JB's Presser after BC

[Jasoncuse]

Two would have helped. He wasn't staying all four.

The kid left THREE years ago! My gosh, he's not the reason we are where we are now.

Our limited recruiting focus has been the issue, not Ennis leaving early.

 

[Jack Hall]

Yeah, I'm not sure how anyone can claim our O isn't a problem. We scored 50 in two losses, struggled to 60 in a blowout loss to Wisconsin, scored 60 against a bad Johnnies team and got to 81 today with a big 2nd half in another blowout to a bad team. Our O stinks and has for years now. We don't have quality guards and don't run an offense. Heck, we only have two guys shooting better than 50% on 2 pt shots. It's bad all around except against nobodies, so seasonal stats appear decent.

Its been many many years since our offense was remotely dominant, cant say that to same degree about our D...

 

[Jasoncuse]

Its been many many years since our offense was remotely dominant, cant say that to same degree about our D...

We used to have an efficient offense and would routinely have kids hitting 50% of their shots or higher. Now, everything is a struggle. EVERYTHING.

 

[bballbeadle]

Just to discuss this line of reasoning...
Those teams will all still finish at the top of the league. Whether they lost playing m2m is irrelevant, since no one is suggesting m2m is the formula for an undefeated season. I didn't watch all those games, but what was the defense played AGAINST those losing teams? If it was zone, then there's something to think about.

"Why does anyone think we'll have success." I don't think it's reasonable to think we'll have "success" by switching to man this year. We haven't been able to play it for a long time for some reason. We used to be pretty successful playing, so i don't know what changed other than a complete philosophy change. But, why might we have success? It's not a matter of a thousand forum 'experts' saying we should do it. If (guessing) 92% of college coaches—people who spend their entire lives playing, learning, then coaching, and have their livelihoods dependent upon their successes—have 'studied/assessed' the matter and decided that m2m is the best 'foundation' defense for their programs, then why is it so ludicrous for us to suggest that it's possibly better for us, as well? Because our identity has morphed into us being zone-exclusive? Our identity wasn't forged by zone. Our brand became that, after we had already built and established ourselves.

It's not even a matter of in-game stats. There's a more global effect to what defense we play. We used to be a fast, show-time, up and down, high-flying, scoring team. Gradually, we've become a slow, low-scoring, half-court-inept team. Sorta coincided with the switch to being exclusively zone. And our recruiting, where we used to be in the mix for top 10 kids has slipped to where we're grateful for a 25th-ranked kid, and surprised to still be on a list for someone higher. What changed? With recent final fours, we still aren't a major player for the bigger names? We get kids like Lydon and convince ourselves that we're skilled at finding diamonds in the rough, or that we want who the staff wants, or that our kids are downgraded and Kentucky/Duke kids get ratings boosts. Or, that ratings don't matter at all. Until we get smacked in the mouth, and we can't score from under the hoop, or we can't beat anyone off the dribble, or we aren't athletic enough to switch to man to man, or we can't finish, or we no longer fast break, or we don't dunk, or we don't alley-oop anymore... Zone affects recruiting. It just does. No, there are no links, stats, or whitepapers to prove it. Even if there were, denyers would deny.

Our brand is not what it was. I wish i had the kind of memory that allowed me to reflect back to 2013(?) and how fantastic we were and how we shoulda won it all... But, i still wouldn't see how that helps us. How that's constructive, toward recognizing problems that exist now. Gratitude and perspective are great. Maybe they help some of us through rough patches. And maybe some people take past success as a predictor of future success. But, we are in flux, and whatever there was that 'ensured' consistency in a relative sense over the past years is either no longer a given, or is nothing to take for granted going forward.

Whatever is happening, we're struggling as a team, the fanbase is suffering, and we're all just here commiserating. Luckily, this isn't football. One player/recruit can transform 'the franchise.' We have an arena that is an asset rather than a liability. We have a more recent history of success, and a prominent alum. But, even Carmelo isn't paying off as much as i would hope. Maybe his time of influence is done/waning. Which also concerns me. When he's done, if we don't have NBAers starting and playing important minutes for prime teams, that'll be another recruiting negative. Lots of considerations factor into a 16-17 year old kid's decisions. I'm not suggesting that any one of these things is a death knell. But, if you're a top recruit, and you take the simple Pro/Con or Plus/Minus checklist as a map toward choosing a college, it's hard for me to see how we're not fighting a bit more uphill than we've been used to.

