Is this rivalry going to survive?

[pearl31]

people longingly recalling Scoop/Triche - prolly the same people who wanted then permanently benched when they were on the team - good stuff

 

[Cusefan0307]

people longingly recalling Scoop/Triche - prolly the same people who wanted then permanently benched when they were on the team - good stuff

Lol so true.

 

[CaptainJ]

people longingly recalling Scoop/Triche - prolly the same people who wanted then permanently benched when they were on the team - good stuff

lol it reminds me of my father now liking music he avoided back when it was released, for whatever reasons, which now seem to matter less. Time and circumstance can justify the change in stance, even if we find amusement in it. I actually find it sad, if the downgrade is true and sticks for a chunk of the season at least.

 

[Townie72]

My thoughts are Syracuse trying to get into rivalries with Duke and UNC is unnatural. They had a rivalry in CBB with Georgetown that could stand up to any. To think they'll be able to fit in with those NC rivalries just won't happen. I actually think Syracuse will suffer longer term from the lack of geographical footprint that they held when they were in a NE centric conference that always had a BE tournament in NYC. It's a lose-lose for both programs.

It would help if before stating your opinion that you take off the disguise. Eagle54 is, of course. Golden Hoya with over 1,000 posts on the Hoya basketball board.

Given your strong support of the Georgetown basketball program, it's no wonder you say that SU vs Duke or UNC are "unnatural" and "just won't happen". A huge rivalry doesn't need to happen. We replaced games with National interest with other games of national interest.

Syracuse, for the sake of the entire athletic program, HAD to go to the ACC. There was no other rational choice. The basketball program will be fine. And the geographic dispersal won't hurt anymore than it when the Big East stretched from Miami to Milwaukee to Boston.

Instead of stealth posts on here, you need to worry about GU BB slipping into Mid-Major status or staying or becoming "relevant". And pondering your under-performing "Coach for Life" who the University cannot fire without the permission of Big John, which will never happen.

 

[RandygoCuse]

Well stated.

But a big part of rivalry is geography.
That's why the old BE was so great.
It was always a northeast neighborhood war (And for purposes of bolstering my position I include DC as the southern boundary of the modern northeast).

I LOOOOAAAATHE G-town.
Despise them with a passion.
Now led by the son of that big overstuffed phony of a coach.
If we beat them now and lose every other game it would still be a good season.
Those of you who weren't around can't imagine what an intense real rivalry it still is for many of us who were.

UConn? A lot of their fans are awful. Disliked Calhoun. Didn't care for his team. Big rival because of their success. But not nearly the same hatred.

Duke and UNC are great programs.
But we'll never have real rivalries with them beyond the way strong programs in the same conference are rivals.
They are each others arch-rivals.
Geography. ..now combined with history.

I find it a little embarrassing the way some people view Duke as a rival.
They're everyone's rival.
Everyone wants to beat them.
We're not really special...and you can't have a one-way rivalry.
And that's notwithstanding the fact that the first 2 ACC SU-Duke games were classics.

But SU-G-town?
THAT was special.

As the years move on...the G-town and UConn rivalries will fade.
Soon there won't be any actual SU students who experienced the expanded BE.
All they'll know will be the ACC.
History won't mean much - if anything.

Orange fans and college basketball will have lost a lot.

I agree that Duke isn't a true rival. Every team gets up for that game. But I disagree with you on another point. I think what was special about this rivalry is that it wasn't geography based. Unlike Duke/UNC, we aren't just down the road. It's based much more on history, primarily Thompson's Manley remark.

 

[CaptainJ]

Some of my first SU memories involved the adverse reaction to anything Georgetown. I may be somewhat unique, but I've lost a lot of memory, and time and other factors really changed the Georgetown relationshionship with SU. It was almost defining, for a time, but it now seems long passed. CJ dunking on Otto would still feel great, but maybe not as great as it "should" feel to me.

An easy NFL example is the Patriots. Buffalo and Miami had a defining revilary, but with Tom Brady's presence that evolved things for both the teams and fans, in terms of an organic rivalry. I have no idea how common that is, but it seemed like a good example to illustrate the necessity of new rivalries. Years of bitterness toward a dynasty can have some fans realigning their rivalries. It seems like we have a healthy mix on here.

