JB Coaching Not To Lose...

[newmexicuse]

I conclude this after reading other threads & combining with my own thoughts.

If was coaching to win rather than not to lose why wouldn't he:

Give MCW a shot when Scoop isn't doing much ??
Do something to up the tempo against teams trying to slow us down - press more, trap more, extend, etc. ??? I won't dare mention the three letter word.
Play our only hot player at crunch time - James was on the bench at the end ??
Get Brandon more minutes when Dion wasn't doing much in the 2nd half ??
Tell Kris he can't take a three until he at least makes a two ?
Tell CJ he can't take a J until he gets a hoop in the paint ??
Tell Dion to go hellbent for the hoop ??

We won't get very far playing scared. I didn't see a scared team during the first 20 games of the season.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

He's always done this. Doesn't take ANY risks during the postseason. Short bench. Bad rotations. No press unless he's trailing by more than 10. Runs bad offensive sets and gets content with playing a slow grind it out game. He's coaches the complete opposite way in March compared to November. He's too stubborn to even realize it.

I think we are only going to deal with it for a very short time more, because I think he's going to fill out his application for Social Security payments by April.

 

[newmexicuse]

He's always done this. Doesn't take ANY risks during the postseason. Short bench. Bad rotations. No press unless he's trailing by more than 10. Runs bad offensive sets and gets content with playing a slow grind it out game. He's coaches the complete opposite way in March compared to November. He's too stubborn to even realize it.

I think we are only going to deal with it for a very short time more, because I think he's going to fill out his application for Social Security payments by April.

Absolutely agree - I think with this team in view of the regular seaosn record that he is especially cautious. He's got Fab as an excuse to not go all the way. Maybe, he thinks one or two more squeaky wins matter.

I say the opposite - cut it loose, let em play the way we did early, & let the chips fall where they may. If we can't get to a FF, it really doesn't matter if we win two games as compared to one. Go for broke. If one guy isn't playing well get another guy on the court - play pressure ball - see if we can't get a few of those 20 to zip runs going.

 

[dasher]

It's nonsense to say that jb is playing not to lose because he plays a sr who has played for 4 years over a kid (MCW) who he didn't trust in regular season games. Without Melo, we just aren't that good.

 

[newmexicuse]

It's nonsense to say that jb is playing not to lose because he plays a sr who has played for 4 years over a kid (MCW) who he didn't trust in regular season games. Without Melo, we just aren't that good.

Nobody is saying to play MCW over Scoop at crunch-time. we are just talking about getting the kid a mid-game run when things aren't going well. Jimmy does the opposite. He will only give MCW a run when things are going well & we are ahead. What's the point of that ?? Don't you want to get players ready for when you really need them & then use them to pickup the team ???

 

[dasher]

We play 3 guards. That is enough. I think MCW will be a good player for us. But we win or lose with our vet players right now.

 

[cap2nine]

It's nonsense to say that jb is playing not to lose because he plays a sr who has played for 4 years over a kid (MCW) who he didn't trust in regular season games. Without Melo, we just aren't that good.

That's a bunch of crap. JB subbed in and out every other possible combination of players looking for the right combo and the hot hand but never broke from his stubborn style or slipped MCW into the rotation. He quite simply is unwilling to take a risk, even at the cost of nearly taking a historic loss.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

It's nonsense to say that jb is playing not to lose because he plays a sr who has played for 4 years over a kid (MCW) who he didn't trust in regular season games. Without Melo, we just aren't that good.

Ummm??? We have roughly 30 years of data on JB's coaches habits in the NCAAs compared to November. This has little to nothing to do with Melo. He's the complete opposite coach when there is a circular decal stuck to the court with the words "NCAA" on it.

 

[RF2044]

We play 3 guards. That is enough. I think MCW will be a good player for us. But we win or lose with our vet players right now.

Agreed. Now, it would be NICE if our vet players stepped up and performed well.

If they did, nobody would be complaining about MCW not playing. But tough to fault JB for going with proven hands.

