JB on Colin Cowherd's show

[Gabjon]

This is my argument: If this Heat team could lose a home game to these Bulls without Deng, without Hinrich, and without Rose than Mike's Bulls would sweep this Heat team! No disrespect to Nate but if Nate can go 27 against them imagine what Jordan would have done!!!

 

[IthacaMatt]

I never said he was le LeBron The Eastern Conference that LeBron went trough to the finals was a joke. My point is the Melo is unfairly criticized because his cast in New York is terrible and be when he was out west he had to go through the best conference in the league trying to get past the first round is always playing the Lakers are San Antonio for one of the really powerful teams. Plus George Karl was is coach He screwed up Denver's playoffs again this year. He has had to try to drag JR Smith through the first round of playoffs for most of his career. Even the brown realized the great player can't win a championship with a bunch of knuckleheads and retreads behind him. That's what Melo has on the Knicks

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In NY, they need another guard. That's all that's wrong with that roster.

 

[Rocco]

A lot of players have won ONE championship.

Alot of players don't play alongside Wade and Bosh either, though. They are the clear favorite to win this year, but Lebron has a long way to go before he catches up with Jordan. JMO.

 

[Knicks411]

I'm a Lebron fan, but it's certainly years too earlier to talk about him as the greatest player of all time. He's 28. He has to pile up years and years of more great play to get in that conversation. (I fully expect him to do that, at least get in the conversation, but we aren't anywhere close to that point yet). If you want to argue Lebron at his best is right up there, that's an argument, but usually when we talk GOAT we're talking over the course of a career.

Kind of related, I wonder when, or if, we get some voter fatigue when it comes to Lebron winning MVP's. Jordan finished third in the MVP in 93, and second in 97, and I think most people would agree he was the MVP both years. Lebron has won 4 in 5 years, and I think the won he lost had something to do with voter fatigue.

And I'd have to question anyone who thought there was an argument between Durant and Lebron at the beginning of this year

 

[Gabjon]

The Heat are 4-6 on the year verse the Bulls, Indiana, and Memphis. What do this three teams have in common? Real NBA size the type that was common place in the NBA of the 80's and 90's. I thought a lot of older player who have been saying the league is down were haters, but I now I think they are right. If Noah, Gasol, and Hibbert can cause the best team in the league this much trouble what would Ewing, Olajuwon, and Robinson do?

As great as Lebron is size effects him and it matters. Micheal Jordan was player to consistently win against elite size without having elite on his team. Lebron may never have opportunity to compete against elite size but if he loses against average size than he can never be considered the best of the best. There is a reason that 5-6 of the 10 greatest players of all time are centers.

 

[jgeorge322]

Lebron is one of the greatest. To say its an extreme hyperbole which would mean an extreme, extreme exaggeration means you are clueless. Dan Marino never won a Super Bowl but you could make the argument he's the best quarterback of all time. Lebron is in the conversation and to say otherwise is ignorant.

 

[RandygoCuse]

He survived multiple stab wounds, I think that deserves some respect. Lebron hasn't endured that yet. If you meant basketball, one could just see his ranking in many categories in the legendary Celtics organization.

Here in Boston, we resepect him for many reasons. But I think above all, is that as bad as things got in Boston, he never asked to be traded. He simply said he needed more help. Once he got it, he held his side of the bargain. He sacrificed his stats for the good of the team, focused more on defense, and continued to lead. And he (as well as Garnett and Allen) took care of the championship right away. I have no problem putting him on my all time Celtics greats list...No, his overall career is not in the same category as Garnett's, but I certainly have him above Ray Allen.

 

[moqui]

Lebron the greatest player ever is extreme hyperbole. He could wind up in the conversation, but he isn't there yet. Let's see how he ages.

he's already in the conversation. you might not like it, and most won't put him at the top, but he is absolutely in the conversation.

A lot of players have won ONE championship.

including Oscar Robertson, and almost every knowledgeable hoops fan puts him in the conversation, too, even though he was just a supporting player when he finally won it.