I cant currently imagine any realistic circumstance this week that would anywhere near replicate the feeling of SU coming back against Georgetown, John Thompson being ejected, and the Cuse winning big. Ewing and Thompson helped build the rivalry, as did JB whom we still have in the formula like some of the old ones.

In short, I'll happily take former Big East foes instead of the usual cupcakes, but dont think it's beneficial to the team in certain circumstances if you want to clearly look at growth potential. I dont want to see the rest of the non cupcakes replaced with these guys. If it's additionally, I am all for it.

 

[CaptainJ]

I agree that Duke isn't a true rival. Every team gets up for that game. But I disagree with you on another point. I think what was special about this rivalry is that it wasn't geography based. Unlike Duke/UNC, we aren't just down the road. It's based much more on history, primarily Thompson's Manley remark.

Even with those things considered, the Cuse had the makings of starting a great rivalry. It fizzeled out quickly though because there were no further antics to keep the embers warm. That makes me appreciate the rivalries we had more, because it illustrates that it takes a lot of chance for certain ones to form. On the other hand there are geographic ones, which do form more easily. I'm sure someone could write a great book if they decided and were able to dissect the ingredients to greatest rivalries for the readers. Chemistry, like my avatar.

 

[eagle54]

It would help if before stating your opinion that you take off the disguise. Eagle54 is, of course. Golden Hoya with over 1,000 posts on the Hoya basketball board.

Given your strong support of the Georgetown basketball program, it's no wonder you say that SU vs Duke or UNC are "unnatural" and "just won't happen". A huge rivalry doesn't need to happen. We replaced games with National interest with other games of national interest.

Syracuse, for the sake of the entire athletic program, HAD to go to the ACC. There was no other rational choice. The basketball program will be fine. And the geographic dispersal won't hurt anymore than it when the Big East stretched from Miami to Milwaukee to Boston.

Instead of stealth posts on here, you need to worry about GU BB slipping into Mid-Major status or staying or becoming "relevant". And pondering your under-performing "Coach for Life" who the University cannot fire without the permission of Big John, which will never happen.

Actually eagle54 is eagle54 everywhere. I don't hide. There is no one named Golden Hoya, that would be like me calling you All Conference.

No one HAS to do anything. Syracuse sold out for the football cash and you know what will happen, your football program will continue to be bad as they can't compete in the ACC and unfortunately your basketball program will go the way of Boston College. You won't get the recruits from the Northeast like you once did. It won't happen overnight but it will happen. Soon Syracuse will be a middling ACC program looking up to the powers in the conference that you can't compete with and you'll think back to a better era.

Just one impartial opinion. I raised this thread as I thought it would be interesting to get the views of those here on the rivalry continuing and what Syracuse in the ACC would be like longer term. There is no one here that could tell me that move helped the basketball program.

As for our coach, that's Georgetown's issue. Lord knows Syracuse has its own issues with basketball coaches on and off the court. I think the Big East proved last year that mid major status isn't at risk anytime soon but it wasn't the Hoyas who put that stamp on that.

 

[Townie72]

Actually eagle54 is eagle54 everywhere. I don't hide. There is no one named Golden Hoya, that would be like me calling you All Conference.

No one HAS to do anything. Syracuse sold out for the football cash and you know what will happen, your football program will continue to be bad as they can't compete in the ACC and unfortunately your basketball program will go the way of Boston College. You won't get the recruits from the Northeast like you once did. It won't happen overnight but it will happen. Soon Syracuse will be a middling ACC program looking up to the powers in the conference that you can't compete with and you'll think back to a better era.

Just one impartial opinion. I raised this thread as I thought it would be interesting to get the views of those here on the rivalry continuing and what Syracuse in the ACC would be like longer term. There is no one here that could tell me that move helped the basketball program.

As for our coach, that's Georgetown's issue. Lord knows Syracuse has its own issues with basketball coaches on and off the court. I think the Big East proved last year that mid major status isn't at risk anytime soon but it wasn't the Hoyas who put that stamp on that.

We'll be better off than we would have been if we hadn't of been picked to the join the ACC.

You seem to be hoping that SU will be worse off and bolstering the argument with predictions you have no idea will happen or not happen.

