JB on Colin Cowherd's show

[Knicks411]

What respect has he earned? He couldn't get out the first round without KG and Ray Allen. Basketball is a team sport and star player always gets too much credit for winning and too much blame for losing.

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I agree with the second point, in general, but Pierce made the east finals in 2002, and the second round in 03

 

[Gabjon]

I agree with the second point, in general, but Pierce made the east finals in 2002, and the second round in 03

Yeah I forgot about that team.

 

[SoBeCuse]

For all the talk about the bad supporting cast Melo has, my quick math has the Knicks at 14-12 the last 2 years when Melo doesn't play. Caveats about small sample size and everything (and yes it includes last year as well), but thats about 44 win pace. The Knicks doesn't have a second mega star, but they have a pretty good team around Melo. They don't have a Wade, and Melo isn't Lebron, so they're going to lose to Miami in all likelihood (if they get that far, of course) but I don't think it's a terrible team around him by any stretch. A healthy Tyson Chandler is a great player, and they have a pretty good amount of depth on the roster that has let them fight through some injuries this year.

It is funny the excuses the get made for Melo (teammates suck, coach sucks, harder conference) with his career playoff line of 25/7/3 on 42% shooting and now 2 playoff series won, meanwhile as recently as 12 months ago Lebron (career playoff line of 29/9/7 on 47% shooting) was a choker.

All that being said, it's not fair for Melo to get compared to Lebron. Any player in the league is going to fall short in that comparison, and Melo should't have to face up to that comparison any more than anyone else because he happened to be in the same draft as the best player on the planet.

This should be 'Liked' a bunch. Great post, man.

 

[thebigeast44]

No team in the league this year has done as much as the Knicks with a max contract guy playing a very small role. If the Knicks had Howard or Bosh or a number of other big men up front to replace Amare, they would have a legitimate chance to win it all.

I hate sports talk when they attempt to demean an individual player in a team sport when it comes to playoff success. They are doing it to Melo now and not too long ago they were doing it to LeBron. I don't care how good you are as an individual player, you are not going to win a championship normally without at least 2 other all star caliber players. Jordan never won one before he had Pippen alongside and throw in Rodman etc and LeBron did not win one until he was a part of the big 3 in Miami. The only way the Knicks win one in the next few years is if Amare is able to get healthy again and revert back to his old all star form. Sadly, that is unlikely to happen.

 

[Gabjon]

No team in the league this year has done as much as the Knicks with a max contract guy playing a very small role. If the Knicks had Howard or Bosh or a number of other big men up front to replace Amare, they would have a legitimate chance to win it all.

I hate sports talk when they attempt to demean an individual player in a team sport when it comes to playoff success. They are doing it to Melo now and not too long ago they were doing it to LeBron. I don't care how good you are as an individual player, you are not going to win a championship normally without at least 2 other all star caliber players. Jordan never won one before he had Pippen alongside and throw in Rodman etc and LeBron did not win one until he was a part of the big 3 in Miami. The only way the Knicks win one in the next few years is if Amare is able to get healthy again and revert back to his old all star form. Sadly, that is unlikely to happen.

100% agreed! My hope is the amare retires...they can still pay him his money but he can come off the cap and we can go after CP3. Amare's knee are degenative and are never getting better. The doctor who did his micro-fracture in 2005 told him he had 5 years left to play its 8 years later...the Knicks knew this when the signed him and it the reason why Phoenix.

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[44cuse]

A couple of thoughts:

Can Lebron win more than one championship before we anoint him the greatest ever. I've seen him fail in the clutch plenty so far in his career

Lets not start this again. This was resolved last year.

44cuse

 

[44cuse]

Oy, not the ol' fail-in-the-clutch go-to again. http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/55923/lebron-james-heat-great-in-the-clutch

You best me to it. Love the clutch argument. Here's what comes next:

1. He's not the best player on his team
2. Dirk is better than LeBron
3. Stats don't matter

We all learned that on this almost exact same thread last year.

44cuse

 

[Knicks411]

Has anyone in this thread anointed Lebron as the greatest ever? We had a thread a few weeks ago with our personal top 10's, no one had Lebron #1. It's a strawman.

Edit: Take it back, I see someone did say he might be the greatest ever. I'm not there yet, for sure

100% agreed! My hope is the amare retires...they can still pay him his money but he can come off the cap and we can go after CP3.