Championships are a data point, but they are neither necessary nor sufficient in determining greatness. LeBron, the Big O, and Wilt Chamberlain with their 4 combined titles are in the conversation. Robert Horry, Steve Kerr and Derek Fisher with their 17 combined titles are not.

 

[Niastri]

Lebron is one of the greatest. To say its an extreme hyperbole which would mean an extreme, extreme exaggeration means you are clueless. Dan Marino never won a Super Bowl but you could make the argument he's the best quarterback of all time. Lebron is in the conversation and to say otherwise is ignorant.

In the face of a strong argument to your thoughts, the solution is not to merely state the same wrong opinion more stridently. Did you even try to look around at NBA history before returning to say the same dumb thing?

 

[Niastri]

he's already in the conversation. you might not like it, and most won't put him at the top, but he is absolutely in the conversation.

including Oscar Robertson, and almost every knowledgeable hoops fan puts him in the conversation, too, even though he was just a supporting player when he finally won it.

Championships are a data point, but they are neither necessary nor sufficient in determining greatness. LeBron, the Big O, and Wilt Chamberlain with their 4 combined titles are in the conversation. Robert Horry, Steve Kerr and Derek Fisher with their 17 combined titles are not.

True. The fact that Lebron has had a great start to his career isn't in doubt. He is clearly the best player in the NBA currently, and probably will continue to be the best player for at least a few more years. If he plays another 7 dominant regular seasons, then I would have to cede that he should be in the conversation. If Oscar Robertson or Wilt Chamberlain had won 10 titles instead of constantly losing in the playoffs, they would probably be moved to the head of the class. The game is about winning, after all. Guys who put up flashy numbers but lose aren't normally considered great. Wilkins never gets mentioned as among the best players any more, and his lack of wins is a big reason why. His numbers were up to par. Lebron hasn't won much yet, and he also is partnered with two players who are also among the best in the league in their own right.

Another title would move Lebron's needle. A spectacular performance would drive it a bit more. When people off the top of their head can name this many players who are clearly better, it is too soon to put him in the greatest of all time talk...

 

[Knicks411]

I just find it hard to compare a 28 year old player to guys who have finished their careers.

Though I'm not sure there has been a player in history who has been a better player over the last 12 months than Lebron has.

 

[jgeorge322]

In the face of a strong argument to your thoughts, the solution is not to merely state the same wrong opinion more stridently. Did you even try to look around at NBA history before returning to say the same dumb thing?

no sorry. i dont sit around reading wikipedia and doing so wouldnt even change my opinion. this is lebron's 10th year in the league. you act like hes played 3 years. the consensus among people who know a thing or two about the sport (eg. former players, long time respected analysts) is that hes in the top 10 of all time aka one of the greatest aka NOT AN EXTRME HYPERBOLE. you called my point dumb but then agreed with moqui in a subsequent post saying the same thing. go read a comic book or play magic cards, or whatever it is that you find so compelling as to make it your avatar.

 

[Knicks411]

I would agree that Lebron is one of the ten best players of all time. I don't think you can rank him up with the best of the best yet because of his age and he still has a way to go in his career, but i think 4 MVP's and a title is pretty much enough for top 10

 

[HakAttack]

Look...here's my beef with LeBron and why he will never even approach Jordan or even Kobe.

He's not the best player in the game today, he's just the most athletic. Kobe was the best player in the game, although not anymore. Jordan was the best player in the game. I contend that KD is the best player in the game today. Not LeBron.

The only reason why LeBron is so good is because he's bigger, faster and stronger than practically anyone else.

No way he wins 6 or even 5 rings. Athleticism doesn't last. Just ask Bo Jackson. Jordan won for damn near a decade because he was the BEST player in the league. Not the fastest or the strongest. The BEST.

When LeBron's career starts to slope downward, and believe me, it will happen sooner than we think, he's not winning more rings. He's no KG. He doesn't even have a good jump shot. He's like a career 75% from the line.

Athleticism can make you a king. Mastery of skills will make you a legend.