As a hole card, SU has something GU doesn't ... an actual fan base that cares. We don't play in a half-empty Verizon Center or move our games to a DIII-like on-campus facility to make the games seem well-attended.

GU in the Big East is surrounded by near MidMajors. It's inevitable. Especially under the guidance of "Coach for Life" JT, Jr.

As John Feinstein has pointed out, there a very few schools where the BB team is less-representative of the student body. Now that the team is not pulling in the big bucks and the visibility that it used to, maybe DeGoia will decide to let the thing seek its natural level and be more like an Ivy League school.

 

[eagle54]

We'll be better off than we would have been if we hadn't of been picked to the join the ACC.

You seem to be hoping that SU will be worse off and bolstering the argument with predictions you have no idea will happen or not happen.

As a hole card, SU has something GU doesn't ... an actual fan base that cares. We don't play in a half-empty Verizon Center or move our games to a DIII-like on-campus facility to make the games seem well-attended.

GU in the Big East is surrounded by near MidMajors. It's inevitable. Especially under the guidance of "Coach for Life" JT, Jr.

As John Feinstein has pointed out, there a very few schools where the BB team is less-representative of the student body. Now that the team is not pulling in the big bucks and the visibility that it used to, maybe DeGoia will decide to let the thing seek its natural level and be more like an Ivy League school.

I think the fanbase is a result of being internationally renowned school with a smaller student body than many that has alumni from around the world versus a regional school with a large concentration of alumni/fans in the area. Also being in a major market with a lot more competition for entertainment dollars versus being the only show in upstate NY might have something to do with the attendance.

McDonough is small but there is a charm to it. It's not used for games but don't hold the Carrier Dome as AT&T stadium. That place has seen it's better days and is not up to today's standards by an measure.

I think the BE has done a good job of showing it's not packed with Mid Majors. That was a fear at the outset however Nova closed that door by beating your new rivals from the south. If you actually look at the adds to the conference that's where a lot of the strength is. It's actaully Georgetown, St. John's and DePaul that are dragging this down but that just shows how much there is to grow that. Basically, Syracuse is a basketball school that went for the football dollars which from a pure $ standpoint might make sense but you and I know it's not going to help the basketball program. The new BE could be something very special as it was a few decades ago. Especially as Northeast recruits realize they can play in a school that puts the focus on basketball versus being an afterthought to football.

My only point in this whole thread was to hear the feedback about leaving the BE and joining ACC because I would say most from a pure basketball perspective would think it's a bad move. That's not to say it's a move that the school needed to make from an economic standpoint. Syracuse to the ACC can be like Rutgers to the Big 10.

 

[skurey]

people longingly recalling Scoop/Triche - prolly the same people who wanted then permanently benched when they were on the team - good stuff

Do you have proof?

 

[Townie72]

I think the fanbase is a result of being internationally renowned school with a smaller student body than many that has alumni from around the world versus a regional school with a large concentration of alumni/fans in the area. Also being in a major market with a lot more competition for entertainment dollars versus being the only show in upstate NY might have something to do with the attendance.

McDonough is small but there is a charm to it. It's not used for games but don't hold the Carrier Dome as AT&T stadium. That place has seen it's better days and is not up to today's standards by an measure.

I think the BE has done a good job of showing it's not packed with Mid Majors. That was a fear at the outset however Nova closed that door by beating your new rivals from the south. If you actually look at the adds to the conference that's where a lot of the strength is. It's actaully Georgetown, St. John's and DePaul that are dragging this down but that just shows how much there is to grow that. Basically, Syracuse is a basketball school that went for the football dollars which from a pure $ standpoint might make sense but you and I know it's not going to help the basketball program. The new BE could be something very special as it was a few decades ago. Especially as Northeast recruits realize they can play in a school that puts the focus on basketball versus being an afterthought to football.

My only point in this whole thread was to hear the feedback about leaving the BE and joining ACC because I would say most from a pure basketball perspective would think it's a bad move. That's not to say it's a move that the school needed to make from an economic standpoint. Syracuse to the ACC can be like Rutgers to the Big 10.

Regardless of the reasons for it (a.k.a oft repeated excuses), the fact remains that Georgetown doesn't draw flies to games. Except when they play teams like SU and we take over 50% of the Verizon Center. Georgetown has a very small fan base. And that --- versus a lot of your stuff --- is a fact not an opinion.

