Is Scoop Jardine our Tony Romo?

[fanfanclubclub]

People love making arguments without numbers and without viewing seasons and players in context. Scoop is a victim of this. Basically Scoop's sins are that he's not as athletic as Flynn and not as dynamic as Sherm. Otherwise he compares favorably to any PG we've had on the Hill.

I'm not sure that Scoop compares favorably to the Pearl or Billy-in-his-prime, but let's leave that issue aside for a second.

Even if Scoop is one of the best 3 recent Cuse point guards, that doesn't necessarily mean he is good enough to be the starting point guard for this Syracuse team. Similarly, Romo may be "a good quarterback," he is the 2nd best recent Dallas QB and the 3rd/4th best Dallas QB of all time: but that doesn't necessarily mean that he is good enough to lead a team that is aiming for a championship.

Take North Carolina as an analogy. They, like the Cuse, are among the favorites to win the whole thing. Every player on North Carolina, just like every player on the Cuse, is very good. But because the stakes are so high, UNC can not settle with merely good. They need Kendall Marshall to be championship-level great.

If Marshall had struggled at the World University Games to the same degree that Scoop did, he would be on the hot seat the minute he returned to campus. If Marshall is merely 'better than Adrian Autry,' UNC fans will be very disappointed. If Marshall posts a lousy 1.18 points-per-shot like Scoop did last season, he will get kicked to the curb like Larry Drew II, so that the "next man up" (who happens to be an All American) can play. The main reason Scoop faces more criticism than Autry and Hart, is that Autry and Hart didn't have all americans sitting behind them.

Scoop is a great player. He plays for Cuse, so naturally, he is a great player. Southerland is a great player. Mookie is a serious baller. These guys are great. Most any school, except the very very best, would love to feature these guys. But there is a reason why Autry, Hart, et al did not cut down the nets: they lacked truly elite, transcendental talent. That is the same reason why Mookie doesn't play, Southerland barely plays, and some people think Scoop ought not play as much as he does.

If Southerland is better than Damone Brown, should he start? Such comparisons don't matter, the real question is how does Southerland compare to KJo, ThickBurger, and Xmas. Even if Southerland had posted good counting stats last season, he shouldn't get starters minutes over the 3 more-talented forwards. So what does it matter if Jardine is better than Allen Griffin?

There is a chance that Scoop is the fourth best point guard on this team (assist totals notwithstanding). That's how great Syracuse has gotten as a program. Many scouting and advanced stat communities (Hollinger, Basketball Prospectus, etc.) rank both Triche and Waiters ahead of Scoop, and obviously MCW is a Micky D. We have four combo guards on this team who all compare pretty well, talent-wise, to any guards that we have recently had. Any of the four could end up challenging the legacies of Flynn, Sherm and Pearl. Are we sure that Scoop is the one of the four that we want to hand the keys too? Even great programs only get a handful of legitimate national championship opportunities.

Scoop is both unlucky and lucky that he happened to come along during Syracuse's recruiting peak. As our program grows in stature, so too does the measuring stick by which our players are judged. That is why the Dallas/Romo comparison works well. In Dallas, failing to win a championship is unacceptable. Scoop has failed to win a championship so far. We all know he is good, even very good: but is he championship good?

I think he is championship good, but only as a 'first guard off the bench' instant-offense combo guard. So far, he has not shown a championship-caliber approach to the point guard position: I don't think many people would argue that he has.

Formerly, our starters did not need to be championship caliber in order for us to achieve our goals: with few exceptions, that is no longer the case. Let's hope Scoop is up to the task.

 

[JOC44]

Point guards since Sherm who had better junior years than Scoop: Red Autry, Mike Lloyd, Jason Hart, Allen Griffin. That's actually a lot, as the only guys I can think of who were true points and started as a junior are those guys plus Mike Edwards (I'm treating GMAC as a two guard and excluding Stevie Thompson as a fish out of water).

Stats mean little here because context is so important. I'm rooting for Scoop to have a great year.

 

[OttoMets]

Point guards since Sherm who had better junior years than Scoop: Red Autry, Mike Lloyd, Jason Hart, Allen Griffin. That's actually a lot, as the only guys I can think of who were true points and started as a junior are those guys plus Mike Edwards (I'm treating GMAC as a two guard and excluding Stevie Thompson as a fish out of water).

