Kadary et al

[bpo57]

Dick makes some excellent points and I agree with most of them. The one area where I would comment on is the points about various players that transferred and never really did anything after they left. This is a line that JB uses often as if that vindicates his PT decisions. The reality is that his recent inability to find players that are good enough to contribute and who warrant any kind of serious PT is a major reason why we're on the bubble every year.

 

[dasher]

While I like most really appreciate the time you take to provide information I honestly don’t know why you do - good for you if you can focus on the good folks on this board and not the tools. I’d have been long gone : )

Getting very close. Thanks

 

[SUGIANT]

I'm very surprised that people continue to defend JB on this one. 100% deserves total blame and massive criticism.

I appreciate all JB has done for Syracuse basketball, but he's not immune to criticism.

I'm looking forward to his retirement. I hope he recognizes it's time to retire soon and does the right thing. Wildhack can't let this linger on for more than a season or two more.

I have no doubt JB 100% deserves blame. I’m just not sure what the 100% is. did he create the transfer portal? Did he make the kids decide (that’s only 50% of the blame involved there). A month ago he couldn’t coach, after the sweet 16 run, is that fair?

I'm with Dick on this one. I’ll wait until the dust settles a bit before blaming anyone. After all there is this thing called free will. So if one or more comes back does JB deserve 100% of the credit.

same negative crap I’ve heard since 1977 or so. None of it is new, except some different faces is all.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I have no doubt JB 100% deserves blame. I’m just not sure what the 100% is. did he create the transfer portal? Did he make the kids decide (that’s only 50% of the blame involved there). A month ago he couldn’t coach, after the sweet 16 run, is that fair?

I'm with Dick on this one. I’ll wait until the dust settles a bit before blaming anyone. After all there is this thing called free will. So if one or more comes back does JB deserve 100% of the credit.

same negative crap I’ve heard since 1977 or so. None of it is new, except some different faces is all.

Why does a guy who has one national championship in 45 years garner such defense from you guys? I don’t get it.

 

[SUGIANT]

I firmly believe that announcers got Q and AG confused at times because of their similar hairstyles.

I did especially at the beginning of the year. I know Jim Nance did.

 

[bpo57]

I did especially at the beginning of the year. I know Jim Nance did.

Big Jim Nance was a helluva football player.

 

[Cuse_NYC]

We need Woody to stay. Please!

Nothing against Woody, but why?

 

[Giants1973]

Nothing against Woody, but why?

They need all help they can get

 

[SUGIANT]

Why does a guy who has one national championship in 45 years garner such defense from you guys? I don’t get it.

Well is it 4 (5?) final fours, 3 championship games as well as BE championships and damn good basketball for the past 40+ years? I know we’re not NC, Kentucky or Duke, but after that, well maybe UConn, I don’t see all those teams with multiple NCs under thier belt And fewer by 1 coach, Indiana with Bobby Knight. Some may have gotten there but not one, JB is a top 10 or 15 coach during those 40 years as far as I’m concerned.

I'm Orange colored through and through. And don’t care what anyone thinks, well there are some I care what they think, like my wife. The noise has been the same since he started. They wanted JB fired since day 1 he wasn’t good looking enough, had nose issues (like most of us from CNY), wasn’t suave like Ricky P. or overpowering like J. Thompson. Can’t recruit despite evidence to the contrary, see Pearl, Ronnie Siekly, Louie, Bouie, sherm, DC, BO, Lawrence Moten, Stevie Thompson, John Wallace, Johnny Flynn, Todd Burgan, Gerry McNamara, DeShaun, QG, Marek, Carmel, and I’ve missed to many to count. Tell me what schools have had more, more wins, more final 4s and more NC and conference championships over that time. Has UCLA, Arizona, Michigan, Ohio St., I don’t see anyone beyond the first 3, well 4 or 5, above that have accomplished any more than SU. Yeah there’s an argument for any of them, but SU is in the argument and not just the last NC game back, right up to today.