 

[Lawrinson14]

The only reason why LeBron is so good is because he's bigger, faster and stronger than practically anyone else.

Well, wouldn't this make Lebron the best player?

 

[Gabjon]

I would agree that Lebron is one of the ten best players of all time. I don't think you can rank him up with the best of the best yet because of his age and he still has a way to go in his career, but i think 4 MVP's and a title is pretty much enough for top 10

1jordan
2kareem
3russell
4wilt
5magic
6shaq
7hakeem
8bird
9kobe
10Dr J
11 the big O
12 lebron

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[CorduroyG]

he's already in the conversation. you might not like it, and most won't put him at the top, but he is absolutely in the conversation.

including Oscar Robertson, and almost every knowledgeable hoops fan puts him in the conversation, too, even though he was just a supporting player when he finally won it.

Championships are a data point, but they are neither necessary nor sufficient in determining greatness. LeBron, the Big O, and Wilt Chamberlain with their 4 combined titles are in the conversation. Robert Horry, Steve Kerr and Derek Fisher with their 17 combined titles are not.

if jordan had 1 title you think he'd be considered the best ever? no chance. if lebron wants to be in the discussion of greatest player ever hes gotta get the rings, theres zero doubt about that. an individual player's true greatness is more defined by championships in basketball more than any other team sport. in hockey you need a great goalie and youre only on the ice 20 minutes per game or whatever. in baseball you can hit 50 hrs every year but if your team's pitching sux you aint winning . marino is a top 5 qb of all time but he never played with a great running back or with a great defense, hard to win a super bowl without either of those. in basketball if youre truly an elite "greatest of all time" type of player you can win a championship with 1 all star teammate and a bunch of role players. jordan set the standard with that. horry, kerr and fisher are role players, not elite players so we're not comparing them.

 

[moqui]

if jordan had 1 title you think he'd be considered the best ever?

by some he might. there are still a lot of people who think Wilt is the best ever

second of all, this isn't about "being the best," it's only about "being in the conversation." Of course he is in the conversation, no matter how much the deniers try to drown that conversation out.

if lebron wants to be in the discussion of greatest player ever hes gotta get the rings,

you mean, if he wants to be in your conversation. the rest of us aren't bound by your silly rules

besides, even if he gets to three or more titles, you will find another reason to exclude him, that much is clear.

first came the Truthers, then the Birthers, but the most persistent will prove to be the LeBronzers.

 

[jgeorge322]

if jordan had 1 title you think he'd be considered the best ever? no chance. if lebron wants to be in the discussion of greatest player ever hes gotta get the rings, theres zero doubt about that. an individual player's true greatness is more defined by championships in basketball more than any other team sport. in hockey you need a great goalie and youre only on the ice 20 minutes per game or whatever. in baseball you can hit 50 hrs every year but if your team's pitching sux you aint winning . marino is a top 5 qb of all time but he never played with a great running back or with a great defense, hard to win a super bowl without either of those. in basketball if youre truly an elite "greatest of all time" type of player you can win a championship with 1 all star teammate and a bunch of role players. jordan set the standard with that. horry, kerr and fisher are role players, not elite players so we're not comparing them.

name dam marino's best wr he ever played with. that gives an indication of how good he is. anyways, the sports are so different but i think people put rings on a pedestal too much. i understand why, but you have to consider lebron in the conversation, and that is based on his achievements.


oh, and im sure people love niastri's stunning analysis and use of wikipedia, but for what its worth, larry freaking bird thinks lebron is one of the greatest of all time.

 

[LennX6]

A couple of thoughts:

Can Lebron win more than one championship before we anoint him the greatest ever. I've seen him fail in the clutch plenty so far in his career

The playoffs aren't even a round old and people are already trashing melo. Can he win or lose the series before we trash him. I agree he stunk in games 4 and 5, but a lot of the reason he stunk in game 4 was because J.R. Smith was out. Boston was the worst possible first round matchup for the knicks. We saw it earlier this year. They consistently are able to get Melo off his game. The only reason this is even a topic is because Cowher is trying to get people riled up. I don't think hes going to get good ratings talking about Golden State.