Zelda, I really appreciate all the energy/effort you've been making to post thoughtfully during this cluster**** of a week we've had. We have NEVER seen the like of this, and I for one am gobsmacked. This has been a San Andreas level 10 earthquake to the program and to our psyches.

There have been a number of really good posters here today, and you are certainly one of them. I thank all the posters who are doing their best to think constructively while at the same time acknowledging the depth of trouble we are in.

 

[Jack Hall]

We used to have an efficient offense and would routinely have kids hitting 50% of their shots or higher. Now, everything is a struggle. EVERYTHING.

I know what you mean but there were stretches when JSuth was raining down 3s that our offense was very effective in 2013. And then last year when G, Mal and Cooney got going at same time our offense was impressive last year, ie in elite 8 and bahamas. But we just cant keep it going consistently. Ie when JSuth was hot against iu and maquette, SU was dominant. But then he went cold against mich and it was over. Same with G, Mal, TC- they never got hot together for more than 2 games in a row

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Zelda, I really appreciate all the energy/effort you've been making to post thoughtfully during this cluster**** of a week we've had. We have NEVER seen the like of this, and I for one am gobsmacked. This has been a San Andreas level 10 earthquake to the program and to our psyches.

There have been a number of really good posters here today, and you are certainly one of them. I thank all the posters who are doing their best to think constructively while at the same time acknowledging the depth of trouble we are in.

Thank you, ever so much!
The emotions may change, but the love lasts!

 

[iommi]

Thank you, ever so much!
The emotions may change, but the love lasts!

Yeah, your lengthy post deserves a ton of likes.

 

[br801]

You make a lot of great points but i am an empirical guy. And empirically speaking in JBs roughly first 20 yrs, when he played more m2m, he had 2 FFs and no national championships. In his roughly next 20 years where he morphed to playing almost exclusively zone, he had 3 FFs and one NC. To me the ncaa sanctions and the switch to the acc have been the true root of most of our recent struggles, more so than the rigid dependence on the zone. And even then weve had 2 FFs in 4 years (altho worth noting one of them was from Big East). The first time JB has achieved 2 FFs in such a short period of time. You can criticize the zone all you want , much of those criticisms have some validity, but i think most people can recognize that the zone was one of the primary reasons we made those 2 FFs in 4 years, besides the fact we had a plethora of guys drafted by nba on those two teams...

And were it not for an untimely injury and a suspension, there might have been two more Final Fours and another national championship or two in recent years.

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

Duke, UNC, NC State, Wake, and Virginia all lost yesterday.

Don't they all play m2m?

You'd think that m2m teams were undefeated since Naismith invented the game.

If good m2m teams can lose, why does anyone think we'll have success.

But didn't they all get beat by teams playing M2M?

 

[iommi]

And were it not for an untimely injury and a suspension, there might have been two more Final Fours and another national championship or two in recent years.

Very true and that speaks to JB's greatness and his legacy. Those are rock solid.

It doesn't speak to the current mess and the future. We are on very shaky ground there.

 

[Jack Hall]

Very true and that speaks to JB's greatness and his legacy. Those are rock solid.

It doesn't speak to the current mess and the future. We are on very shaky ground there.

Imo the University is going to have to loosen purse strings in coming years for SU to get on rock solid ground again post JB and in the acc era. Does the U have the ability to do that or would it have to be mostly Melo type donations?

 

[iommi]

Imo the University is going to have to loosen purse strings in coming years for SU to get on rock solid ground again post JB and in the acc era. Does the U have the ability to do that or would it have to be mostly Melo type donations?

Agreed.

 

[br801]

Imo the University is going to have to loosen purse strings in coming years for SU to get on rock solid ground again post JB and in the acc era. Does the U have the ability to do that or would it have to be mostly Melo type donations?