 

[moqui]

Nonsense. JB had the perfect game plan today. Syracuse struggles to score in the half court, that (and not the defensive rebounding) has been the problem all year long. Despite the deficiency, if you are up against one of the fastest paced and highest scoring offenses in the country, the right thing to do is to slow it down. Take away their strengths and count on your superior players to make more plays than the other guys can.

I posted this elsewhere, but I will cut and paste it here:

UNCA is one of the best shooting teams in the nation. They came into the game averaging 52.9% on their two point shots, sixth best in the country. That is their main strength. Their other strength is drawing fouls - they free throws attempted/field goals attempted ratio was .485, third in the nation, and then they connect at over 77% from the line. Baiting them into taking almost half of their shots from three point land, robbing them of the their two strongest points, was the right strategy. Good on them for hitting enough of them to keep it close, but it was ultimately their undoing anyway.

SU won this game because of the coaching scheme. JB coached to win this one, and he did.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

I'm glad you could find some theoretical excuse for today's game plan.

It doesn't explain the Vermont, Richmond, Rhode Island, Navy and a few other big fat stinkers he's laid in the tourney over the years.

I went back and analyzed it a few months ago, but JB's biggest post season problem isn't actually getting upset, it's his lack of ability to actually pull an upset. I think he's only done it 3 or 4 times, most coming in 2003 (3 times).

 

[mikekan14]

I don't think I've ever seen Boeheim make any in-game adjustments. He doesn't react to the game situations like...pressing to pick up tempo, isolating Christmas in the post against tiny defenders (if for nothing else other than for him to gain confidence for future games against Henriquez, Ezeli, Sullinger, etc.), switching to man to improve rebounding, de-emphasizing 3's, etc.

Maybe when you've won almost 900 games, you get a little stubborn.

 

[sufandu]

Nonsense. JB had the perfect game plan today. Syracuse struggles to score in the half court, that (and not the defensive rebounding) has been the problem all year long. Despite the deficiency, if you are up against one of the fastest paced and highest scoring offenses in the country, the right thing to do is to slow it down. Take away their strengths and count on your superior players to make more plays than the other guys can.

I posted this elsewhere, but I will cut and paste it here:

UNCA is one of the best shooting teams in the nation. They came into the game averaging 52.9% on their two point shots, sixth best in the country. That is their main strength. Their other strength is drawing fouls - they free throws attempted/field goals attempted ratio was .485, third in the nation, and then they connect at over 77% from the line. Baiting them into taking almost half of their shots from three point land, robbing them of the their two strongest points, was the right strategy. Good on them for hitting enough of them to keep it close, but it was ultimately their undoing anyway.

SU won this game because of the coaching scheme. JB coached to win this one, and he did.

When your gameplan results in your far taller players jacking up threes instead dunking on the other team's heads all game it's faulty. A superior team doesn't change it's style to beat an inferior team by single digits. They play their game and run them out of the gym.

 

[thebigeast44]

JB can never win with some people. You think that would go away after he wins a championship and led his team to 32 wins this year. Unreal, simply unreal. In regards to some of our so called bad beats in the NCAA, go there often enough, you'll have some of those. Vermont sucked. But a couple of others mentioned above - Rhode Island - Sherman Douglas was sick with the flu - if he's healthy, we win that game imho. The Navy game - they had a player named David Robinson - an NBA hall of famer - did not look good at the time but you'd think looking back, losing to a team with an NBA hall of famer is nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[billsin01]

I don't think I've ever seen Boeheim make any in-game adjustments. He doesn't react to the game situations like...pressing to pick up tempo, isolating Christmas in the post against tiny defenders (if for nothing else other than for him to gain confidence for future games against Henriquez, Ezeli, Sullinger, etc.), switching to man to improve rebounding, de-emphasizing 3's, etc.

Maybe when you've won almost 900 games, you get a little stubborn.

I get frustrated at times with JB's stubbornness but this is a funny post. Anyone who watches this team and doesn't notice all the subtle adjustments made in the zone is simply not paying attention.

