JB Struggles in March

[otto123]

What do you guys think is the main reason JB struggles in the tournament? He has only made it past the sweet 16 four times in 36 years.

 

[br801]

What do you guys think is the main reason JB struggles in the tournament? He has only made it past the sweet 16 four times in 36 years.

Because those other damn tournament teams are trying to win too.

 

[NKR1978]

He's made it to the Sweet 16 seventeen times. How many guys have done that?

 

[otto123]

He's made it to the Sweet 16 seventeen times. How many guys have done that?

He is 4-13 in those games

 

[NKR1978]

He is 4-13 in those games

Right. But how many college basketball coaches have even gotten that far 17 times, along with the two runners up and national championship?

 

[otto123]

Right. But how many college basketball coaches have even gotten that far 17 times, along with the two runners up and national championship?

Never said he was a terrible coach but he struggles to make it deep in the tournament. 36 years and only getting past the sweet 16 4 times

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

What do you guys think is the main reason JB struggles in the tournament? He has only made it past the sweet 16 four times in 36 years.

IMO he has over coached his talent many years and it catches up to you. Sometimes (1996) you get breaks and get to FF despite the lack of overall talent. Only fans think we have always had great talent. Injuries (Gmac, AO come to mind), illness, (Sherm), great players (Cornbread), great teams (Illinois, Kentucky), all contribute. Sometimes we just laid an egg.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

He's made it to the Sweet 16 seventeen times. How many guys have done that?

With the talent he's had roll through here..I'm not sure that in and of itself is that impressive. You aren't really beating anyone to get to the sweet 16 when you are a 2-3 seed.

 

[NKR1978]

With the talent he's had roll through here..I'm not sure that in and of itself is that impressive. You aren't really beating anyone to get to the sweet 16 when you are a 2-3 seed.

Aside from the last few years our seeds haven't been consistently good.

 

[Marsh01]

Right. But how many college basketball coaches have even gotten that far 17 times, along with the two runners up and national championship?

Are you related to Blue Curtain?

 

[otto123]

I think the 2-3 zone may be part of the reason it gives teams that are not as talented a better chance to win. It's one and done in the tournament a team get's hot and that's it

 

[moqui]

I am not sure how meaningful the statistic is when judging a coach's place in history.

For example, in a 40 year career, the great Bobby Knight only advanced past the Sweet 16 on eight occasions.

 

[44cuse]

I am not sure how meaningful the statistic is when judging a coach's place in history.

For example, in a 40 year career, the great Bobby Knight only advanced past the Sweet 16 on eight occasions.

So does that make ~ twice as a good a coach as JB?

44cuse

 

[OttoMets]

In the past decade or so, not having great half-court offensive teams has not helped.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

A lot of NCAA Tournament games are played in NBA arenas.

The 2-3 zone is less effective on an NBA sized court.

 

[rstone7727]

Only in the last few years has JB been able to recruit with the big boys. Syracuse has always had a decent team, year after year but the level of talent that was typically recruited in the past was two-3 star players and one-4 star player per year. Even now we are a step behind Kentucky, UNC, OSU and many others. Our 2011 class was only ranked 10th - 2010 was 15th - 2009 we weren't even in the top 25 and 2008 we were 22nd... So, these people that claim we have had mega talent, simply have it wrong... JB has milked all he could out of what he had to work with.

 

[All4SU]

He is 4-13 in those games

And was underdog in most of them.

 

[BlueCurtain]

Only in the last few years has JB been able to recruit with the big boys. Syracuse has always had a decent team, year after year but the level of talent that was typically recruited in the past was two-3 star players and one-4 star player per year. Even now we are a step behind Kentucky, UNC, OSU and many others. Our 2011 class was only ranked 10th - 2010 was 15th - 2009 we weren't even in the top 25 and 2008 we were 22nd... So, these people that claim we have had mega talent, simply have it wrong... JB has milked all he could out of what he had to work with.

If it's a talent apology issue, that ultimately also falls on Boeheim. And for the record, getting past the sweet 16 8x in 40 years is a helluva lot better than 4 times in 36. 5:1 vs 9:1. By the time March rolls around, most teams have had a full year to practice their zone offense - even if they only run it occasionally. There are very few teams that are as fundamentally unprepared as Kelvin Sampson.

That being said, even given the 9:1 success ratio, JB is due for a run.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

He is 4-13 in those games

You are just cherry picking JB's worst round of games. Why else would you use getting past the sweet 16. It is pretty much the most irrelevant game in the tourney. The first round is big to avoid an embarrasing upset. The second round (from 32 to 16) is big because it gets you the four extra days of relevance, it gets you playing in the second weekend.

