Interesting Look at Our Offense

[Orangepace]

Thought this was a good overview of one of our main offensive plays, from a ND blogger.

Inside Zone Read Option with Backside Bubble (a.k.a. The Syracuse Offense)

I think there was a Penn St. article of a similar nature last year. I really wish we had writers who were knowledgable enough about the game to write articles like this. They're actually really fun to read/analyze.

 

[Crusty]

I don't know about that - Lester's interview from last night was telling. He said Hunt was making really good reads in the running game and got them into a handful of huge gains. I think he's doing more than most are giving him credit for...

Do you have a link for Lester's interview?

 

[TheCusian]

Do you have a link for Lester's interview?

Yep - I think it's on this page.

 

[Millhouse]

No easy answers. Good Ds will disguise those looks or look to influence the pre snap reads. After counting the box, the 2nd read is often the playside OLB (is he in flat coverage or cheating toward the twin WRs). Sometimes the OLB will split the difference and the S (not the DBs involved with coverage of the WR at the LOS), will either walk down to the box or cheat out to the WR or play straight up. Sometimes they rotate just before the snap (presumably after the read), or make it look like they are committing pre snap, or they rotate/fly there on the snap, or they play it straight up as per initial alignment. It's a chess game, with some guessing mixed in too. We are told that Hunt is doing well with the correct reads pre snap, and on the zone run options. But it's never as simple as hey, there are 2 blockers and 3 defenders but we decided to throw it there anyway, even though it might look that way.

Getting tricked into throwing bad bubble screen would be a big improvement . The decisions they've been screwing up are easy and obvious

 

[SmilinBob]

I'm not so convinced he's good at reading the DE yet though it's getting better. Vs Nova there were multiple read options where he got the keep/pull wrong.

That said, he is still a young QB and perhaps I (and others) had some unrealistic expectations at where he should be at this point.

I think, perhaps, our reads are sent in from the booth/sideline once they see the defense and we aren't asking Hunt to make presnap reads thus the hurry up and wait approach.

Those are the things he should have talked to Manning about, not what Omaha was.

 

[ImperialOrange]

Those are the things he should have talked to Manning about, not what Omaha was.

I'm not sure Peyton or Eli would be considered experts In any play where the QB running is an option.

 

[SmilinBob]

I'm not sure Peyton or Eli would be considered experts In any play where the QB running is an option.

True but Peyton is a computer at reading and preparing for defenses. That's where I would pick his mind and he'd have to stop me from asking questions.

 

[Millhouse]

too many of the bubble screens there are DBs in the WRs face long before he can even get set to make a move.

you should only throw the bubble screens when there won't be a db in the WRs face. you can't cheat to the run and be in a WRs face at the same time. i'm a broken record but this isn't hard.

 

[upperdeck]

the question will always be why are forcing the bubble screen so much, is it poor reads or lack of flexibility in the play calls

 

[Millhouse]

the question will always be why are forcing the bubble screen so much, is it poor reads or lack of flexibility in the play calls

i have to think that if they're poor reads, they would've gotten corrected by now. the more it happens, the more it appears like it's play calls

 

[PhatOrange]

the question will always be why are forcing the bubble screen so much, is it poor reads or lack of flexibility in the play calls

I think its the play that's been called and not a read. A few sure have seemed that way.

 

[upperdeck]

in which case you have to question what they are doing even more. if the D lines up 4 guys out there do we still have to throw it? there has to be some other play , some dynamic to audible to.

 

[TheCusian]

I think its the play that's been called and not a read. A few sure have seemed that way.

There's very little evidence either way. Lots of conjecture...

If it's a read, it's s bad one - stop it.
If it's a called play, it's a bad one - stop it.

The who and how is less important the why.

 

[007]

i have to think that if they're poor reads, they would've gotten corrected by now. the more it happens, the more it appears like it's play calls

To know with certainty that they are "poor reads" you would have to have a crystal clear understanding of exactly what those progression read keys are for each defensive alignment. Admittedly, I know nothing of your football background, but I am going to suggest to you again that it is more complex than you are implying. One example, it's not the DB in the "face" of the WR that is keyed to determine whether he is "cheating" the run. In the simplest form for most Spreads, the run/screen reads are box, OLB, playside S alignment, and coverage.

I seriously doubt that they will ever run a hard bubble call (going to run that play regardless) w/o going through a presnap read progression. IMO, the screens that are getting blown up are the result of execution, timing, missed blocks, poor throws, good play/schemes by the D, and/or talent disparity.

 

[Millhouse]

To know with certainty that they are "poor reads" you would have to have a crystal clear understanding of exactly what those progression read keys are for each defensive alignment. Admittedly, I know nothing of your football background, but I am going to suggest to you again that it is more complex than you are implying. One example, it's not the DB in the "face" of the WR that is keyed to determine whether he is "cheating" the run. In the simplest form for most Spreads, the run/screen reads are box, OLB, playside S alignment, and coverage.

I seriously doubt that they will ever run a hard bubble call (going to run that play regardless) w/o going through a presnap read progression. IMO, the screens that are getting blown up are the result of execution, timing, missed blocks, poor throws, good play/schemes by the D, and/or talent disparity.

i have no football background. unlike the coaches, i have a background counting.

too many examples of blown up screens where it has no chance before the ball is even snapped.

safeties aren't blowing up these screens without being counted pre-snap. how fast do you guys think safeties are?

i know a bubble screen can fail even when you have numbers. your guys have to block. and we've had a few lousy throws and catches. but i don't know how you can watch the bulk of these and not see that they're doomed to failure ahead of time

 

[Millhouse]

never mind tried to embed the video an hour in didn't work


pop the video out by clicking the youtube logo then append

#t=1h7m37s

a non-bubble screen wide open to mcfarlane, i think

 

[Pat Kelly]

Its pretty much the type of offense for which you begged for so long. I know we haven't scored points yet but that is just growing pains for this team. I think McD has done a good job of creating packages for Hunt and it will pay off before the end of the season.