 

[pearl31]

I don't think I've ever seen Boeheim make any in-game adjustments.

:rolling:

 

[newmexicuse]

We play 3 guards. That is enough. I think MCW will be a good player for us. But we win or lose with our vet players right now.

We need to win or lose with our best players right now. If those players happen to be the veteran players - great. If one or more of our veteran players is in a slump or having a bad game, why keep riding a lame horse ????

 

[thebigeast44]

Because that lame horse might win the game for you in the 2nd half as Kjo and Scoop proved today - and did some of you not notice that JB went with the hot hand of Dirty instead of CJ who was having an off day? JB went with his experienced guys instead of throwing MCW in there - just as 90+% of good college coaches would have done.

 

[br801]

That's a bunch of crap. JB subbed in and out every other possible combination of players looking for the right combo and the hot hand but never broke from his stubborn style or slipped MCW into the rotation. He quite simply is unwilling to take a risk, even at the cost of nearly taking a historic loss.

Did it ever occur to you that putting MCW into a tight game in which we trailed almost from the start might have hastened that historic loss? Then you would be crying that JB had no business putting an inexperienced player that he had buried on the bench into an elimination game. Bottom line is this team is playing Saturday. All the hand wringing and whining about getting minutes for MCW is just noise.

 

[mikekan14]

JB can never win with some people. You think that would go away after he wins a championship and led his team to 32 wins this year. Unreal, simply unreal. In regards to some of our so called bad beats in the NCAA, go there often enough, you'll have some of those. Vermont sucked. But a couple of others mentioned above - Rhode Island - Sherman Douglas was sick with the flu - if he's healthy, we win that game imho. The Navy game - they had a player named David Robinson - an NBA hall of famer - did not look good at the time but you'd think looking back, losing to a team with an NBA hall of famer is nothing to be ashamed of.

This was in ESPN The Mag BEFORE Melo was declared ineligible

Syracuse has a history of underachieving in the postseason. Coach Jim Boeheim just doesn't see it that way. Ask him what it means to have reached "only" three Final Fours and to have won a single championship in 35 seasons and he responds curtly: "How many people have done better? How long is the list?"


Pretty long, as it turns out. Thirty-three D1 coaches have reached at least three Final Fours during their careers. Ben Howland did it in three straight seasons last decade. Tom Izzo has doubled that mark since 1999. Steve Fisher, Billy Donovan and John Calipari (with an asterisk) are all Boeheim's equals. Brad Stevens is just one trip behind him. By contrast, only two D1 men's coaches (Mike Krzyzewski and Bob Knight) have won more games than Boeheim, and they've combined for 16 Final Fours and seven national titles. There's clearly a disconnect.


But if, like Boeheim, you reject the premise that Syracuse has underachieved in March, chew on some PASE. The brainchild of Pete Tiernan, who runs BracketScience.com, Performance Against Seed Expectation measures teams against the typical production of a given seed. For his career, Boeheim has slightly exceeded expectations with a PASE of .132: Each tourney, he wins about an eighth of a game more than is typical for a team with the same seed. That number is reflective of his lengthy career. But if you take out Syracuse's run to the championship game as a No. 4 seed in 1996 and its national title as a No. 3 seed in 2003, Boeheim's PASE falls to an underachieving minus-.238. That's Rick Barnes territory, with just two trips to the Elite Eight and one Final Four since the tournament expanded to 64 teams in 1985.
Regardless of whether you erase those two seasons, Syracuse's recent history is alarming. Since riding Carmelo Anthony to the 2003 title, the school has yet to advance past the Sweet 16 and has a shockingly awful minus-.656 PASE, more than half a game below expectations per Dance.

 

[SyracuseFan]

JB can never win with some people. You think that would go away after he wins a championship and led his team to 32 wins this year. Unreal, simply unreal. In regards to some of our so called bad beats in the NCAA, go there often enough, you'll have some of those. Vermont sucked. But a couple of others mentioned above - Rhode Island - Sherman Douglas was sick with the flu - if he's healthy, we win that game imho. The Navy game - they had a player named David Robinson - an NBA hall of famer - did not look good at the time but you'd think looking back, losing to a team with an NBA hall of famer is nothing to be ashamed of.

