question. Lots of football games are close and come down to a few important things. It's not always that simple obviously but at the end of the day, Shafer hasn't shown he can win close games or beat peer schools even at a 50/50 rate.

Duzzi comes in his first year and he's barely winning some games but he's winning. I'm not sure how a coach who gets his team to win close games is a negative thing. I know when I coach, blowing a team out shows nothing. Winning a close game shows me everything.

 

[Upstate]

I like Shafer. I think he's the perfect kind of person for SU. Handful of plays from being 5-2, team has a chance in every game. How often have we been able to say that in the last 10 years? Lots of young talent to get excited about, calculated risks taken, big plays. It'll all translate into wins soon enough.

 

[CousCuse]

But isn't this the essential question. Lots of football games are close and come down to a few important things. It's not always that simple obviously but at the end of the day, Shafer hasn't shown he can win close games or beat peer schools even at a 50/50 rate.

Duzzi comes in his first year and he's barely winning some games but he's winning. I'm not sure how a coach who gets his team to win close games is a negative thing. I know when I coach, blowing a team out shows nothing. Winning a close game shows me everything.

He has Tyler Boyd.

 

[jekelish]

But isn't this the essential question. Lots of football games are close and come down to a few important things. It's not always that simple obviously but at the end of the day, Shafer hasn't shown he can win close games or beat peer schools even at a 50/50 rate.

Duzzi comes in his first year and he's barely winning some games but he's winning. I'm not sure how a coach who gets his team to win close games is a negative thing. I know when I coach, blowing a team out shows nothing. Winning a close game shows me everything.

I don't disagree with you that you have to make the plays to win the game. But I do wonder, do you factor this into the equation:

USF - had them stopped, momentum on our side...and a true freshman makes a freshman mistake.
UVA - had them stopped, with the lead...and a true sophomore makes a dumb mistake.
Pitt - had a second half lead, and our true freshman QB finally makes a couple bad throws on two straight possessions (I'm not remotely putting the game on Dungey, by the way; but obviously those two interceptions were killers).

My question is: doesn't the inexperience and absurd youth have to factor into being able close out games at least a little? These are all 18-19 year old kids in these crucial plays.

And again - I absolutely believe you have to be able to close out games. But just wondering if the youth and inexperience should be considered in the equation.

 

[qdawgg]

See, I think the young talent has to play into it. Not just because Shafer should get to see what he can do with it, but because I don't think people realize how important retention is in these decisions, and retention is going to take a big hit if Shafer goes. Not 1-2 freshmen. Not 1-2 recruits. I'm talking 7 current freshmen all saying they'll transfer if Shafer goes, and multiple recruits backing out. This thing will get blown the hell up. That HAS to be a consideration.

I just don't agree personally. I hate the idea of hiring a new coach though, you NEVER know what you're getting. A coach with history of improving programs and recruiting prowess could come in and do terrible. There are no guarantees at all. But the decision has to be made not for next year or the year after but for long term. If Coyle thinks Shafer isn't the right guy going forward than Coyle is under the belief that Shafer is a 6 -6 coach at best. If you hire the right guy, does it matter if the new guy goes 4 - 8 or 5 - 7 his first year if you believe Shafer could have ended up with a similar record himself.

Again, that's why I think the biggest question is, can Shafer beat AT LEAST our peer schools. He hasn't shown that he can on a regular basis or even 50/50. He also hasn't shown that he can coach a team to a big win either, I don't know how important that is at the end of the day but the record against teams with similar talent is really troubling I think.

 

[money3189]

But isn't this the essential question. Lots of football games are close and come down to a few important things. It's not always that simple obviously but at the end of the day, Shafer hasn't shown he can win close games or beat peer schools even at a 50/50 rate.

Duzzi comes in his first year and he's barely winning some games but he's winning. I'm not sure how a coach who gets his team to win close games is a negative thing. I know when I coach, blowing a team out shows nothing. Winning a close game shows me everything.

Shafer did win 50/50 games in 2013. His first ever year of being a head coach, and I think that 2013 team was less talented but they were more experienced and physically able to play hard throughout a whole ACC game.

 

[alphaorange]

Certainly those points are valid, to a degree. Ultimately, it's the HC's responsibility for getting the recruits, etc. in place. The IPF is in place as you mentioned, and he has had time to pitch that for a while in his recruiting sometime prior to its completion date as well as the other improvements. He has been in the system for 7 years. What trajectory? Isn't SS's winning percentage under .500% and isn't that what ultimately matters? I'm not suggesting his departure, and I'm all for stability, etc, I just see (objectively) the results and the results on the field have been coming up on the short end of the stick more times than not.

I see improvement and I'm a patient guy. I think things built more slowly tend to last longer. To me, this is like changing the culture of a pro franchise. Is the culture better? Yes. Is there stability? Yes. Is the recruiting better every year? Yes. Is the team easier to watch and do they bring some excitement, albeit inconsistently? Yes. Have these things translated to wins on the field? Not yet, but the season is not over and we are in every game we have lost, save one. We could legitimately be 5-2 and will be that team when the kids grow a little more. What I want to see and do see is not that one year 8-3 team, but a team that challenges for that or better every year because of solid recruits, coaching experience, and playing in front of a loud, supportive fan base, not a loud negative fan base.