Seems to me that the ACC is a positive in recruiting as is demonstrated not only by the new recruits we have but also the grad transfers. The ACC is the big time. The Big East may never regain its former position.

And please, comparing SU to the ACC to Rutgers to the B1G? Rutgers in two years has won one conference football game and they may also not have won a B1G basketball game.

Sounds to me that you are fishing on here for someone who might agree with you that we really, really miss the old Big East and that the ACC is too high a hill for us to climb in football and eventually basketball.

You are going to be disappointed in that quest.

 

[Scooch]

What's funny is that as a New Englander growing up in the 80s I hated SU and Georgetown equally. G'town for the reasons listed in this thread, and SU because Boeheim seemed like a whiny jerk who didn't care about fundamentals (hello, missed FTs) nor his players conduct off the court (some things never change).

Of course once I got to the Hill in '91 I embraced Boeheim and his program management.

SU-G'town will never be what it was, but honestly it wasn't what it was even when we were both still in the Big East. Once Thompson left the heat left with him.

 

[IthacaMatt]

unfortunately your basketball program will go the way of Boston College. You won't get the recruits from the Northeast like you once did. It won't happen overnight but it will happen. Soon Syracuse will be a middling ACC program looking up to the powers in the conference that you can't compete with and you'll think back to a better era.
.

I guess you missed us in those 2 Final Fours in the last four years.

You would be elated to trade places with our success and our recruiting compared to yours so far this decade.

 

[OrangeDW]

Actually eagle54 is eagle54 everywhere. I don't hide. There is no one named Golden Hoya, that would be like me calling you All Conference.

No one HAS to do anything. Syracuse sold out for the football cash and you know what will happen, your football program will continue to be bad as they can't compete in the ACC and unfortunately your basketball program will go the way of Boston College. You won't get the recruits from the Northeast like you once did. It won't happen overnight but it will happen. Soon Syracuse will be a middling ACC program looking up to the powers in the conference that you can't compete with and you'll think back to a better era.

Just one impartial opinion. I raised this thread as I thought it would be interesting to get the views of those here on the rivalry continuing and what Syracuse in the ACC would be like longer term. There is no one here that could tell me that move helped the basketball program.

As for our coach, that's Georgetown's issue. Lord knows Syracuse has its own issues with basketball coaches on and off the court. I think the Big East proved last year that mid major status isn't at risk anytime soon but it wasn't the Hoyas who put that stamp on that.

So what...we should've gave up on football, because Georgetown doesn't play it? The landscape is what it is. Not our fault. "Sold out"...how stupid. We've always played big boy football. We've had stretches where we were quite good at it too. Looking out for our best interests and not yours...cry about it. Step your own game up and fend for yourselves and stop whining about what others are doing.

And good luck building a new heated rivalry with Creighton or something.

 

[OrangeDW]

I agree that Duke isn't a true rival. Every team gets up for that game. But I disagree with you on another point. I think what was special about this rivalry is that it wasn't geography based. Unlike Duke/UNC, we aren't just down the road. It's based much more on history, primarily Thompson's Manley remark.

We can have a rivalry with Duke, just like Maryland had a rivalry with Duke. Duke-UNC will always be the rivalry. But Duke-Maryland was hot for awhile because Maryland was good, the games were good, and the games meant something. Cuse-Duke is off to a strong start. 3 of the 5 games were decided at the buzzer, and there was huge buzz for both games that first year because we were up at the top of the standings. If we win like we should, Cuse-Duke will be a strong rivalry. I think there's other elements that help too, like the fact that a ton of CNYers have relocated to NC, and that a ton of Duke students traditionally come from the northeast where Cuse is obviously a big name.

