Ineligible Receiver Downfield

[griddy]

A few observations about this potentially game-deciding play. 1. After watching it multiple times in slow motion, it was a remarkable effort. Dungey was hit as he was throwing the ball and still made an accurate pass. Hackett first hit the defensive end, then brushed off the linebacker. He was hitting the linebacker when the pass was in the air, freed himself, found the ball, twisted back and made a catch that was a lot harder than it looked, held on and gained 19 yards. 2. After the game, Coach Babers did not throw his tackle under the bus for the penalty. Conway played a great game against the toughest defensive line in the country. He was not to blame for the loss but instead was a major reason the Orange were in position to win.

 

[SWC75]

No.1 was the phantom roughing the kicker call against Notre Dame after a missed kick and time had expired, back in the day.

There was nothing phantom about that play:

Notre Dame vs. Syracuse, 11/18/1961 - Notre Dame Archives News & Notes

The bad call that galled me the most was when a Miami hurricane ran full on into our punt returner as he was trying to catch the ball in the Dome in '96 and the refs ruled he was blocked into the guy. There had been minimal contact with the blocker who was going in the other direction. the Miami guy brushed by him and leveled our returner. Miami recovered the ball, scored and took a 10-31 lead in the battle for the conference title. McNabb led a big come back that came up short, 31-38 and we wound up in a tie and went to the Liberty Bowl instead of the Orange Bowl.

 

[upperdeck]

i think the big issue with the call is no one really knows the rule.. is it like the passing over the line so if any part is still behind the line its good?

 

[SWC75]

Dude! He DID NOT whiff on that block! JHC! Anybody with any eye sight at all can tell that! Total hose job as it would have setup at least a field goal attempt and much less time available to Clemson. Horse manure call. Period.

It looks like he was blocking and the defender avoided his block. If he was trying to block someone, is he really an ineligible receiver? He is clearly more three yards down the field before the ball is released.

It seems kind of a silly rule. if he's ineligible, then a catch by Conway would be an incomplete pass. Why do you need more than that?

 

[upperdeck]

the blocking part just means if you are blocking someone you can take them beyond 3 yds.

 

[CousCuse]

There was nothing phantom about that play:

View attachment 140755

Notre Dame vs. Syracuse, 11/18/1961 - Notre Dame Archives News & Notes

The bad call that galled me the most was when a Miami hurricane ran full on into our punt returner as he was trying to catch the ball in the Dome in '96 and the refs ruled he was blocked into the guy. There had been minimal contact with the blocker who was going in the other direction. the Miami guy brushed by him and leveled our returner. Miami recovered the ball, scored and took a 10-31 lead in the battle for the conference title. McNabb led a big come back that came up short, 31-38 and we wound up in a tie and went to the Liberty Bowl instead of the Orange Bowl.

You are being bereft in your duties as bored historian (Not a minor charge), for not giving full coverage to that injustice.

 

[kuethstheman]

If you don't call that one, you might as well abolish the rule. It's about as clear as that infraction can be, short of Conway looking at Dungey and calling for the ball.

 

[sufandu]

Dude! He DID NOT whiff on that block! JHC! Anybody with any eye sight at all can tell that! Total hose job as it would have setup at least a field goal attempt and much less time available to Clemson. Horse manure call. Period.

I just now paused it just as Dungey releases the ball. Conway is farther downfield, by a hair but still farther, than the defender he was blocking. If he holds the block a half second longer, he's good. He didn't. It was the correct call.

 

[sufandu]

It looks like he was blocking and the defender avoided his block. If he was trying to block someone, is he really an ineligible receiver? He is clearly more three yards down the field before the ball is released.

It seems kind of a silly rule. if he's ineligible, then a catch by Conway would be an incomplete pass. Why do you need more than that?

Because defenders need to know who to defend and shouldn't be expected to stare at the numbers on the jerseys to know who, in the mass of humanity after the snap, is an eligible receiver. Think about a scramble play like McNabb used to pull off where everything gets crazy. In the midst of that the Center runs 15 yards down field. Now a LB, not sure if he is the Center or a TE hesitates, while the TE runs open 10 yards down field. The TE gets the catch, the C blocks the guy "defending" him, and the TE goes for 25 yards. How would that be fair?

 

[OburgCuse]

Courtesy of Mike McAllister at 2-4

 

[SWC75]

You are being bereft in your duties as bored historian (Not a minor charge), for not giving full coverage to that injustice.

The issue was not whether Sweeney ran into the kicker. He got the holder, too. Go to the 31 minute mark of this documentary:



the issues were purely about interpretation of the rules. The refs ruled that the game cannot end on a penalty against the defense and marched off 15 yards , giving Notre Dame an extra play which they used to kick the game-winning field goal. Syracuse pointed out that the rules also said that once a ball is kicked, the kicking team becomes the defense team: Syracuse was the offensive team at the point Sweeney made contact. the NCAA agreed but also said that that rule #1 was that the score at the end of the game was the final core of the game, meaning that even if an error was acknowledged after the game had ended the NCAA could do nothing to change the final score. Syracuse pointed out that, under the rules, the game ended with the unsuccessful kick, since we were the offensive team at the point of the infraction. The NCAA said they could do nothing and that Syracuse's only recourse was to ask Notre Dame to concede the game, as Cornell had famously conceded the 5th down game to Dartmouth in 1940:

Fifth Down Game (1940) - Wikipedia

Notre Dame refused to concede and most of the country supported them, as there was no question the foul had been committed. This prompted the reference President Kennedy made in the speech shown in the documentary. The rule was changed the next year so that the kicking team didn't automatically become the defense in the instant of a placekick.

