JB and the Bench

[SBU72]

JB will never trade a win for a loss for the sake of development or rest. He would much rather play his best guys at 80% than most bench guys at 100%. Yeah 16 pts may seem a lot but SU has given up bigger leads and over came them that JB wiil not take the chance. He has also said he won't put his non-scholarship guys in until the opposing coach does.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Since I am responding, that's kind of hard to do.

But maybe I do need to try something different. Logic doesn't seem to be working as well as one might think or wish.

Your logic is equating to mostly unsuccessful finishes to seasons. The miracle recent FF notwithstanding, calling us an average team would be generous.

I think maybe we should mix things up a bit, but expecting old guys like JB (and you apparently) is asking too much.

 

[longislandcuse]

He has also said he won't put his non-scholarship guys in until the opposing coach does.

This is idiotic. I respectfully disagree with JB on his use of the bench and "zone all the time" but, this, I don't respectfully disagree - I disrespectfully think it's ridiculous.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

JB will never trade a win for a loss for the sake of development or rest. He would much rather play his best guys at 80% than most bench guys at 100%. Yeah 16 pts may seem a lot but SU has given up bigger leads and over came them that JB wiil not take the chance. He has also said he won't put his non-scholarship guys in until the opposing coach does.

That's exactly right. I'm quite certain JB actually believes that playing HW for 2 minutes in each half will likely result in a loss. And I'm not being sarcastic, thus no need for the font.

I don't believe he's correct. But he's the coach and I'm just a loser on the interwebs (props to Townie!).

 

[orangecuse]

So let's say we make the tournament. Ideal scenario where our guys are the exception to the rule and never get dinged up and can run marathons every day... We start winning close games so that argument is taken away from fans like me...

Even in a tourney setting where you can make the argument that a tightened rotation is fine given the extreme commercial breaks.. we still haven't developed anyone if Battle or Howard get a couple quick fouls.

You can't roll with 2 guards. It's insane that I even need to say this. Coaches recruited HW. Coaches brought in Thorpe who spazzed out. Coaches missed on recruits that could've helped us. It's on them to develop HW to the point where he can at least stand on the court and be a body for a few minutes per game. ...because, again, it's insane that we only play 2 guards.

No worries tat tal mun! In the Dance, timeouts are 2:30 vs. 2:00 and halftime is 22:00 vs. 15:00. So, these dudes have nuttin to worry about.

 

[orangecuse]

Comparing yourself to these guys is a mistake.

I saw a detailed film once of the actions of the heart of a Maryland basketball player pumping. It was incredible how efficient it was versus the average persons. These guys are playing with a different deck. Unless you were as well-conditioned as these guys, your experience doen't shed a lot of light on the subject.

You missed the larger scope. The fact is, whether one is well-conditioned vs. not so much, we are all human, not Cyborg's. Therefore, no matter what the degree of conditioned prowess one may have, mental fatigue is relative to that environment. So, that Maryland player is likely on the same or similar plane as the opponents in which he is facing/playing. Since it's a level playing field in that regard, mental fatigue will be a factor to some degree, it's inevitable.

 

[Townie72]

Your logic is equating to mostly unsuccessful finishes to seasons. The miracle recent FF notwithstanding, calling us an average team would be generous.

I think maybe we should mix things up a bit, but expecting old guys like JB (and you apparently) is asking too much.

That sounds like you are saying, "Mix things up. What we are doing isn't working. Anything different would be better than this!"

It's more impatience and pique than it is logic.

You have to have something to change to and you have to have confidence that this will actually work. There's a huge downside to screwing it up and more than it already is.

Because it you think things can't get worse for SU BB, than think again. As Crouthamel pointed out talking about football when Pasqualoni was on the ropes, "These programs are fragile. It's hard to build them and easy to wreck them."

Jake's words were almost prophetic.

There's a saying among coaches, "If you listen to the fans, you'll soon be sitting with them."