Stats mean little here because context is so important. I'm rooting for Scoop to have a great year.

The passage of time warps these perceptions.

We overrate Lloyd. He had a very uneven junior year. Hart had a mediocre junior year on the offensive end of the court. And keep in mind that Griffin didn't start a game during his junior year. Boeheim stuck him behind Tony Bland; Griffin had a couple moments - played very well against Michigan State - but was very limited (unjustifiably so, I thought - he was better than Bland and should've earned the starting job).

Scoop matches up favorably with all but the top three or so Syracuse point guards. More important, he's demonstrated that he's the best point guard on his current team.

Some fans don't like him and won't like him. I bet billsin01 is going to have to re-post his statistics at some point between now and March, but it won't be the fault of Scoop.

 

[bnoro]

Scoop was coming off of a poor frosh campaign and an injured soph campaign when he broke out as a R. Soph. He played well as the seventh man, but didn't have to deal with big expectations: few seventh men do.

The fact that Scoop was top 50-ish high school recruit doesn't mean that there were high expectations for Scoop during his redshirt soph season. Mookie Jones was also a top 50-ish recruit coming out of high school, but very little was expected out of Mookie during last season (his redshirt soph season).

Logic > insults.

Pretty sure people expected Mookie to be instantly good coming out of high school, he was more highly rated than Kris. You said not much was expected of him, I'm saying obviously a lot was since he was one of our most highly rated recruits that year. Same way I expect Fab to show his talents and break out this year.

Scoop absolutely had the expectations from fans he would be a stud and live up to his recruiting ranking.

Also, did that shot Scoop hit against UConn to send us to OT in the BET last year slip your mind? Doesn't seem like a very Tony Romo moment to me... Honestly the whole comparison is ridiculous. Clearly you are a Scoop detractor and when Scoop has a fantastic year, you'll disappear like Jambandjunki and his Andy Rautins postings.

 

[fanfanclubclub]

Pretty sure people expected Mookie to be instantly good coming out of high school, he was more highly rated than Kris. You said not much was expected of him.

Please read a little more carefully: I said not much was expected of Jardine during his redshirt soph season. Similarly, not much was expected of Jones during his redshirt soph season.

And Rautins critics were banned, they didn't disappear. I know, because I was banned for simply critiquing Andy.

 

[billsin01]

Point guards since Sherm who had better junior years than Scoop: Red Autry, Mike Lloyd, Jason Hart, Allen Griffin. That's actually a lot, as the only guys I can think of who were true points and started as a junior are those guys plus Mike Edwards (I'm treating GMAC as a two guard and excluding Stevie Thompson as a fish out of water).

Stats mean little here because context is so important. I'm rooting for Scoop to have a great year.

Huh? Stats mean little b/c context is so important. OK, well what context are talking about? I'm afraid you're making my point for me.

Autry's junior year was, at best, a wash with Jardine's. He average about a point more per game and shot about 1.5% better from the floor, but was 6% worse from three and averaged 5.5 assists to Scoop's 5.9. And Autry's team was 20-9. Same for Lloyd: basically the same number of points as Scoop, higher FG% but worse from 3 and about an assist less per game. Team went 20-10.

Griffin reached double figures once and scored 96 points ... total. Um, no that wasn't a great season.

 

[billsin01]

I'm not sure that Scoop compares favorably to the Pearl or Billy-in-his-prime, but let's leave that issue aside for a second.

Even if Scoop is one of the best 3 recent Cuse point guards, that doesn't necessarily mean he is good enough to be the starting point guard for this Syracuse team. Similarly, Romo may be "a good quarterback," he is the 2nd best recent Dallas QB and the 3rd/4th best Dallas QB of all time: but that doesn't necessarily mean that he is good enough to lead a team that is aiming for a championship.

Take North Carolina as an analogy. They, like the Cuse, are among the favorites to win the whole thing. Every player on North Carolina, just like every player on the Cuse, is very good. But because the stakes are so high, UNC can not settle with merely good. They need Kendall Marshall to be championship-level great.

If Marshall had struggled at the World University Games to the same degree that Scoop did, he would be on the hot seat the minute he returned to campus. If Marshall is merely 'better than Adrian Autry,' UNC fans will be very disappointed. If Marshall posts a lousy 1.18 points-per-shot like Scoop did last season, he will get kicked to the curb like Larry Drew II, so that the "next man up" (who happens to be an All American) can play. The main reason Scoop faces more criticism than Autry and Hart, is that Autry and Hart didn't have all americans sitting behind them.