Is that how it works? if he retires then I don't think they would owe him the money. And if they pay him, then I think it counts against the cap. From Larry Coon

Any money paid to a player is included in team salary, even if the player is no longer playing or has retired.
There is one exception whereby a player can continue to receive his salary, but the salary is excluded from team salary. This is when a player suffers a career-ending injury or illness. The team must waive the player, and can apply for this salary exclusion on the one-year anniversary of the last game in which the player played1. Only the player's team at the time the injury or illness was discovered (or reasonably should have been discovered) can apply for this salary exclusion.

So I think they would need some doctors to convince the league Amare can no longer play, which is gonna be tough. And isn't going to happen this summer anyway.

I'm not sure it really matters anyway, the knicks likely wouldn't have the cap space to make it work anyway even if they could make Amare disappear. They have $51 million tied up in the other contracts. A max contract for Paul would start at around $17 million a year. The cap this year is about $58 million, it might go up a few million, but it's not going up $10 million.You best me to it.

Love the clutch argument. Here's what comes next:

1. He's not the best player on his team
2. Dirk is better than LeBron
3. Stats don't matter

Haha yes, I remember one of the refrains from Lebron haters last year was "even if Lebron wins a title with Miami it will be Wade carrying him to it." LOL

 

[Rocco]

melo is not lebron but lebron may be the greatest player ever. however, when lebron took the cavs to the finals, the east was dog .

Nobody will ever be as great as Jordan. Ever. Lebron has won 4 MVP's, but only 1 title. Jordan won 6 titles and revolutionized the game and industry.

Lebron would have to come close to 6 titles before he even is considered as the best ever.

Just my opinion.

 

[Gabjon]

Has anyone in this thread anointed Lebron as the greatest ever? We had a thread a few weeks ago with our personal top 10's, no one had Lebron #1. It's a strawman.

Edit: Take it back, I see someone did say he might be the greatest ever. I'm not there yet, for sure



Is that how it works? if he retires then I don't think they would owe him the money. And if they pay him, then I think it counts against the cap. From Larry Coon




So I think they would need some doctors to convince the league Amare can no longer play, which is gonna be tough. And isn't going to happen this summer anyway.

I'm not sure it really matters anyway, the knicks likely wouldn't have the cap space to make it work anyway even if they could make Amare disappear. They have $51 million tied up in the other contracts. A max contract for Paul would start at around $17 million a year. The cap this year is about $58 million, it might go up a few million, but it's not going up $10 million.You best me to it.


Haha yes, I remember one of the refrains from Lebron haters last year was "even if Lebron wins a title with Miami it will be Wade carrying him to it." LOL

I need to double check the CBA rules when my internet is back up (router is down) also the cap is around 75 mill I'm 99% sure on that because okc is at 74 mill and 1 mill below the cap. Lastly Portland did this with Brandon Roy's contract last year and him and Amare have a similar medical history.

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[Knicks411]

I need to double check the CBA rules when my internet is back up (router is down) also the cap is around 75 mill I'm 99% sure on that because okc is at 74 mill and 1 mill below the cap. Lastly Portland did this with Brandon Roy's contract last year and him and Amare have a similar medical history.

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Luxury tax is $70 million, not the salary cap. I believe the apron is $74 million, meaning if you go over that you lose certain exceptions.

Roy and Amare aren't comparable. Roy got amnestied. The Knicks amnestied Billups, so they can't use that on Amare.

 

[Gabjon]

Luxury tax is $70 million, not the salary cap. I believe the apron is $74 million, meaning if you go over that you lose certain exceptions.

Roy and Amare aren't comparable. Roy got amnestied. The Knicks amnestied Billups, so they can't use that on Amare.

Yup you are right but then the Knicks are screwed because they have Jkid and Camby on the books for two more years, but there has been talk of getting out of those contracts through retirement... same with Nash in LA there has to be some prevision for this maybe they can sign a player when they are over the cap that they wouldn't be able to do otherwise... just a guess

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[Capt. Tuttle]

100% agreed! My hope is the amare retires...they can still pay him his money but he can come off the cap and we can go after CP3. Amare's knee are degenative and are never getting better. The doctor who did his micro-fracture in 2005 told him he had 5 years left to play its 8 years later...the Knicks knew this when the signed him and it the reason why Phoenix.

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Can they amnesty Amari's contract?

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[Gabjon]

Can they amnesty Amari's contract?

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I know, I have to do the research on what happens if he retires

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[CaptainJ]

What respect has he earned?

He survived multiple stab wounds, I think that deserves some respect. Lebron hasn't endured that yet. If you meant basketball, one could just see his ranking in many categories in the legendary Celtics organization.

 

[Knicks411]

Amare isn't eligible for the amnesty.

