JB and the Bench

[CuseFaninVT]

You have to trust someone.

Someone knows what they are talking about and others do not.

I'll stick with JB on this one. He's there. He's been doing this for 40+ years. And, most importantly, he wants to win more than anyone.

I should have written that one for you, because I knew exactly what you were going to say. The winning more than anyone was a slight twist on your familiar themes, but otherwise, you checked all the boxes you needed to based on my assumptions.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I'd argue our zone defense is actually more physically taxing than playing some man to man defenses. We ask each of our players to cover a far greater portion of the court than anyone ever has to playing man. Our forwards have to cover from the opposite side of the paint, out to the corner, and up to the foul line extended plus some more. That's a lot of territory to cover, which gets amplified when you consider the speeds they must attain to get out on shooters, etc. This ain't our father's zone defense and that just playing zone doesn't take as much energy is really a weak excuse.

I don't know man, playing man to man defense has always taken more energy to me, I know I know this isn't tavern league ( which I am playing lazy man and zone in both) but I just don't agree here

 

[longislandcuse]

So let's say we make the tournament. Ideal scenario where our guys are the exception to the rule and never get dinged up and can run marathons every day... We start winning close games so that argument is taken away from fans like me...

Even in a tourney setting where you can make the argument that a tightened rotation is fine given the extreme commercial breaks.. we still haven't developed anyone if Battle or Howard get a couple quick fouls.

You can't roll with 2 guards. It's insane that I even need to say this. Coaches recruited HW. Coaches brought in Thorpe who spazzed out. Coaches missed on recruits that could've helped us. It's on them to develop HW to the point where he can at least stand on the court and be a body for a few minutes per game. ...because, again, it's insane that we only play 2 guards.

 

[patcuse]

We're talking about how much they play in relation to their competition, not quibbling over how much of that two-hour period they spend playing basketball.

By that comparison, Syracuse players play too much and could use a rest.

Last time I checked it was the team that scored the most points won not the team that played the most players.

So are you saying we should out smart the competition and play 15 players.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I don't know man, playing man to man defense has always taken more energy to me, I know I know this isn't tavern league but I just don't agree here

I play 3 times a week still. As a 49-year old guy (just shy, but the legs tell me otherwise), I'd rather play man. Even if I'm covering 20 something year olds which I frequently do.

 

[OttoMets]

So it's about relative tiredness?

Only the amount of time they are in the game matters?

Somehow players who play 34 minutes are more effective than than those that play 40 minutes regardless of what they are doing (Press vs. M2M vs Zone versus fast-breaking vs walking the ball up court on offense).

After reading these statements on here, I decided to do some reading on the subject. What I found was that it is a very complicated subject with a lot of differing opinions among the researchers and experts who study "fatigue" and "recovery rates" and blood oxygen content and acids produced during exercise and even more stuff.

I don't know if how tired these guys are. But neither do you and it's highly possible that three of four minutes more of playing doesn't mean shxt.

Townie, you're out of your depth. Even if you weren't disingenuously looking for Boeheim slights rather than trying to have an honest conversation about rest and Syracuse's odd deviation from the norm (and nobody here thinks that that's the case), it's difficult to have a sports physiology conversation with someone who's got to pause to look up VO2 Max on Wikipedia.

Also, that you would cite a Boeheim quote (I've never heard this one) that playing zone for Syracuse requires less energy than man is an absolute head-scratcher. Who could believe that?

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Last time I checked it was the team that scored the most points won not the team that played the most players.

So are you saying we should out smart the competition and play 15 players.

That's exactly what he's saying.

I think you can go back to trying to fit the blocks back inside the cube now.

 

[OttoMets]

Last time I checked it was the team that scored the most points won not the team that played the most players.

So are you saying we should out smart the competition and play 15 players.

Go away, strawman.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I play 3 times a week still. As a 49-year old guy (just shy, but the legs tell me otherwise), I'd rather play man. Even if I'm covering 20 something year olds which I frequently do.

Nice!!! I love the fact you are still picking up kids half your age from baseline to baseline.. I really do! Kudos. I just think man takes way more effort but agree to disagree not a big deal

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Nice!!! I love the fact you are still picking up kids half your age from baseline to baseline.. I really do! Kudos. I just think man takes way more effort but agree to disagree not a big deal

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I never said anything about baseline to baseline. I pick up at half court just like my coach taught me on the freshman squad.

 

[Townie72]

In my opinion, mental fatigue is likely larger than the physical part, although you can clearly correlate the two. We all don't play the game of hoops at this level, but a lot of us has played sports in some capacity. And, when you get physically tired, to a degree it certainly bleeds into your mental state of mind.