 

[RF2044]

Your first two bullets are completely fair and there really is nothing we can do. Other than recruit better, but that doesn't help this year.

But I'm calling BS on the 3rd bullet. HW is more than adequate enough to use for more than 2 minutes where we are in control for nearly the whole game.

And you know what makes players better? PLAYING!!! Argghhh...

I'm with you -- and that has been one of the issues I've had for many, many years about how JB uses the bench. There is no reason not to use a player like HW for two minutes of game time per half. Because if you substitute him at the right time, that two minutes of bench time can overlap with commercials, giving a guy like Frank or Tyus 5-7 minutes of real-time rest -- which can make a big difference in terms of in-game fatigue down the stretch.

It doesn't have to be long stints [unless the player performs will, in which case -- leave him in]. Even just quick bursts like that to give our backcourt a blow [or alternatively, to shift Battle to 3 which could in turn provide one of our suddenly depleted forward rotation with a quick rest] could have a big impact on helping players have fresh legs at the end of games.

 

[Forloveoforange]

I'm surprised there's pushback, too. I think this tiredness thing is real, and it will happen again. These kids are new to this grind, too. There has not been the 10 year training effect that NBA 30 year olds would have. People who think 30 year old's are over the hill don't know 30, 40 or 50 year olds.

JB's wins in the moment will cause losses down the road. He's hungry for the win at hand. I suppose he's afraid to get cute and plan for the future, and lose a game because of it.

We get in slumps, and JB blames it on confidence, but its also energy, or so it seems. As far as who doesn't believe this stuff, I think its the out of shape potato that thinks these kids are amazing. But geez, it seems like you can see the difference in energy, no? Its a shallow team, but is it this shallow?

I'd rather have 85% Frank and Tyus. We're all human. We're all science projects.

 

[Townie72]

You missed the larger scope. The fact is, whether one is well-conditioned vs. no so much, we are all human, not Cyborg's. So, no matter what the degree of conditioned prowess one may have, mental fatigue is relative to that factor. So, this Maryland player is likely on the same or similar plane as the opponents in which he is facing/playing. Since it's a level playing field in that regard, mental fatigue will be a factor to some degree, it's inevitable.

Are you aware of the concept of "Just Noticeable Difference"?

Two things can be different. One might be numerically higher or lower.

But that frequently doesn't make a difference that's noticeable or important.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

That sounds like you are saying, "Mix things up. What we are doing isn't working. Anything different would be better than this!"

It's more impatience and pique than it is logic.

You have to have something to change to and you have to have confidence that this will actually work. There's a huge downside to screwing it up and more than it already is.

Because it you think things can't get worse for SU BB, than think again. As Crouthamel pointed out talking about football when Pasqualoni was on the ropes, "These programs are fragile. It's hard to build them and easy to wreck them."

Jake's words were almost prophetic.

There's a saying among coaches, "If you listen to the fans, you'll soon be sitting with them."

So many words. None of them really relate to what I said.

What we are doing is working well enough to be a fair to middling program. I want us to be get back to what SU hoops used to be.

We aren't going to agree. But if you feel the need to have the last word (and I'm guessing you do), have at it.

 

[81South]

Every year we have this discussion. Coach rides his horses hard. This isn’t going to change.

To each his own but it is strange that after a nice win we can still find something to get us in an uproar.

 

[RF2044]

I'm surprised there's pushback, too. I think this tiredness thing is real, and it will happen again. These kids are new to this grind, too. There has not been the 10 year training effect that NBA 30 year olds would have. People who think 30 year old's are over the hill don't know 30, 40 or 50 year olds.

JB's wins in the moment will cause losses down the road. He's hungry for the win at hand. I suppose he's afraid to get cute and plan for the future, and lose a game because of it.

We get in slumps, and JB blames it on confidence, but its also energy, or so it seems. As far as who doesn't believe this stuff, I think its the out of shape potato that thinks these kids are amazing. But geez, it seems like you can see the difference in energy, no? Its a shallow team, but is it this shallow?