Winning the elite 8 is big because it gets you another weekend, and into the final 4. Winning in the final 4 gets you much pub because you get into the championship. And of course winning the final round is big because it gives you the championship.

In my opinion, you choose the most insignificant game in the tourney to judge him, because that is where he has his worst mark. That makes you a tool. Sorry.

 

[otto123]

You are just cherry picking JB's worst round of games. Why else would you use getting past the sweet 16. It is pretty much the most irrelevant game in the tourney. The first round is big to avoid an embarrasing upset. The second round (from 32 to 16) is big because it gets you the four extra days of relevance, it gets you playing in the second weekend.

Winning the elite 8 is big because it gets you another weekend, and into the final 4. Winning in the final 4 gets you much pub because you get into the championship. And of course winning the final round is big because it gives you the championship.

In my opinion, you choose the most insignificant game in the tourney to judge him, because that is where he has his worst mark. That makes you a tool. Sorry.

What are you talking about? How is the sweet 16 the most insignificant? The most significant is the last game you played. The fact is JB has gotten past the sweet 16 4 times in 36 years if you can't see that then you're a homer.

 

[realorange]

I think the 2-3 zone may be part of the reason it gives teams that are not as talented a better chance to win. It's one and done in the tournament a team get's hot and that's it

WHAT??

 

[otto123]

WHAT??

WHAT???

 

[CorduroyG]

I think the biggest knock on JB is his stretch from '86-'91. We were stacked all those years, legit final 4/national championship contenders. Yes he was 1 keith smart missed jumper away from a title, but only got to 1 final 4 during that stretch, and had early tourny ousters in 86, 88, and 91. And lost to a higher seeded team in 90 in sweet 16. Since 1991 how many times have we been legit title contenders? Not too many. '92, '94 and '95 we lost OT games to lower seeded teams, including two 1 seeds. 1998-2001 were solid teams but would have needed some big time luck and favorable draws to make a final 4. 2004 team was not beating uconn even if they beat alabama. Id say in the last 20 years 2005 was probably the only time we had a legit shot to make the final 4 and got bounced early. 2010 to butler sucked but without AO that was not a final 4 team either, and as we saw butler was pretty damn good.

Having said all that, we need to AT LEAST make the final 4 this year to shut everyone up.

 

[HoustonCuse]

JB does under perform in Sweet 16 games. It is a fact. His lifetime record against Top 10 ranked teams is 53-63 (.457). His lifetime record in the Sweet 16, which typically is going to involve games against Top 10 - 20 caliber teams is 4-13 (.235). So even compared to his career average, he is performing at roughly half his own winning pct in the Sweet 16. There is something definitely odd about his terrible performances in those games.

Remember, one of the four wins required two once-in-a-lifetime buzzer beaters (one to force OT, one to win). It literally is a miracle when JB can get a team past that game.

And ps: His lifetime record against Top 5 teams is even better than his Sweet 16 record. He's 17-41 (.293) vs the Top 5.

 

[BuffOrange]

I think the biggest knock on JB is his stretch from '86-'91. We were stacked all those years, legit final 4/national championship contenders. Yes he was 1 keith smart missed jumper away from a title, but only got to 1 final 4 during that stretch, and had early tourny ousters in 86, 88, and 91. And lost to a higher seeded team in 90 in sweet 16. Since 1991 how many times have we been legit title contenders? Not too many. '92, '94 and '95 we lost OT games to lower seeded teams, including two 1 seeds. 1998-2001 were solid teams but would have needed some big time luck and favorable draws to make a final 4. 2004 team was not beating uconn even if they beat alabama. Id say in the last 20 years 2005 was probably the only time we had a legit shot to make the final 4 and got bounced early. 2010 to butler sucked but without AO that was not a final 4 team either, and as we saw butler was pretty damn good.

Having said all that, we need to AT LEAST make the final 4 this year to shut everyone up.

Well said. The knock on 86-91 I think is partially fair. But at the same time, you could look at multiple 6year stretches of UNC/Duke/Kansas and see underachieving tournament flameouts and no championships. They tend to get overlooked because they bring in bigtime players every single year and eventually win a championship, which is almost bound to happen when you have virtually no down-cycles in recruiting. I think a lot of casual fans of other programs just look at the late 80s and Carmelo and the recent classes and just assume we were bringing in monster McD's AA's from 92-02 even though Wallace was the only one.