Comparing yourself to these guys is a mistake.

I saw a detailed film once of the actions of the heart of a Maryland basketball player pumping. It was incredible how efficient it was versus the average persons. These guys are playing with a different deck. Unless you were as well-conditioned as these guys, your experience doen't shed a lot of light on the subject.

 

[OttoMets]

I'd argue our zone defense is actually more physically taxing than playing some man to man defenses. We ask each of our players to cover a far greater portion of the court than anyone ever has to playing man. Our forwards have to cover from the opposite side of the paint, out to the corner, and up to the foul line extended plus some more. That's a lot of territory to cover, which gets amplified when you consider the speeds they must attain to get out on shooters, etc. This ain't our father's zone defense and that just playing zone doesn't take as much energy is really a weak excuse.

It's insane, and it flies in the face of everything the coaches and Bilas-types have been saying for the last ten years about Syracuse's zone. If Boeheim really said that zone requires less energy (I missed that one), it contradicts his earlier statements and is just another throwaway "Boeheim says things" line designed to deflect from not wanting to explain to those unwashed media dolts why he prefers a short bench.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Nice!!! I love the fact you are still picking up kids half your age from baseline to baseline.. I really do! Kudos. I just think man takes way more effort but agree to disagree not a big deal

But, I will say that covering a guy who runs the court like the Coon dog used to would likely be more difficult than playing the top of the zone, even our zone.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Comparing yourself to these guys is a mistake.

I saw a detailed film once of the actions of the heart of a Maryland basketball player pumping. It was incredible how efficient it was versus the average persons. These guys are playing with a different deck. Unless you were as well-conditioned as these guys, your experience doen't shed a lot of light on the subject.

But we aren't really comparing ourselves to these guys. We are comparing them to other teams filled with kids with similarly efficient hearts. And when we make that comparison, and look at the stats of most minutes played, it's pretty clear that JB is an outlier with regard to P5 teams.

 

[IthacaMatt]

So let's say we make the tournament. Ideal scenario where our guys are the exception to the rule and never get dinged up and can run marathons every day... We start winning close games so that argument is taken away from fans like me...

Even in a tourney setting where you can make the argument that a tightened rotation is fine given the extreme commercial breaks.. we still haven't developed anyone if Battle or Howard get a couple quick fouls.

You can't roll with 2 guards. It's insane that I even need to say this. Coaches recruited HW. Coaches brought in Thorpe who spazzed out. Coaches missed on recruits that could've helped us. It's on them to develop HW to the point where he can at least stand on the court and be a body for a few minutes per game. ...because, again, it's insane that we only play 2 guards.

Even if they NEVER get tired, foul trouble happens.
You can't have the few players on your bench unprepared to contribute.

 

[Dinkyspond]

I get the train of thought but changing the though process of a man into his seventies isn't a venture I would be willing to say will have a positive outcome. The last few years I don't think he has had much option but even when he has had depth JB will play the 6-7 kids.

On the flip side, I get rest seems to be the trend in the NBA, etc but this isn't the NBA and these guys are all 19-21, big difference in 10 years

Let them play!

Plus they play 82 games across 4 time zones, back to back games. In college, they play twice a week although the Saturday to Monday turnaround is tough.

 

[SoBristol]

But we aren't really comparing ourselves to these guys. We are comparing them to other teams filled with kids with similarly efficient hearts. And when we make that comparison, and look at the stats of most minutes played, it's pretty clear that JB is an outlier with regard to P5 teams.

Except for BC, which also played its two best players for 40 minutes.

If JB had a third guard roughly on par with his starters, he would take a different approach (as when he had Scoop off the bench, or Dion off the bench). If he had multiple options at forward, or center (as he has had in some years), he would rotate more. He doesn't have that luxury, so he is riding his top 3 to make this team competitive.

 

[Townie72]

I should have written that one for you, because I knew exactly what you were going to say. The winning more than anyone was a slight twist on your familiar themes, but otherwise, you checked all the boxes you needed to based on my assumptions.

My replies don't change because the points attempting to be made don't change.

It's the same criticisms over and over.

Show some creativity and you might get a different response.

 

[longislandcuse]

Except for BC, which also played its two best players for 40 minutes.

If JB had a third guard roughly on par with his starters, he would take a different approach (as when he had Scoop off the bench, or Dion off the bench). If he had multiple options at forward, or center (as he has had in some years), he would rotate more. He doesn't have that luxury, so he is riding his top 3 to make this team competitive.

We all know why he's doing it. We just disagree that it's effective. I don't think anybody wants HW out there for double digit minutes per game, but if he can give us 6-8 minutes per so OB/TB/FH can go from 40 per to 36 per, that makes a difference.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Except for BC, which also played its two best players for 40 minutes.