Scoop is a great player. He plays for Cuse, so naturally, he is a great player. Southerland is a great player. Mookie is a serious baller. These guys are great. Most any school, except the very very best, would love to feature these guys. But there is a reason why Autry, Hart, et al did not cut down the nets: they lacked truly elite, transcendental talent. That is the same reason why Mookie doesn't play, Southerland barely plays, and some people think Scoop ought not play as much as he does.

If Southerland is better than Damone Brown, should he start? Such comparisons don't matter, the real question is how does Southerland compare to KJo, ThickBurger, and Xmas. Even if Southerland had posted good counting stats last season, he shouldn't get starters minutes over the 3 more-talented forwards. So what does it matter if Jardine is better than Allen Griffin?

There is a chance that Scoop is the fourth best point guard on this team (assist totals notwithstanding). That's how great Syracuse has gotten as a program. Many scouting and advanced stat communities (Hollinger, Basketball Prospectus, etc.) rank both Triche and Waiters ahead of Scoop, and obviously MCW is a Micky D. We have four combo guards on this team who all compare pretty well, talent-wise, to any guards that we have recently had. Any of the four could end up challenging the legacies of Flynn, Sherm and Pearl. Are we sure that Scoop is the one of the four that we want to hand the keys too? Even great programs only get a handful of legitimate national championship opportunities.

Scoop is both unlucky and lucky that he happened to come along during Syracuse's recruiting peak. As our program grows in stature, so too does the measuring stick by which our players are judged. That is why the Dallas/Romo comparison works well. In Dallas, failing to win a championship is unacceptable. Scoop has failed to win a championship so far. We all know he is good, even very good: but is he championship good?

I think he is championship good, but only as a 'first guard off the bench' instant-offense combo guard. So far, he has not shown a championship-caliber approach to the point guard position: I don't think many people would argue that he has.

Formerly, our starters did not need to be championship caliber in order for us to achieve our goals: with few exceptions, that is no longer the case. Let's hope Scoop is up to the task.

I'm not exactly sure how to interpret this post b/c I feel like you're making several assertions. I'll try to take them, as I interpret them, one by one.

Scoop is not an elite guard
I don't necessarily disagree with this. I think he could improve and be pretty damn good but no, he's not Kemba Walker. Nor is he Sherm. Nor is he Pearl -- all of which I state in my original post.

A team needs a transcendently talented PG to win a national championship.
Not sure where this comes from but we were in the title game with Z Sims -- real good, true PG but hardly an elite talent. We won one with a combination of GMac and Edelin, both of whom I loved but both were frosh and neither was in the class of the best PGs we had. GMac was playing out of position and Edelin had a world of potential but was a true frosh. And Larry Drew shot 21% from 3, 31% from the floor and averaged 4 assists for UNC last year. The problem isn't that he's not championship caliber. It's that he sort of sucks. As for Autry and Hart -- I like them both and each was a key reason their teams had success. I find it hard to point to PG play as the primary reason their teams didn't win titles.

Scoop may be the 4th best PG on the team
I don't get this. Dion is talented but also told the coach off. MCW hasn't proven a thing -- we've had mcd's who've done nothing before (Fab, Greene was good but not great, etc). Triche was the PG two years ago, but Jardine was the better ball-handler. I don't see where that has changed. I'm not only convinced Scoop is the best PG on this team, but unless I see that Dion has matured or Triche has significantly improved his handle or that MCW is really advanced for a frosh, I'm not even sure there is a close second.

Southerland won't play
I actually think he will play more than most people think and while he's probably not headed to the NBA anytime soon, I think he's a pretty capable player with discernible skills that could, conceivably, play a role on a championship team.

 

[jordoo]

Scoop was a first year starting PG last season for a team that any one of us could have told you before the season started would struggle offensively to create shots.

We had problems with our outside shooting (which is why JB gave James chance after chance over CJ), Fab and Baye were non factors offensively, Kris and Brandon struggled to be effective drivers/creators, Rick was efficient but limited, Dion was erratic and shot very poorly from deep, James was great twuice and not good enough the rest of the time and CJ was a great garbage man and crafty slasher.