 

[jekelish]

I just don't agree personally. I hate the idea of hiring a new coach though, you NEVER know what you're getting. A coach with history of improving programs and recruiting prowess could come in and do terrible. There are no guarantees at all. But the decision has to be made not for next year or the year after but for long term. If Coyle thinks Shafer isn't the right guy going forward than Coyle is under the belief that Shafer is a 6 -6 coach at best. If you hire the right guy, does it matter if the new guy goes 4 - 8 or 5 - 7 his first year if you believe Shafer could have ended up with a similar record himself.

Again, that's why I think the biggest question is, can Shafer beat AT LEAST our peer schools. He hasn't shown that he can on a regular basis or even 50/50. He also hasn't shown that he can coach a team to a big win either, I don't know how important that is at the end of the day but the record against teams with similar talent is really troubling I think.

So you're good with losing 1/3 of our '15 class and a good portion of our '16 class, which are probably two of the most talented groups we've brought in in a long time? I'm just not comfortable with that, especially with some of the names who would leave in '15.

 

[jgeorge322]

Anyone who truely knows football can understand.

Im in the same boat as you but you are generalizing. Sometimes 3 years is enough to fire someone. This is not the case here.

 

[qdawgg]

I don't disagree with you that you have to make the plays to win the game. But I do wonder, do you factor this into the equation:

USF - had them stopped, momentum on our side...and a true freshman makes a freshman mistake.
UVA - had them stopped, with the lead...and a true sophomore makes a dumb mistake.
Pitt - had a second half lead, and our true freshman QB finally makes a couple bad throws on two straight possessions (I'm not remotely putting the game on Dungey, by the way; but obviously those two interceptions were killers).

My question is: doesn't the inexperience and absurd youth have to factor into being able close out games at least a little? These are all 18-19 year old kids in these crucial plays.

And again - I absolutely believe you have to be able to close out games. But just wondering if the youth and inexperience should be considered in the equation.

Absolutely. And that's why I've said over and over I don't know what the answer is. But there are a lot of teams that face similar situations and find ways to win. I'm not flaming but we don't even find ways to win just a few of those games each year. As @hole as this might sound. If you take out the wins Shafer has from the OOC teams, who have we beaten compared to how many losses do we have against those same type of schools. Other coaches and teams find ways to overcome those things. This coaching staff just hasn't. Maybe they will though, maybe with a little more talent and experience we turn a corner. He becomes a better coach with better talent. I have no idea. I want this to be true though.

 

[djorange1989]

He has Tyler Boyd.

Yeah stop with the Narduzzi vs Shafer crap. Narduzzi is doing a great job but he inherited WAY more talent than HCSS did. Shafer has a lot of talent on hand now but it is all very young. Not the case with Pitt, not at all.

 

[timkay99]

See, I think the young talent has to play into it. Not just because Shafer should get to see what he can do with it, but because I don't think people realize how important retention is in these decisions, and retention is going to take a big hit if Shafer goes. Not 1-2 freshmen. Not 1-2 recruits. I'm talking 7 current freshmen all saying they'll transfer if Shafer goes, and multiple recruits backing out. This thing will get blown the hell up. That HAS to be a consideration.

This is overstated. Its one thing to say it (I have been around this before and everyone says the same thing, they are leaving if a coach gets fired) but another thing to do it when the s*it hits the fans. You would leave all your friends, potentially fall behind on academics with credits not transferring and heading to an unknown situation.

Recruits is a different thing and there will be movement there without a doubt, but that happens with every coaching change.

I would be shocked if Shafer were fired and we lost 5 current freshmen who the new staff would want to retain.

 

[jekelish]

This is overstated. Its one thing to say it (I have been around this before and everyone says the same thing, they are leaving if a coach gets fired) but another thing to do it when the s*it hits the fans. You would leave all your friends, potentially fall behind on academics with credits not transferring and heading to an unknown situation.

Recruits is a different thing and there will be movement there without a doubt, but that happens with every coaching change.

I would be shocked if Shafer were fired and we lost 5 current freshmen who the new staff would want to retain.

I feel like if you knew some of the names talking about leaving if Shafer goes you'd be singing a different tune.

 

[qdawgg]

Shafer did win 50/50 games in 2013. His first ever year of being a head coach, and I think that 2013 team was less talented but they were more experienced and physically able to play hard throughout a whole ACC game.

That is true, you're right. I think that's part of why I don't know what to think one way or the other. After that season we've struggled in those same situations those. I understand the youth, inexperience, and injuries but again, other teams do win in those same situations. It's not easy and I wouldn't expect to do that 2 years in a row as we get talent in and gain experience. But two 3 - 9 seasons in a row, I think you have to look a little bit beyond just youth, inexperience, and injuries.

 

[money3189]

I also think we should ex out 2014 season. Im not counting that year. Im evaluating 2013, 2015 seasons. If the injuries Shafer endured that year happens to Marrone, Pasqualoni or MacPherson in their second years it would be similar results. Can you imagine Loeb at quarterback in 201o and 2011? We wouldnt have won a game.