 

[RandygoCuse]

We can have a rivalry with Duke, just like Maryland had a rivalry with Duke. Duke-UNC will always be the rivalry. But Duke-Maryland was hot for awhile because Maryland was good, the games were good, and the games meant something. Cuse-Duke is off to a strong start. 3 of the 5 games were decided at the buzzer, and there was huge buzz for both games that first year because we were up at the top of the standings. If we win like we should, Cuse-Duke will be a strong rivalry. I think there's other elements that help too, like the fact that a ton of CNYers have relocated to NC, and that a ton of Duke students traditionally come from the northeast where Cuse is obviously a big name.

it can definitely be a competitive rivalry, I just don't think it will ever rise to the level where both schools think of the other as their true rival. We had this with Georgetown, Duke does with UNC. But yes, you are correct that it can be a must-see matchup

 

[OrangeDW]

it can definitely be a competitive rivalry, I just don't think it will ever rise to the level where both schools think of the other as their true rival. We had this with Georgetown, Duke does with UNC. But yes, you are correct that it can be a must-see matchup

No question, Duke-UNC means we will never be more than a secondary rival with either. And that's fine. I'm loving the Duke-SU series so far. Gonna love the UNC one more when we start getting wins again, they just outmanned us last year.

Cuse-Louisville certainly has potential. We've had some good games with them, we've played them for a decade now, and the programs have similar stature. We play them for an ACC title a couple times in small timespan and it could take off.

 

[jncuse]

No one HAS to do anything. Syracuse sold out for the football cash and you know what will happen, your football program will continue to be bad as they can't compete in the ACC and unfortunately your basketball program will go the way of Boston College. You won't get the recruits from the Northeast like you once did. It won't happen overnight but it will happen. Soon Syracuse will be a middling ACC program looking up to the powers in the conference that you can't compete with and you'll think back to a better era.

Just one impartial opinion.

:rolling:

 

[Hoyaholic]

:rolling:

Please forgive us; Eagle got out of his restraints. He's kind of our dumb second-cousin. We'll try to keep him quiet. Thanks. - HoyaSaxa

 

[tipphill]

i lost all hatred for gtown when john thompson senior left. did not have the same interest for me.
i wish we would add st johns, and seton hall to our list of annual ooc games

 

[tipphill]

We may continue to play GU forever once a year.

It's a straight-out, transparent money-grab for both schools leveraging the nostalgia and the residual dislike of the other school by the fan base (to the extent that Georgetown actually has a fan base.)

But I think that after the nostalgia wears off and the reality sets in that the fans will recognize that these games are inherently disappointing. They are, after all, about nothing. That is, other than an interesting OOC game for both schools.

It was the Big East title race that gave these games meaning. And the personalities and the history that gave them "heat".

There is no longer a mutual title chase. And the benign JT III is a shadow of the malevolent, Darth Vader-like JT Jr.

The last time I was in Philadelphia with a friend, I made it a point to stop at Pat's Steak House to savor a real Philly Cheesesteak. I'm sure I built the thing up to my pal as a once in a lifetime event for him.

The cheesesteak "wit" wasn't nearly as good as I remembered. It was OK, but it wasn't as good as I remembered. That's what the SU vs. GU games will be. Potentially good, but not he same.

abners just off the upenn campus has the best cheese steaks in phila. pats is a "tourist" place. went to abners for years while my daughter was at upenn.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Do you have proof?

We could dig it up. They were Cooney before Cooney.

 

[Col. Bleep]

I agree that Duke isn't a true rival. Every team gets up for that game. But I disagree with you on another point. I think what was special about this rivalry is that it wasn't geography based. Unlike Duke/UNC, we aren't just down the road. It's based much more on history, primarily Thompson's Manley remark.

True, no doubt...that game was the launching pad.
Thompson's big mouth got things going...although the rivalry may well have "blossomed" anyway given that it was the last game at Manley and he is such an easy character to despise.

For some reason the ACC has given us BC as our primary designated "partner" (which I guess is a polite word for "rival").
We barely cared about them when they were in the Big East.

That's another good reason to keep our old enemies on the schedule every year.
G-town & UConn for sure...and maybe SJU & Nova as well.
Keep hate alive!
A program can't really be great without an arch rival.

 

[RandygoCuse]

No question, Duke-UNC means we will never be more than a secondary rival with either. And that's fine. I'm loving the Duke-SU series so far. Gonna love the UNC one more when we start getting wins again, they just outmanned us last year.

Cuse-Louisville certainly has potential. We've had some good games with them, we've played them for a decade now, and the programs have similar stature. We play them for an ACC title a couple times in small timespan and it could take off.

Plus with Louisville you got the Boeheim/Pitino matchup - although not much longer.