If JB had a third guard roughly on par with his starters, he would take a different approach (as when he had Scoop off the bench, or Dion off the bench). If he had multiple options at forward, or center (as he has had in some years), he would rotate more. He doesn't have that luxury, so he is riding his top 3 to make this team competitive.

Why does HW has to be "on par" with the starters in order to use him? Why does everyone assume a sub needs to play more than just a couple minutes in order to get obviously tired players out of the game? Seriously, you guys are familiar with this game, right?

And BC kind of sucks. We really don't want to be making comparisons of our team and theirs. I thought SU hoops was one of the blue bloods or just below that tier...

 

[CuseFaninVT]

My replies don't change because the points attempting to be made don't change.

It's the same criticisms over and over.

Show some creativity and you might get a different response.

you first.

 

[longislandcuse]

Why does HW has to be "on par" with the starters in order to use him? Why does everyone assume a sub needs to play more than just a couple minutes in order to get obviously tired players out of the game? Seriously, you guys are familiar with this game, right?

And BC kind of sucks. We really don't want to be making comparisons of our team and theirs. I thought SU hoops was one of the blue bloods or just below that tier...

We were up double digits all game. Up 16 with 2 minutes left. I really don't understand how there is pushback haha.

 

[cuseincincy]

Let's assume that you are correct and we NEED to address the bench. What exactly is it that you would like JB to do with this roster? He can't:

• Make Sidibe healthy, that would help.
• Burn Hughes's red shirt year.
• Make Howard Washington suddenly better.

We were a 7+ man team with 2 guys hurt. My personal opinion is that Washington could get 5-10 minutes per game. But in my experience as a player it wasn't the end of the game where I got tired. It was the 2nd part of the 1st half where I started dragging. Once I hit my "second wind" I could play forever. And I was nowhere near the athlete or as conditioned as these guys are. JB likely thinks a tired 70% Frank or Tyus is still better than a fresh Wash. My guess he's right. We only have 8 guys available, 5 of which are freshman. Just don't have the bodies.

 

[longislandcuse]

Let's assume that you are correct and we NEED to address the bench. What exactly is it that you would like JB to do with this roster? He can't:

• Make Sidibe healthy, that would help.
• Burn Hughes's red shirt year.
• Make Howard Washington suddenly better.

We were a 7+ man team with 2 guys hurt. My personal opinion is that Washington could get 5-10 minutes per game. But in my experience as a player it wasn't the end of the game where I got tired. It was the 2nd part of the 1st half where I started dragging. Once I hit my "second wind" I could play forever. And I was nowhere near the athlete or as conditioned as these guys are. JB likely thinks a tired 70% Frank or Tyus is still better than a fresh Wash. My guess he's right. We only have 8 guys available, 5 of which are freshman. Just don't have the bodies.

Would you rather have 70% Frank and Tyus to finish games or 85% Frank and Tyus to finish games? Frank and Tyus are a really good backcourt duo but closing out games requires energy and if they're running on 60-70% tanks, that effects closeouts, hands up, getting in passing lanes, first step past your man, legs for shooting, rebounding and mental focus.

I'd make a conscious effort to get everyone to 36-37 per. HW can stand in the corner for 5-6 minutes per game and we can figure out some way to score off offensive rebounds for the 3-4 minutes per game OB sits and we have Dolezaj and Moyer at the 3/4 or, again, HW standing in the corner.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Let's assume that you are correct and we NEED to address the bench. What exactly is it that you would like JB to do with this roster? He can't:

• Make Sidibe healthy, that would help.
• Burn Hughes's red shirt year.
• Make Howard Washington suddenly better.

We were a 7+ man team with 2 guys hurt. My personal opinion is that Washington could get 5-10 minutes per game. But in my experience as a player it wasn't the end of the game where I got tired. It was the 2nd part of the 1st half where I started dragging. Once I hit my "second wind" I could play forever. And I was nowhere near the athlete or as conditioned as these guys are. JB likely thinks a tired 70% Frank or Tyus is still better than a fresh Wash. My guess he's right. We only have 8 guys available, 5 of which are freshman. Just don't have the bodies.

Your first two bullets are completely fair and there really is nothing we can do. Other than recruit better, but that doesn't help this year.

But I'm calling BS on the 3rd bullet. HW is more than adequate enough to use for more than 2 minutes where we are in control for nearly the whole game.

And you know what makes players better? PLAYING!!! Argghhh...

 

[Townie72]

you first.

Since I am responding, that's kind of hard to do.

But maybe I do need to try something different. Logic doesn't seem to be working as well as one might think or wish.