 

[Gabjon]

He survived multiple stab wounds, I think that deserves some respect. Lebron hasn't endured that yet. If you meant basketball, one could just see his ranking in many categories in the legendary Celtics organization.

He got stabbed for acting like a jerk in a club and disrespecting people. Not saying deserved to get stabbed but its not like he was walking down the street minding his own business either. He has had a nice career Ray Allen and KG have had better careers IMO.

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[jgeorge322]

Nobody will ever be as great as Jordan. Ever. Lebron has won 4 MVP's, but only 1 title. Jordan won 6 titles and revolutionized the game and industry.

Lebron would have to come close to 6 titles before he even is considered as the best ever.

Just my opinion.

not even trying to start an argument over this or hijack this thread. cant disagree on mj really. however, the game changes so much that it makes these arguments difficult. i always scoffed when i heard people talk about bill russell. i said, "he played against shrimps" and let my generational arrogance take over. then i saw this clip:


now whenever someone makes an argument about how great russell was, i smile, and say "you may be right"

 

[Niastri]

melo is not lebron but lebron may be the greatest player ever. however, when lebron took the cavs to the finals, the east was dog .

Lebron the greatest player ever is extreme hyperbole. He could wind up in the conversation, but he isn't there yet. Let's see how he ages.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

not even trying to start an argument over this or hijack this thread. cant disagree on mj really. however, the game changes so much that it makes these arguments difficult. i always scoffed when i heard people talk about bill russell. i said, "he played against shrimps" and let my generational arrogance take over. then i saw this clip:


now whenever someone makes an argument about how great russell was, i smile, and say "you may be right"

for consideration

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100224214633AAvvebd

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[jgeorge322]

Lebron the greatest player ever is extreme hyperbole. He could wind up in the conversation, but he isn't there yet. Let's see how he ages.

"hi, i am reality. have we met?" - reality

"i dont think so" - niastri

 

[AlaskaSU]

This gets silly. Intergenerational comparisons are impossible. No one was more dominant than Wilt, but for the most part he lacked a supporting cast. He was unstoppable both on O and rebounding and he led the league in assists one year just to show that he could do anything he wanted to do.

 

[Niastri]

"hi, i am reality. have we met?" - reality

"i dont think so" - niastri

Lebron has a long ways to go before he gets in the same conversation as Bill Russell.

Facts pulled from Russell's wikipedia page:

"William Felton "Bill" Russell (born February 12, 1934) is a retired American professional basketball player who played center for the Boston Celtics of the National Basketball Association (NBA). A five-time NBA Most Valuable Player and a twelve-time All-Star, Russell was the centerpiece of the Celtics dynasty, winning eleven NBA championships during his thirteen-year career. Along with Henri Richard of the National Hockey League's Montreal Canadiens, Russell holds the record for the most championships won by an athlete in a North American sports league. Before his professional career, Russell led the University of San Francisco to two consecutive NCAA championships (1955, 1956). He also won a gold medal at the 1956 Summer Olympics as captain of the U.S. national basketball team.[1]"

Too bad Bill wasted time winning two NCAA championships before winning 11 in his 13 seasons in the NBA, he could have won a few more if he hadn't had the mandatory red shirt year that all NCAA freshman suffered. Oh, and Lebron still has to win some more MVP awards to catch up. And there are at least four or five players between them for greatest of all time.

As for people talking about the differences between eras, you can only beat the people who take the floor against you, being that much better than everybody else from your time period is a bonus to your greatness, not a disadvantage. All you can do is whoop your peers. Nobody in the history of the NBA has come close to as successful as Russell in that one key category. Jordan only won the title in six of his thirteen healthy seasons, and Lebron has a long way to go before he is in the conversation for Jordan's place as second best of all time in the NBA.

People were still seriously arguing if Lebron is the best player of this time at the start of the season, and Durant may keep that argument going for a while.

Bill Russell was the greatest basketball player of all time, and the empirical record proves it.

Jgeorge322, you obviously don't know enough basketball history to have this conversation. Perhaps you will be inspired to learn some more history before posting in the future once you have read Russell's wikipedia page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Russell

 

[CorduroyG]

Nobody will ever be as great as Jordan. Ever. Lebron has won 4 MVP's, but only 1 title. Jordan won 6 titles and revolutionized the game and industry.

Lebron would have to come close to 6 titles before he even is considered as the best ever.

Just my opinion.

agree 10000000%. lebron won 1 title, congrats. he had to form a dream team to do it. he could win 13 straight mvps, but if he dont win at least 6 rings he wont surpass jordan in my book. ESPECIALLY since he joined forces with wade and bosh.

 

[Niastri]

A lot of players have won ONE championship.