No offense but you just don't get it, sorry just my opinion. JB will always have fans like you, loyal great fans who make up excuses as to why your team has under-performed in certain years. Kind of like, the busy white collar worker who hears a knocking coming from his engine, he is either too busy, too wealthy, not smart enough, or not inclined enough too open up that hood and find out where the knock is coming from. So he just takes it in to the same mechanic for 35 years. There is a certain gentleman's agreement and that this mechanic will have your entire Family's business because you think he's your friend. The truth is he's been ripping you off for 35 years because he never respected you in the first place.

At one time, I was a fanboy like you, in truth I was born into being an SU fanatic so I had no choice. In my house JB, was infallible 95% of the time. I figured I better get to know a bit more about the game of basketball and team of which I was born into fandom. I can be a lot of things but I will never be ignorant on any topic for which I speak. We are all wired differently so there is nothing wrong with your personality, the world does need its sheep.

I take SERIOUS offense to all of you JB loyalists who question every critic's devotion or fan-dom. Just because you are of the old school mentality who doesn't care what happens the rest of your life because Gerry, Melo and the boys brought us a title. This doesn't give you the right to judge other fans who have actually spent the time to learn the game and understand the facts. JB has helped to grow this brand of SU basketball but he is not Jesus. We can debate whether or not his management style led to a lack of control, it might be a short debate. The bottom line is he is an average game coach who has stockpiled regular season wins over 35 years.He is remarkable in that he has never had a losing season that is what makes him great, not his game-time decisions.

This is not my opinion, just sharing random people's thoughts who I have met around the country. We have basically been a laughing stock of college basketball for years going back to Paul Harris and Devendorf. As nice of a smile and interview as Flynn was, he strutted around on the court and most people basically thought he was a punk. So everyone thinks of SU as punks and all the discipline issues of the last 5 years doesn't help. Now add this years fetish show and circus and you would think you sheep errr loyalists would quiet down.

I love what he has done for SU and the community and I haven't exactly weighed in on his job security as it's none of my business. However when all of the professional basketball analysts and basically anyone who knows anything about basketball outside of folklore and wives tales is LITERALLY:
LAUGHING AT OUR COACHES DECISIONS ON THE COURT you would think the loyalists would take this time to run and hide, not call people out for being SICK AND TIRED of HORRENDOUS COACHING DECISIONS!

I am glad Hopkins is not giving JB in game advice. Another funny thought is people wonder if Hopkins will play exclusively zone, The idea that this is possible is hilarious. Coaches don't play one defense exclusively for the sake of playing that defense they adjust depending on the game/time/score.

Those disappointing games at the top of your message are not SU disappointments they are SU embarrassments! They are only in a category together because they at their core are prime examples of what is wrong with JB's on court decisions. Stop making excuses we have lost to bad teams (We got SOOOOO lucky today) because our coach is stubborn to the point of delusion. I'm glad we have him but if you don't understand the nuts and bolts of the game then just keep quiet.

What we are talking about; Short Bench, Blind Favoritism, Over use of the zone, Hating Freshmen etc.. are points of debate. Don't even get me going on a 35 yr. veteran of his craft being completely incapable of teaching efficient offense more than 1-2 times in 35 years.

 

[mikekan14]

I get frustrated at times with JB's stubbornness but this is a funny post. Anyone who watches this team and doesn't notice all the subtle adjustments made in the zone is simply not paying attention.

And JB should get credit for these subtle adjustments in the zone that guided our team to out-rebound UNCA by only 2 when our everyone knows about our height advantage?