Thats the team that Scoop was running it wasn't a great offensive team and struggled to find shots in the half court. He didn't have a automatic post up guy in AO or lights out shooters in Wes and Andy. Teams didn't have to respect our perimeter guys shots nor did they really have to colapse on any of our bigs.

All things considered I think Scoop had a pretty good 1st season as a starting PG and believe me he had me yelling at the TV more than any of the other players. I thought he tried to do way too much at key moments but at least he tried. Say what you want but Brandon and Kris often passed up shots in those important moments while Scoop was at least un afraid to fail.

I don't think he will be in taht same situation this season. I expect Brandon and Kris to be more assertive, I expect CJ and Dion to be able to creat good shots for themselves and others when we need that sort of thing. I expect Kris, Scoop, Brandon and Dion to all shoot it better from the perimeter. I think Baye and Fab will improve although I have no idea if they will provide a viable inside threat. I expect Scoop ti imporve but also the pieces around him to perform better and make him look better while doing so.

 

[bnoro]

Please read a little more carefully: I said not much was expected of Jardine during his redshirt soph season. Similarly, not much was expected of Jones during his redshirt soph season.

And Rautins critics were banned, they didn't disappear. I know, because I was banned for simply critiquing Andy.

You're cherry picking to fit your point though. I think many people expected a lot of Scoop from the get go. People were expecting stuff out of Mookie too. I don't understand why you have to be so derogatory to Scoop. Why don't you wait and see how well he plays this year before rushing to judgement.

 

[Orange Barrel]

Point guards since Sherm who had better junior years than Scoop: Red Autry, Mike Lloyd, Jason Hart, Allen Griffin. That's actually a lot, as the only guys I can think of who were true points and started as a junior are those guys plus Mike Edwards (I'm treating GMAC as a two guard and excluding Stevie Thompson as a fish out of water).

Stats mean little here because context is so important. I'm rooting for Scoop to have a great year.

Funny that you mention J. Hart, as he was dumped on about as much as Scoop by his Jr. year. Allen Griffin spent his Jr. season on the bench as Hart's back up, much to the annoyance of many here. (I think Igor still goes into spasms whenever the subject is broached.) He came back to have a superb Senior year.

 

[billsin01]

Funny that you mention J. Hart, as he was dumped on about as much as Scoop by his Jr. year. Allen Griffin spent his Jr. season on the bench as Hart's back up, much to the annoyance of many here. (I think Igor still goes into spasms whenever the subject is broached.) He came back to have a superb Senior year.

Yeah, no one remembers that both Hart and Griffin were absolutely abused as starters (some fairly, some unfairly) until they were seniors. Also, that both were significantly better players as seniors than they were at any other point in their careers.

 

[orangefan13]

With no offense to Romo in my opinion H$!! No!

Scoops problem is driving against a tough defender. Is he capable of it? Not so much choking.

I see the question being...
Do we need him to drive this year?
JB has stopped him from driving once we went to the big east and NCAA games the last two years(outside a few rare examples).
Instead we ran plays for AO, Rick, Wes, Joseph, Dion and Triche in isolation and he rarely got his chance or room to.

Will he have potential to get around the best of defenders in isolation if we need him to? ?Not sure if he has that in him but he WILL be a good floor leader reguardless.

Jardine has made some huge shots and got the ball to isolation artists. Its his ability to draw doubles and create against tough defenders that he has lacked.

 

[OttoMets]

Yeah, no one remembers that both Hart and Griffin were absolutely abused as starters (some fairly, some unfairly) until they were seniors. Also, that both were significantly better players as seniors than they were at any other point in their careers.

Maybe more than anyone else in Syracuse history, Jason Hart's current reputation is nothing like the reality of most of his SU career.

For three years, Hart was a poor shooter, an average passer, and a guy who could be counted upon to miss a third of his fast-break lay-ups. He was also a good defender, a good penetrator, and a 100% effort guy. And he, moreso than anyone not named John Wallace, saved our butts in the 1990s. Had he reneged on his commitment - as he tried to do in summer 1996 - we would have had David Patrick as our lone point guard (and maybe not, since he did transfer that summer). Without Hart - and he wasn't even very good - I think we'd have lost 20 games in 1996-1997.