 

[SWC75]

Because defenders need to know who to defend and shouldn't be expected to stare at the numbers on the jerseys to know who, in the mass of humanity after the snap, is an eligible receiver. Think about a scramble play like McNabb used to pull off where everything gets crazy. In the midst of that the Center runs 15 yards down field. Now a LB, not sure if he is the Center or a TE hesitates, while the TE runs open 10 yards down field. The TE gets the catch, the C blocks the "defending" him, and the TE goes for 25 yards. How would that be fair?

Isn't that what the numbers are for?

 

[creatorsgam]

Lineman should be able to go anywhere they want, it's a stupid penalty. It as stupid as the "off sides" call in soccer.

Offsides isn’t a stupid penalty in soccer, though.

 

[kingtidge]

He was three yards past los when ball was released. He moved further when soft pass was in the air. Horseshart call

Said to my brother, there's the nail in the coffin call...

Hate that rule as it seems like a call refs look to make when they feel like it or in pivotal play sequences... And other times they just let it go.

The ref looked like he pre-positioned himself and almost looked like he picked out the lineman he was going to throw the flag on before the play.

Looked telegraphed and purposeful.

And BS on the timing of the release of ball as well.

 

[CousCuse]

The issue was not whether Sweeney ran into the kicker. He got the holder, too. Go to the 31 minute mark of this documentary:



the issues were purely about interpretation of the rules. The refs ruled that the game cannot end on a penalty against the defense and marched off 15 yards , giving Notre Dame an extra play which they used to kick the game-winning field goal. Syracuse pointed out that the rules also said that once a ball is kicked, the kicking team becomes the defense team: Syracuse was the offensive team at the point Sweeney made contact. the NCAA agreed but also said that that rule #1 was that the score at the end of the game was the final core of the game, meaning that even if an error was acknowledged after the game had ended the NCAA could do nothing to change the final score. Syracuse pointed out that, under the rules, the game ended with the unsuccessful kick, since we were the offensive team at the point of the infraction. The NCAA said they could do nothing and that Syracuse's only recourse was to ask Notre Dame to concede the game, as Cornell had famously conceded the 5th down game to Dartmouth in 1940:

Fifth Down Game (1940) - Wikipedia

Notre Dame refused to concede and most of the country supported them, as there was no question the foul had been committed. This prompted the reference President Kennedy made in the speech shown in the documentary. The rule was changed the next year so that the kicking team didn't automatically become the defense in the instant of a placekick.

Meh. Does it matter that "most of the country" was behind Notre Dame? They were given that game against the rules that existed at that point.

 

[upperdeck]

so by this picture its a legal play.

 

[upperdeck]

this note from a couple years ago from the NCAA

"We've said it -- this is going to be a hard and fast 3-yard rule," said Redding, also the NCAA's coordinator of football officials. "In other words, we're not going to allow some (leeway), where it's 3-and-a-half or four yards, we'll give them that. We're going to be diligent about enforcing the rule as it's written."

 

[JoeySimz]

View attachment 140762Courtesy of Mike McAllister at 2-4

this note from a couple years ago from the NCAA

"We've said it -- this is going to be a hard and fast 3-yard rule," said Redding, also the NCAA's coordinator of football officials. "In other words, we're not going to allow some (leeway), where it's 3-and-a-half or four yards, we'll give them that. We're going to be diligent about enforcing the rule as it's written."

So, looks like Conway’s foot is still within three yards.
A split second later the ball is released and Conway might be slightly past the three yards. At this point, though, he is allowed to go anywhere he pleases, right?

Anyone still think it’s the right call? How can a ref watch the lineman feet and a throw at the same time?

 

[upperdeck]

ref cant see both which is why its supposed to be called ig obvious not marginal.

 

[RandomGuy]

Here's the rule, straight from the rule book. Doesn't matter if he's blocking someone. Penalty was legit. Each one called this year, against us, has been.

Ineligible Receiver Downfield ARTICLE 10. No originally ineligible receiver shall be or have been more than three yards beyond the neutral zone until a passer throws a legal forward pass that crosses the neutral zone. A player is in violation of this rule if any part of his body is beyond the three-yard limit (A.R. 7-3-10-I and -III). PENALTY—Five yards from the previous spot [S37].

 

[sufandu]

Isn't that what the numbers are for?

I think they're more for identification for the refs. Certainly players use them presnap. After the snap, things happen too fast for defenders to identify numbers of multiple opponents while watching the qb and dissect the play. I'm curious, how long has it been since you played sports?

 

[CousCuse]

In fairly officiated contests of any kind, it is an unwritten rule to
"swallow the whistle" on all but very egregious infractions late in the contest. The idea is to let the players decide the outcome and not them. It is obvious this wasn't their intention in this game.

 

[Crusty]

So, looks like Conway’s foot is still within three yards.
A split second later the ball is released and Conway might be slightly past the three yards. At this point, though, he is allowed to go anywhere he pleases, right?

Anyone still think it’s the right call? How can a ref watch the lineman feet and a throw at the same time?

Yes. The ball has to be beyond the neutral zone, which is beyond the LOS not just released.

 

[Crusty]

Isn't that what the numbers are for?

Different numbers (TE) may or may not be eligible depending on whether or not they are "covered" on the line. Besides, who can read our lousy Nike uniform numbers?!

 

[Townie72]

Conway did go out to block but the Clemson guy sidestepped him so he whiffed and his momentum seemed to carry him.

Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!

It's a pleasure to hear from someone who actually watched the replay and saw what happened!