JB can’t recruit but Y’all sure are worried about the players we have leaving. Quincy was a good recruit, QR was a good recruit, JG was a good recruit (despite being in the SU doghouse), Griff was a good recruit, jalen Carey was a good recruit, Andre White, Oshae Brisset, Frank Howard, Tyus Battle and so on. All good recruits that got the team to the tourney and many further than what we expected.

and that’s the thing, SU seems to exceed expectations. JB has always done more with less, or seeming less. I’m mean that one NC that seems to lower JBs worth. They were what a 5 seed? How many 5 seeds win NCs, I don’t know. But I know not many.

sure y’all haters of JB have some compelling arguments to a point. Then when I think about the bigger picture I see no difference between now and John Wallace’s time frame, or maybe the year before the NC run when everyone questioned Rony Seikaly and wanted JB fired, why? Well he counldn’t recruit and he was a bad Coach. They used to pick on me when I was in the Navy, even said he was fired and SU had hired John Thompson ( I’m a bit gullible at times) Every coach is bad for someone when he fails to do what they want. But there’s always next year, and many times what doesn’t seem so great becomes special. I don’t know what this year with Covid, Sidbe and so on would fit. I do know I will defend JB, might be wrong about somethings even, after all Orange Colored glasses and being a snowflake is a full time job.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Well is it 4 (5?) final fours, 3 championship games as well as BE championships and damn good basketball for the past 40+ years? I know we’re not NC, Kentucky or Duke, but after that, well maybe UConn, I don’t see all those teams with multiple NCs under thier belt And fewer by 1 coach, Indiana with Bobby Knight. Some may have gotten there but not one, JB is a top 10 or 15 coach during those 40 years as far as I’m concerned.

I'm Orange colored through and through. And don’t care what anyone thinks, well there are some I care what they think, like my wife. The noise has been the same since he started. They wanted JB fired since day 1 he wasn’t good looking enough, had nose issues (like most of us from CNY), wasn’t suave like Ricky P. or overpowering like J. Thompson. Can’t recruit despite evidence to the contrary, see Pearl, Ronnie Siekly, Louie, Bouie, sherm, DC, BO, Lawrence Moten, Stevie Thompson, John Wallace, Johnny Flynn, Todd Burgan, Gerry McNamara, DeShaun, QG, Marek, Carmel, and I’ve missed to many to count. Tell me what schools have had more, more wins, more final 4s and more NC and conference championships over that time. Has UCLA, Arizona, Michigan, Ohio St., I don’t see anyone beyond the first 3, well 4 or 5, above that have accomplished any more than SU. Yeah there’s an argument for any of them, but SU is in the argument and not just the last NC game back, right up to today.

JB can’t recruit but Y’all sure are worried about the players we have leaving. Quincy was a good recruit, QR was a good recruit, JG was a good recruit (despite being in the SU doghouse), Griff was a good recruit, jalen Carey was a good recruit, Andre White, Oshae Brisset, Frank Howard, Tyus Battle and so on. All good recruits that got the team to the tourney and many further than what we expected.

and that’s the thing, SU seems to exceed expectations. JB has always done more with less, or seeming less. I’m mean that one NC that seems to lower JBs worth. They were what a 5 seed? How many 5 seeds win NCs, I don’t know. But I know not many.

sure y’all haters of JB have some compelling arguments to a point. Then when I think about the bigger picture I see no difference between now and John Wallace’s time frame, or maybe the year before the NC run when everyone questioned Rony Seikaly and wanted JB fired, why? Well he counldn’t recruit and he was a bad Coach. They used to pick on me when I was in the Navy, even said he was fired and SU had hired John Thompson ( I’m a bit gullible at times) Every coach is bad for someone when he fails to do what they want. But there’s always next year, and many times what doesn’t seem so great becomes special. I don’t know what this year with Covid, Sidbe and so on would fit. I do know I will defend JB, might be wrong about somethings even, after all Orange Colored glasses and being a snowflake is a full time job.

So many of those names haven’t played in like decades.

Keep on doing you though

 

[SUGIANT]

So many of those names haven’t played in like decades.

Keep on doing you though

Wasn’t the question, “Why do people defend JB?“ So he’s been here 40 years, sometimes you have to take a higher look at things to see a point, if you don’t understand why I would have players and situations that have occurred over all of his time here to understand why some defend him today. Well I say read some of SWCs post, they’re great. And I don’t know how to be anyone else except me, just like JB.