The Dome and the facilities there are to be renovated and the Melo Center in place. Where do you see the need for additional expenditures, perhaps to bring in new coaching blood from outside the program?

 

[Jack Hall]

The Dome and the facilities there are to be renovated and the Melo Center in place. Where do you see the need for additional expenditures, perhaps to bring in new coaching blood from outside the program?

Yes coaching (post JB possibly) and maybe some new player amenities for recruiting. Uk was in a decided funk with their gillespie era, and they spent their way out of it successfully with the cal era. I am not saying it would come to that for SU, but it is slightly trending in that direction imo. We have in no way shape or form proven we can have Big East success (we became accustomed to) in the acc era, outside of the huge uva elite 8 win.

 

[Scooch]

SU's offensive ineptitude the past few years is why I watch more NBA now. It's so refreshing to watch games that aren't rock fights.

 

[Jack Hall]

It is very easy to blame any recent struggles (even if they wind up short lived) on the ncaa sanctions. There is a lot of validity to those claims. But look at our record so far in acc. And then look at our final Big East record over the same # of games. Its like night and day. And then remember we had two seasons in acc before the ncaa sanctions got handed down. In those two seasons our record was not as good as it typically was in BE. And then also look at fact that we went to FF AFTER the sanctions (also keeping in mind uconvict won a ship immediately after sanctions). The switch to acc might be just as onerous as the sanctions and we might very well have to up spending bigtime to be competitive with the duks and unc vs what we had to spend to be competitive vs uconns and gtowns...

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Just to discuss this line of reasoning...
Those teams will all still finish at the top of the league. Whether they lost playing m2m is irrelevant, since no one is suggesting m2m is the formula for an undefeated season. I didn't watch all those games, but what was the defense played AGAINST those losing teams? If it was zone, then there's something to think about.

"Why does anyone think we'll have success." I don't think it's reasonable to think we'll have "success" by switching to man this year. We haven't been able to play it for a long time for some reason. We used to be pretty successful playing, so i don't know what changed other than a complete philosophy change. But, why might we have success? It's not a matter of a thousand forum 'experts' saying we should do it. If (guessing) 92% of college coaches—people who spend their entire lives playing, learning, then coaching, and have their livelihoods dependent upon their successes—have 'studied/assessed' the matter and decided that m2m is the best 'foundation' defense for their programs, then why is it so ludicrous for us to suggest that it's possibly better for us, as well? Because our identity has morphed into us being zone-exclusive? Our identity wasn't forged by zone. Our brand became that, after we had already built and established ourselves.

It's not even a matter of in-game stats. There's a more global effect to what defense we play. We used to be a fast, show-time, up and down, high-flying, scoring team. Gradually, we've become a slow, low-scoring, half-court-inept team. Sorta coincided with the switch to being exclusively zone. And our recruiting, where we used to be in the mix for top 10 kids has slipped to where we're grateful for a 25th-ranked kid, and surprised to still be on a list for someone higher. What changed? With recent final fours, we still aren't a major player for the bigger names? We get kids like Lydon and convince ourselves that we're skilled at finding diamonds in the rough, or that we want who the staff wants, or that our kids are downgraded and Kentucky/Duke kids get ratings boosts. Or, that ratings don't matter at all. Until we get smacked in the mouth, and we can't score from under the hoop, or we can't beat anyone off the dribble, or we aren't athletic enough to switch to man to man, or we can't finish, or we no longer fast break, or we don't dunk, or we don't alley-oop anymore... Zone affects recruiting. It just does. No, there are no links, stats, or whitepapers to prove it. Even if there were, denyers would deny.

Our brand is not what it was. I wish i had the kind of memory that allowed me to reflect back to 2013(?) and how fantastic we were and how we shoulda won it all... But, i still wouldn't see how that helps us. How that's constructive, toward recognizing problems that exist now. Gratitude and perspective are great. Maybe they help some of us through rough patches. And maybe some people take past success as a predictor of future success. But, we are in flux, and whatever there was that 'ensured' consistency in a relative sense over the past years is either no longer a given, or is nothing to take for granted going forward.