Hart gets lionized. I have a ton of respect for the guy, but over the bulk of his career he was way closer to James Thues or Michael Edwards than any of the other point guards we've had in 25 years. He saved us and he deserves praise, but he only saw success when he had good tools around him in his sophomore and senior years. Watch the 1996-1997 games that Time Warner is going to start rerunning next month. Scary stuff.

(This probably doesn't come across well - not meaning to bash Hart, just noting that our current perception doesn't match up with the reality. People were down on him for 3 years when he was here. I was one of those people, but I still love the guy.)

 

[billsin01]

Maybe more than anyone else in Syracuse history, Jason Hart's current reputation is nothing like the reality of most of his SU career.

For three years, Hart was a poor shooter, an average passer, and a guy who could be counted upon to miss a third of his fast-break lay-ups. He was also a good defender, a good penetrator, and a 100% effort guy. And he, moreso than anyone not named John Wallace, saved our butts in the 1990s. Had he reneged on his commitment - as he tried to do in summer 1996 - we would have had David Patrick as our lone point guard (and maybe not, since he did transfer that summer). Without Hart - and he wasn't even very good - I think we'd have lost 20 games in 1996-1997.

Hart gets lionized. I have a ton of respect for the guy, but over the bulk of his career he was way closer to James Thues or Michael Edwards than any of the other point guards we've had in 25 years. He saved us and he deserves praise, but he only saw success when he had good tools around him in his sophomore and senior years. Watch the 1996-1997 games that Time Warner is going to start rerunning next month. Scary stuff.

(This probably doesn't come across well - not meaning to bash Hart, just noting that our current perception doesn't match up with the reality. People were down on him for 3 years when he was here. I was one of those people, but I still love the guy.)

Couldn't agree more in terms of perception. I think where Hart never really deserved quite as much criticism as he got was in the sense that he was constantly asked to be the focal point on offense for offensively challenged teams. That wasn't his game.

But generally, yeah, I think people see he's had a nice NBA career and figure it's fine to start hammering other PGs who probably won't.

 

[IthacaMatt]

That's 100% backwards.

Triche sometimes appears as if he is playing 'scared,' because Jardine so regularly puts our offense behind the 8-ball by dribbling without a purpose (other than looking for an alley oop or a 3) for 8-10 seconds, and then passing off to Triche.

When Jardine wastes time and fails to run the offense, Triche often gets his first touch with about 20 ticks left, and has to decide whether he (1) has enough time to run some actual offense, providing the team with much needed solid decision making and ball distribution, or (2) ought to instead try to create offense for himself. Jardine rarely passes in the flow of the offense, especially not to Triche. Instead, Triche commonly receives the ball on a "bail out" pass after Jardine talks himself out of chucking a 3.

People can cite raw counting stats like assists, and a:to all day, but the advanced metrics that measure efficiency and ball movement are very, very down on Scoop. I hope he proves all his critics wrong, but more than that, I hope Triche takes over point.

Brandon looked like he played scared at times last season because he charged too much on the drive, and he got frozen out some times when he was open for shots. The defensive no charge circle under the hoop is really going to help him (and Kris Jo) this year.

Brandon has to be an alpha dog out there if he wants to keep the starting job this season, and Scoop has to be better about passing the ball to guards who are not his cousin.

 

[SmilinBob]

I think it's a pretty good analogy and I thought I saw Scoop with Jessica Simpson the other day.

 

[Knicks411]

I am kind of all over the board when it comes to Scoop.

I think he's a solid PG, he had the 30th best assist rate in the NCAA last year, that's pretty freaking good. (Scoop had a better assist rate last year than Jonny did in either of his 2 years here).

I think Scoop is also a guy who has a somewhat inflated sense of his own value as a player; he was the third most likely SU player to shoot in 2010, and used more possessions than anyone else did that year as well. Last year he was the second most likely SU player to shoot, and once again used the most possessions. I don't think it's surprising his efficiency went down last year as he lost a ton of super efficient players from the year prior.

I think Scoop is the best PG we have. Dion didn't really show any ability to set up his teammates last year. Brandon has never been close to Scoop in terms of assists. I can't say anything about MCW, since I've never seen him play, but I have a feeling a 5th year senior is going to be a better PG than a freshmen, even a mcdonalds AA. (Freshmen usually struggle a lot with TO).