And we'll get some QBs (Long, who apparently is getting rave reviews by coaches, and Edouard) who will spend their entire time at Syracuse in the system. That's gotta help a lot.

 

[RF2044]

IMO, the screens that are getting blown up are the result of execution, timing, missed blocks, poor throws, good play/schemes by the D, and/or talent disparity.

Agreed. Very frustrating how poorly executed those plays are.

 

[CU44SE]

There was a time during the game, can't remember the exact time ehen it occurre but Maryland had 3 down lineman and we still ran a bubble screen.

 

[TheCusian]

i have no football background. unlike the coaches, i have a background counting. too many examples of blown up screens where it has no chance before the ball is even snapped. safeties aren't blowing up these screens without being counted pre-snap. how fast do you guys think safeties are? i know a bubble screen can fail even when you have numbers. your guys have to block. and we've had a few lousy throws and catches. but i don't know how you can watch the bulk of these and not see that they're doomed to failure ahead of time

This numbers thing is becoming a bit of an urban myth. The majority of the time it's 2 on 2, or 3 on 3. Not good - but not outnumbered.

 

[Millhouse]

This numbers thing is becoming a bit of an urban myth. The majority of the time it's 2 on 2, or 3 on 3. Not good - but not outnumbered.

sorry, should've been more clear. 3 on 3 = 2 guys blocking, 3 guys trying to tackle. blockers are outnumbered.

bubble screens work best when you have them out numbered when a DB or LB cheats inside

running qb reads a defender out of the play. defense cheats to give them the advantage in the box. throw the bubble screen because you now have the advantage outside.

we got people in this thread talking about safeties? irrelevant! if they're far enough back where they're not part of the simple count, you'll get 5 yards before they're even a factor.

rich rod quote "The bubble screen is given, not taken. It's thrown against a defense that wants to cheat their alley players into a gray area, looking to be able to play both the run and the pass. They're trying to cheat their alignments over the slot receivers. The bubble screen takes away the defense's ability to cheat the run lanes."

are we throwing bubble screens when they're cheating? or is rodriguez all wet?

 

[TheCusian]

sorry, should've been more clear. 3 on 3 = 2 guys blocking, 3 guys trying to tackle. blockers are outnumbered.

bubble screens work best when you have them out numbered when a DB or LB cheats inside

running qb reads a defender out of the play. defense cheats to give them the advantage in the box. throw the bubble screen because you now have the advantage outside.

we got people in this thread talking about safeties? irrelevant! if they're far enough back where they're not part of the simple count, you'll get 5 yards before they're even a factor.

rich rod quote "The bubble screen is given, not taken. It's thrown against a defense that wants to cheat their alley players into a gray area, looking to be able to play both the run and the pass. They're trying to cheat their alignments over the slot receivers. The bubble screen takes away the defense's ability to cheat the run lanes."

are we throwing bubble screens when they're cheating? or is rodriguez all wet?

I think you want numbers 1st - best chance for a good gain (like Maryland did to us). But 3 on 3 isn't that horrible if the defenders are off the line by 5-8 yds (and if your WR are good blockers). As we've talked about - in this offense you need to throw it a few times a game to set up other elements - and if you can get 4-7 yds a pop, you do it. Problem is we are averaging 2-3 yards (at best).

Somethings def broken about the play. Here's to hoping they figured it out this week.

 

[Millhouse]

I think you want numbers 1st - best chance for a good gain (like Maryland did to us). But 3 on 3 isn't that horrible if the defenders are off the line by 5-8 yds (and if your WR are good blockers). As we've talked about - in this offense you need to throw it a few times a game to set up other elements - and if you can get 4-7 yds a pop, you do it. Problem is we are averaging 2-3 yards (at best).

Somethings def broken about the play. Here's to hoping they figured it out this week.

yes, i agree with that. if they give you a big enough cushion, just take it if even if he's unblocked. i don't think we're getting that kind of cushion though

 

[007]

sorry, should've been more clear. 3 on 3 = 2 guys blocking, 3 guys trying to tackle. blockers are outnumbered.

bubble screens work best when you have them out numbered when a DB or LB cheats inside

running qb reads a defender out of the play. defense cheats to give them the advantage in the box. throw the bubble screen because you now have the advantage outside.

we got people in this thread talking about safeties? irrelevant! if they're far enough back where they're not part of the simple count, you'll get 5 yards before they're even a factor.

rich rod quote "The bubble screen is given, not taken. It's thrown against a defense that wants to cheat their alley players into a gray area, looking to be able to play both the run and the pass. They're trying to cheat their alignments over the slot receivers. The bubble screen takes away the defense's ability to cheat the run lanes."

are we throwing bubble screens when they're cheating? or is rodriguez all wet?

I'm one of those dopes talking about irrelevant safeties. So we will use your Rich Rod quote - who do you think the alley players are that are cheating into the run lanes? In a 4-3, there are 7 in box. If the playside OLB moves from flat coverage to hedge the twin WRs (now 6 in the box), the free SS can still walk down into the box to "cheat" the run. It happens all the time, and ND will do it all night Saturday, and they will still throw bubble screens into what you think is coverage.

Kind of funny that you quote the "bubble screen is given, not taken" because it disproves your other "theory" that the bubble play must being called b/c, unlike you, the coaches at SU can't count, and therefore are calling the play just to call the play.

Give it a rest.

 

[Chris02M]

the last game they didn't use the bubble screen that much. Nova game used it a lot with young qb with no experience is probably a factor. WMU rean less than the week before but still too many was probably a big key in there gameplan