Whatever is happening, we're struggling as a team, the fanbase is suffering, and we're all just here commiserating. Luckily, this isn't football. One player/recruit can transform 'the franchise.' We have an arena that is an asset rather than a liability. We have a more recent history of success, and a prominent alum. But, even Carmelo isn't paying off as much as i would hope. Maybe his time of influence is done/waning. Which also concerns me. When he's done, if we don't have NBAers starting and playing important minutes for prime teams, that'll be another recruiting negative. Lots of considerations factor into a 16-17 year old kid's decisions. I'm not suggesting that any one of these things is a death knell. But, if you're a top recruit, and you take the simple Pro/Con or Plus/Minus checklist as a map toward choosing a college, it's hard for me to see how we're not fighting a bit more uphill than we've been used to.

God bless you for having the energy and passion left to type that many words.

 

[leftytg]

Yes coaching (post JB possibly) and maybe some new player amenities for recruiting. Uk was in a decided funk with their gillespie era, and they spent their way out of it successfully with the cal era. I am not saying it would come to that for SU, but it is slightly trending in that direction imo. We have in no way shape or form proven we can have Big East success (we became accustomed to) in the acc era, outside of the huge uva elite 8 win.

when you say UK "spent" their way to the successful Cal era, I don't think player amenities are what helped Kentucky.

Or, perhaps, one would better describe it by saying player "amenities" helped Kentucky.

Either way, Kentucky's methods are not prescriptive for Syracuse.

 

[OrangePA]

He emphasized how the players, the guards in particular, aren't grasping the zone.

But anyone know how many teams only play the zone nowadays? Not many, I'm sure.

The zone can't be your only defense in today's game. Too many good shooters. The game has changed.

A good man-to-man employs match-up zone concepts. That is, helping out on the ball and playing in space off the ball.

I do not think its system.

To me it's effort and execution. These guys just don't play hard from what I have seen and they just don't seem to get the concepts of basic, effective defense.

 

[iommi]

The Dome and the facilities there are to be renovated and the Melo Center in place. Where do you see the need for additional expenditures, perhaps to bring in new coaching blood from outside the program?

Yes coaching (post JB possibly) and maybe some new player amenities for recruiting. Uk was in a decided funk with their gillespie era, and they spent their way out of it successfully with the cal era. I am not saying it would come to that for SU, but it is slightly trending in that direction imo. We have in no way shape or form proven we can have Big East success (we became accustomed to) in the acc era, outside of the huge uva elite 8 win.

Yep, really need a players dorm. And we need to spend on coaching too.

 

[iommi]

A good man-to-man employs match-up zone concepts. That is, helping out on the ball and playing in space off the ball.

I do not think its system.

To me it's effort and execution. These guys just don't play hard from what I have seen and they just don't seem to get the concepts of basic, effective defense.

Biggest shock on defense individually is Battle. I watched him a ton in high school. He was a ferocious on-ball defender in man defense. Now, he routinely gets out of position (usually winds up too far inside) and looks pretty lost.

 

[Jack Hall]

when you say UK "spent" their way to the successful Cal era, I don't think player amenities are what helped Kentucky. Or, perhaps I should say, player "amenities" helped Kentucky.

Either way, not prescriptive for Syracuse.

Maybe but Cal is the highest paid coach in college ball , it worked for them. K is the second highest paid coach

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Biggest shock on defense individually is Battle. I watched him a ton in high school. He was a ferocious on-ball defender in man defense. Now, he routinely gets out of position (usually winds up too far inside) and looks pretty lost.

I think that's part of our strategy that isn't working this year. All our guards seem to be trying to contest the pass to the big at the foul line and it ends up leaving the guards way out of position to contest deep threes.

 

[iommi]

I think that's part of our strategy that isn't working this year. All our guards seem to be trying to contest the pass to the big at the foul line and it ends up leaving the guards way out of position to contest deep threes.

Don't you hate me or am I thinking of someone with a similar handle?

 

[orangehomer]

The kid left THREE years ago! My gosh, he's not the reason we are where we are now.

Our limited recruiting focus has been the issue, not Ennis leaving early.

ummm, the thing is that even the fabled mr. ennis couldn't get us past Dayton, in buffalo no less