Its just like I had to laugh when people on this board said Steph Curry wasn't a star because he had a bad game in game 5. Now after game 6 he's great again.

Way to much talk about absolutes in the NBA after one game. It's a series for a reason. You need to win or lose 4 games for a series to be over. A lot of us need to stop listening to ESPN and start thinking for ourselves when it comes to watching sports. Just because a sportscaster or analyst says something doesn't mean it is right.

James is a once a lifetime player. I rank him #1, Wilt #2, Russell #3, Jordan#4, Magic #5. In reality they are microbes away from each other. I rate players high on "transformative" hence Wilt #2 with only 2 titles and 50% foul shooting. Almost put Dr. J up there because of that. James is not necessarily transformative but he does more "holy did you see that??!??" than anyone ever.

 

[HakAttack]

Well, wouldn't this make Lebron the best player?

No. It just means he's the best athlete. KD is the best player.

 

[LennX6]

This should be 'Liked' a bunch. Great post, man.

Here the things I see few people notice, in reference to Melo's surrounding cast, he has 3 other ex-Nuggets as teammates (actually more if Camby plays). Out of a 10 man rotation that means 40% of the Knicks team choked right along with 'Melo. Its still an oddly put together team, plus I've never been hep on Melo and JR Smith being the best guys to be on the same team .
I saw this team preseason as Melo and Chandler and 8 other guys, and foresaw a miserable year for the Knicks, You had big names past their prime (Kidd,Camby,Rasheed, Kenyon), unknowns ( Copeland, Prigioni) and question mark injury players (Stoudamire, Shumpert) . Felton, Kidd have played beyond expectations. JR Smith was unstoppable at some stretches, that all contributed to the 54-28.
That b

 

[Knicks411]

Lebron is a great player and athlete. The athleticism helps, of course, but he has greatly improved his jump shot. The dude shot 41% from three this year. He's an unbelievable passer. He's lethal out of the post now.

When the athleticism starts to go then he will play more at the 4 and will slice people up with his passing out of the post.

Durant's athleticism helps him too, don't fool yourself.

 

[Chosen0ne]

Look...here's my beef with LeBron and why he will never even approach Jordan or even Kobe.

He's not the best player in the game today, he's just the most athletic. Kobe was the best player in the game, although not anymore. Jordan was the best player in the game. I contend that KD is the best player in the game today. Not LeBron.

The only reason why LeBron is so good is because he's bigger, faster and stronger than practically anyone else.

No way he wins 6 or even 5 rings. Athleticism doesn't last. Just ask Bo Jackson. Jordan won for damn near a decade because he was the BEST player in the league. Not the fastest or the strongest. The BEST.

When LeBron's career starts to slope downward, and believe me, it will happen sooner than we think, he's not winning more rings. He's no KG. He doesn't even have a good jump shot. He's like a career 75% from the line.

Athleticism can make you a king. Mastery of skills will make you a legend.

I think you're way off--and, I can't stand Lebron. He's the best player in the game today. It's not even close. He does have superior physical gifts, but he maximizes their effectiveness. If you want to argue he isn't the best shooter in the NBA, I can agree with you. However, he is arguably the best defender in the league, an incredible passer, good shooter, great ball-handler, and shoots a ridiculous % from the field. Not to mention that you could put him with any 4 scrubs in the league and they probably win 50+ games. Jordan was an out of this world athlete as well. Ever heard the phrase "Air Jordan". Being the best is a combination of what you can do and what is the impact...where that comes from--athleticism, skillset--is irrelevant when defining the best.

 

[br801]

The only reason why LeBron is so good is because he's bigger, faster and stronger than practically anyone else..

This could be said of many transcendent athletes -- their size, speed and strength far surpasses that of others in their sport (or at their position).

By your logic, it seems we should also discount the accomplishments of players like Wilt Chamberlain, Jim Brown and Lawrence Taylor. Ridiculous.