 

[SUfanNC]

Getting very close. Thanks

I appreciate the information good or bad. I hope you don't leave but understand. Not sure this would help but if I'm giving the information out I say it once and don't get it to a back and forth. The person more than likely is arm chair joe and has no info. If the person had legit info than they mostly likely would not need to argue. Tough spot to always justify

 

[Ceerqqq]

Well is it 4 (5?) final fours, 3 championship games as well as BE championships and damn good basketball for the past 40+ years? I know we’re not NC, Kentucky or Duke, but after that, well maybe UConn, I don’t see all those teams with multiple NCs under thier belt And fewer by 1 coach, Indiana with Bobby Knight. Some may have gotten there but not one, JB is a top 10 or 15 coach during those 40 years as far as I’m concerned.

I'm Orange colored through and through. And don’t care what anyone thinks, well there are some I care what they think, like my wife. The noise has been the same since he started. They wanted JB fired since day 1 he wasn’t good looking enough, had nose issues (like most of us from CNY), wasn’t suave like Ricky P. or overpowering like J. Thompson. Can’t recruit despite evidence to the contrary, see Pearl, Ronnie Siekly, Louie, Bouie, sherm, DC, BO, Lawrence Moten, Stevie Thompson, John Wallace, Johnny Flynn, Todd Burgan, Gerry McNamara, DeShaun, QG, Marek, Carmel, and I’ve missed to many to count. Tell me what schools have had more, more wins, more final 4s and more NC and conference championships over that time. Has UCLA, Arizona, Michigan, Ohio St., I don’t see anyone beyond the first 3, well 4 or 5, above that have accomplished any more than SU. Yeah there’s an argument for any of them, but SU is in the argument and not just the last NC game back, right up to today.

JB can’t recruit but Y’all sure are worried about the players we have leaving. Quincy was a good recruit, QR was a good recruit, JG was a good recruit (despite being in the SU doghouse), Griff was a good recruit, jalen Carey was a good recruit, Andre White, Oshae Brisset, Frank Howard, Tyus Battle and so on. All good recruits that got the team to the tourney and many further than what we expected.

and that’s the thing, SU seems to exceed expectations. JB has always done more with less, or seeming less. I’m mean that one NC that seems to lower JBs worth. They were what a 5 seed? How many 5 seeds win NCs, I don’t know. But I know not many.

sure y’all haters of JB have some compelling arguments to a point. Then when I think about the bigger picture I see no difference between now and John Wallace’s time frame, or maybe the year before the NC run when everyone questioned Rony Seikaly and wanted JB fired, why? Well he counldn’t recruit and he was a bad Coach. They used to pick on me when I was in the Navy, even said he was fired and SU had hired John Thompson ( I’m a bit gullible at times) Every coach is bad for someone when he fails to do what they want. But there’s always next year, and many times what doesn’t seem so great becomes special. I don’t know what this year with Covid, Sidbe and so on would fit. I do know I will defend JB, might be wrong about somethings even, after all Orange Colored glasses and being a snowflake is a full time job.

Of course almost anything that anyone has to say on why Kadary left is pure speculation. It is, in fact, pure open-ended speculation to allege that JB was primarily responsible for the young man leaving the program. No one here has any personal knowledge of their conversations or their relationship or the many variables that came into play.

So while everyone is speculating, let's entertain the possibility that the very people who are condemning Boeheim the loudest were actually the individuals who deserve the greatest share of the blame for Kadary leaving. How so?

Consider that K's decision was based in part on his elevated perception of his value to the team, of his abilities overall. It's one thing to note his potential, which everyone including Boeheim could see, but quite another to state with great emotion that K shudda been starting over Joe, based on his obvious skill set.

Now maybe K thought he should be starting over Joe since day one. But without the chorus of public support for the idea of him starting instead of coming in off the bench per Boeheim's wishes, it might not have ended up like this.

Surely, with his family/supporters reading all the criticism of Boeheim for not starting Kadary and relating their agreement with it to Kadary in person, he may very well have developed an entitled attitude and a feeling of resentment that his greatness wasn't being properly recognized by Boeheim.

All this cuz Boeheim's harshest critics couldn't wait until the end of the season to criticize his coaching. They felt they had enough to condemn his bad coaching in advance, cuz they were sure that he couldn't put together the remarkable ending to the season that he eventually did.