I'd rather have 85% Frank and Tyus. We're all human. We're all science projects.

Agreed. I also think that JB correctly identified the trend years ago about the vast number of timeouts / commercials that happens at the end of games, and factored that into how he manages the rotation. Guys might be gassed at the 7 minute mark, but after that the clock seems to stop a million times, which affords at least a modicum of "rest."

 

[orangecuse]

Are you aware of the concept of "Just Noticeable Difference"?

Two things can be different. One might be numerically higher or lower.

But that frequently doesn't make a difference that's noticeable or important.

This isn't experimental psychology, and it's no way as complicated/sophisticated. This is simply about how a physical state of muscle memory, fatigue, etc. has a correlation to mental fatigue to some capacity.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Anyone remember that Louisville walk-on last year who dropped 7 on us in their OT win? that was cool.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

I'd argue our zone defense is actually more physically taxing than playing some man to man defenses. We ask each of our players to cover a far greater portion of the court than anyone ever has to playing man. Our forwards have to cover from the opposite side of the paint, out to the corner, and up to the foul line extended plus some more. That's a lot of territory to cover, which gets amplified when you consider the speeds they must attain to get out on shooters, etc. This ain't our father's zone defense and that just playing zone doesn't take as much energy is really a weak excuse.

At minimum, it's more taxing than the defense any of our opponents are playing against our ISO offense.

JB is going to do what he does. But i dont know how anyone can dispute that rest is useful, or that not playing reduces the risk of injury.

 

[RF2044]

At minimum, it's more taxing than the defense any of our opponents are playing against our ISO offense.

JB is going to do what he does. But i dont know how anyone can dispute that rest is useful, or that not playing reduces the risk of injury.

Agreed. Your last sentence sums it up perfectly -- it isn't "complaining" to point that out.

 

[Townie72]

So many words. None of them really relate to what I said.

What we are doing is working well enough to be a fair to middling program. I want us to be get back to what SU hoops used to be.

We aren't going to agree. But if you feel the need to have the last word (and I'm guessing you do), have at it.

Ok. I actually see why we are never going to agree. We are coming at this from two different perspectives.

When SU is not as good as we used to be or when he program was at its best, you are unhappy. (I'll skip the part about the validity of the suggestions being made about how to fix the "problem")

Putting words in your mouth, you seem to believe that there is some combination of things we could or should be doing to get back to SU's best days.

I see a different world. A world that has changed and that continues to change.

There are more credible competitors than there have ever been. There seems to be more real parity than ever.

We are in a better conference than we have ever been in top-to-bottom.

There are good players everywhere. The days of SU having a better bunch of athletes than most of the competition are over. I was watching the UK v. Miss. State game the other night and remember thinking, "Mississippi State has some really good big guys".

It's possible that we are a mid-level ACC and NCAA "Bubble" team for a long time. But it won't be for the "lack of trying". I guess that will affect the enthusiasm of some SU fans.

We used to be a dominant team in lacrosse. We would get a bunch of guys from West Genny HS and a few from the "hot beds" in NY and win mot games. Those days are over because now there are good players all over and there are more credible programs. Just like in College basketball.

 

[OttoMets]

At minimum, it's more taxing than the defense any of our opponents are playing against our ISO offense.

JB is going to do what he does. But i dont know how anyone can dispute that rest is useful, or that not playing reduces the risk of injury.

Things like "rest is useful" and "if you're on the bench, you have a 0% chance of getting injured; if you're on the court getting fouled on a fast break, your chance of getting injured is greater than 0%" are, by definition, indisputable.

Except apparently on this board, because Hall of Fame something something Jim Boeheim.

 

[Townie72]

This isn't experimental psychology, and it's no way as complicated/sophisticated. This is simply about how a physical state of muscle memory, fatigue, etc. has a correlation to mental fatigue to some capacity.

Yup.

Could you draw that curve for us that shows that relationship for these guys?

It would tell us the point at which it becomes a problem.