My statement was meant beyond today's game. In the decade that I've been following the team, I've consistently held this view. I understand that many people on this site have followed him for all 35 years and will defend him at all costs. I'd like to believe my thinking is not as a result of a single game and is fairly objective (and the prevailing thought of people not wearing orange) but maybe I AM jaded by the lack of progress since the '03 championship. In my opinion, I watched too many games (outside of this one) where merely "tweaking" the zone in the 2nd half wasn't a big enough commitment to changing the course/outcome of the game. But this isn't just about the zone, for me.

It's a broader sentiment about his coaching. Either you don't realize that there is a rebounding problem because you believe the current abilities of players can better execute the job in the scheme devised OR you recognize that there is a rebounding problem and don't make significant enough scheme changes to overcome the lack of player abilities (over the course of the whole season)...I think that is stubbornness

 

[SoBristol]

Wow -- 32-2, Big East regular season champs, close win over a 16th seed but still alive. Brings out a lot of venom directed against our HOF coach.

I get the debate over short bench (played 8 rather than 9), the rotations among 3 veteran guards, playing zone consistently, and rebounding. But over-the-top venom?

Play MCW more and take minutes away from which guard? It is a reasonable debate -- after all, since MCW didn't play, he certainly would have been better than Scoop or BT in the first half.

Press more? Maybe, but Asheville is a small team that loves to play up-tempo. I might use that press tactically against a team with big guys who can't handle the ball in the open court.

More M2M? This team has won with its zone all year, hasn't played much M2M in games since November, but now would be a good time to change gears? Hmmm.

Better rebounding? A revelation -- probably never occurred to JB or Hop to work on rebounding. James has improved in this area, as has Rak, but overall this team gets pushed around inside. No magic wand here. Think they would rebound enough better out of M2M to make up for what they would lose by getting away from playing one of the better zones around? And you would turn our inside guys into fierce rebounders by doing what?

Post-season record: reasonable debate -- would love to have had a couple more FF opportunities in late 1980s through 1991; or with our recent strong team. We had a good team run into a red-hot Oklahoma team with an All-American center; our best recent team battled Butler without AO. This 32-2, number 1 seed, looks ripe for the picking. I don't see this as caused by JB's in-game decisions or overall approach (zone vs M2m, short bench or long, recruiting guys who are long & lean, demeanor in press-conferences), as much as by having a balanced team that has been struggling to eke out wins since mid-January. Our veterans (BT, Scoop & KJ) should show up on Saturday --

 

[Ghost]

I conclude this after reading other threads & combining with my own thoughts.

If was coaching to win rather than not to lose why wouldn't he:

Give MCW a shot when Scoop isn't doing much ??
Do something to up the tempo against teams trying to slow us down - press more, trap more, extend, etc. ??? I won't dare mention the three letter word.
Play our only hot player at crunch time - James was on the bench at the end ??
Get Brandon more minutes when Dion wasn't doing much in the 2nd half ??
Tell Kris he can't take a three until he at least makes a two ?
Tell CJ he can't take a J until he gets a hoop in the paint ??
Tell Dion to go hellbent for the hoop ??

We won't get very far playing scared. I didn't see a scared team during the first 20 games of the season.

I can't see telling Kris or CJ that they CAN'T do something. They've hit those most of the year. I mean, encouraging them to lay off the outside shots is fine if that's your point, but I don't want Kris gun shy on an open three. I just don't want him pulling the trigger early in the shot clock clock when he's not open.

CJ already seems to be playing without confidence - don't want to completely destroy it.

 

[newmexicuse]

I can't see telling Kris or CJ that they CAN'T do something. They've hit those most of the year. I mean, encouraging them to lay off the outside shots is fine if that's your point, but I don't want Kris gun shy on an open three. I just don't want him pulling the trigger early in the shot clock clock when he's not open.

CJ already seems to be playing without confidence - don't want to completely destroy it.

It is no secret that when players are slumping from outside that you try to get them going inside first. A couple of easy buckets increases confidence & generally will help to get them going from outside once they establish a bit of a scoring rhythm.

CJ, Kris, and Scoop are all in multi-game outside shooting slumps. I am simply advocating a strategy to try and get them going early rather than to keep doing the same unsuccessful things.