 

[Townie72]

Things like "rest is useful" and "if you're on the bench, you have a 0% chance of getting injured; if you're on the court getting fouled on a fast break, your chance of getting injured is greater than 0%" are, by definition, indisputable.

Except apparently on this board, because Hall of Fame something something Jim Boeheim.

So your plan is not to play guys because they might get hurt?

 

[SoBristol]

Why does HW has to be "on par" with the starters in order to use him? Why does everyone assume a sub needs to play more than just a couple minutes in order to get obviously tired players out of the game? Seriously, you guys are familiar with this game, right?

And BC kind of sucks. We really don't want to be making comparisons of our team and theirs. I thought SU hoops was one of the blue bloods or just below that tier...

We often are blue bloods -- not this season, when our ACC record puts us in a bracket with BC. Being realistic, we have a similar issue to BC -- the scoring comes from a trio of players, and there is a big drop-off from those 3 starters to the bench. BC usually sucks, but they get a few wins because it has a trio of scores who happen to play 35 - 40 minutes every time out.

Obviously, JB could play Washington a few minutes each half, let Battle or Howard each sit 2 minutes a half and play 36 minutes, not 40. He won't do that when the game is close, or if he thinks Battle & Howard are getting rest via the pace of the game, or TV timeouts. You are familiar with JB, right?

 

[longislandcuse]

Ok. I actually see why we are never going to agree. We are coming at this from two different perspectives.

When SU is not as good as we used to be or when he program was at its best, you are unhappy. (I'll skip the part about the validity of the suggestions being made about how to fix the "problem")

Putting words in your mouth, you seem to believe that there is some combination of things we could or should be doing to get back to SU's best days.

I see a different world. A world that has changed and that continues to change.

There are more credible competitors than there have ever been. There seems to be more real parity than ever.

We are in a better conference than we have ever been in top-to-bottom.

There are good players everywhere. The days of SU having a better bunch of athletes than most of the competition are over. I was watching the UK v. Miss. State game the other night and remember thinking, "Mississippi State has some really good big guys".

It's possible that we are a mid-level ACC and NCAA "Bubble" team for a long time. But it won't be for the "lack of trying". I guess that will affect the enthusiasm of some SU fans.

We used to be a dominant team in lacrosse. We would get a bunch of guys from West Genny HS and a few from the "hot beds" in NY and win mot games. Those days are over because now there are good players all over and there are more credible programs. Just like in College basketball.

If you want to throw that argument at me on the football board, ok fine. Not here on the basketball board. We have recruiting pipelines, good players nearby, a brand name program, an iconic Dome that seats 30k plus and some of the best facilities in CBB.

If we hit a little bit better on recruits, we would've been a consistent top 25 program, even with the sanctions. It isn't due to lack of interest.. we've made some bad decisions on the recruiting trail and coupled with sanctions, its hurt us lately.

Props to JB for the recent Final 4's but it's ok to have discussion about this stuff.

Now we're coming out of it, a nice recruiting class lined up and there is zero reason Syracuse Basketball should ever be a consistently mediocre ACC Basketball program. This is not CFB with the power shift to the Southeast and an impossible to compete with arms race.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Except for BC, which also played its two best players for 40 minutes.

If JB had a third guard roughly on par with his starters, he would take a different approach (as when he had Scoop off the bench, or Dion off the bench). If he had multiple options at forward, or center (as he has had in some years), he would rotate more. He doesn't have that luxury, so he is riding his top 3 to make this team competitive.

Well, maybe if he played Thorpe more than 5 minutes a game during the non-conference schedule so we had a true 3 guard rotation, he wouldn't have transferred, and we wouldn't be relying on a little kid (Washington) who has played about 30 minutes all season.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Last time I checked it was the team that scored the most points won not the team that played the most players.

So are you saying we should out smart the competition and play 15 players.

Funny, but Rick Pitino, the guy Boeheim just called maybe the best college coach ever, doesn't do it that way. Of course he presses all game long, too.