If, in an alternative universe, they had instead remembered how Boeheim had pulled off such development miracles in the past, and had been content to praise the potential they could see in Kadary's game, maybe scratching their heads at why he wasn't starting, but wisely thinking they should withhold judgment until the end of the season to see how things turn out, then maybe Kadary wouldn't have flown the coup.

So yeah, that's all unprovable speculation, but it is no less valid than the speculations of Boeheim's detractors early on which assumed that Boeheim's rotation decisions were making a disaster of the season. (They did not.)

 

[storange]

Why does a guy who has one national championship in 45 years garner such defense from you guys? I don’t get it.

3 National Championship Games
5 Final 4s
8 elite 8s
20 sweet 16s
50 something NCAA wins
If your unhappy with middle of the pack finishes in the ACC the past several years ok, but to try to crap on an absolutely incredible coaching career is just simply wrong. ( numbers are close I did them out of memory)

 

[kirbivore]

 

[MSOrange]

Why does a guy who has one national championship in 45 years garner such defense from you guys? I don’t get it.

He's certainly not above criticism and I wish he would call it quits, but it's also ridiculous to downplay his entire great career like this. Do better VT. Be smarter.

 

[CuseFTW]

Seeing the program decline in it's results has been difficult. Many of us, alums including have at least given some money back through buying tickets or donations. Furthermore, sent a lot of money to a private institution.

I am not sure what is considered the appropriate way to be frustrated with results and performance. Is it to just look at the kids who were recruited and then moved on, failed to meet expectations or were simply bad fits and shrug? I guess I struggle with who to be critical of? Is it just mea culpa for spending money on my alma mater and expecting better?

As a positive optimistic person I am not one to vilify. I do see that there is reasonable justification to question and criticize actions. Doing so to people vs their actions can walk a very fine line and I think it is fair to say that line can be crossed here if not intentionally.

At the end of it I think it is fair to question decisions that seem to make limited sense from former players and analysts alike when they are paired with results that are below par. If the thought is this is done disrespectfully I think that is fair with some of the posts on here if not the fallacy of tone that a message board fails to deploy.

Every team in the country has boosters that donate. How do you think Kentucky alum felt this year? You have every right to not agree with JB, but you would think we went 4-24 with the way this board overreacts. Its embarassing. Were fresh off a S16 appearance.

 

[the villager]

Manny being Manny was ok in Boston and J B being J B should be good in Syracuse.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

He's certainly not above criticism and I wish he would call it quits, but it's also ridiculous to downplay his entire great career like this. Do better VT. Be smarter.

If he wasn’t the oldest coach in the world, I’d probably agree with you. But I simply don’t understand why people fight this hard, using so many damned words, to glorify JB.

Does anyone believe he’s got another title in him as this stage of his career? I don’t. I think the sweet 16 run we just saw is about the best we can expect. For a variety of reasons.

 

[MSOrange]

If he wasn’t the oldest coach in the world, I’d probably agree with you. But I simply don’t understand why people fight this hard, using so many damned words, to glorify JB.

Does anyone believe he’s got another title in him as this stage of his career? I don’t. I think the sweet 16 run we just saw is about the best we can expect. For a variety of reasons.

I completely agree. I think his best years are behind him and I wish he would call it a career and I said as much in my response. But again- that's no reason to downgrade his entire career with the silly 1 national title in 45 years. You're better than that.

 

[NateW]

I completely agree. I think his best years are behind him and I wish he would call it a career and I said as much in my response. But again- that's no reason to downgrade his entire career with the silly 1 national title in 45 years. You're better than that.

He’s not actually.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I completely agree. I think his best years are behind him and I wish he would call it a career and I said as much in my response. But again- that's no reason to downgrade his entire career with the silly 1 national title in 45 years. You're better than that.

I’m really not. I’m of the opinion that one title and two sets of ncaa sanctions are his legacy and should have ended his career years ago. Allowing him to continue because he used to be a great coach and occasionally gets his team to peak at the end of the season is detrimental to the future of SU hoops.

 

[Orangezoo]

Every team in the country has boosters that donate. How do you think Kentucky alum felt this year? You have every right to not agree with JB, but you would think we went 4-24 with the way this board overreacts. Its embarassing. Were fresh off a S16 appearance.

It's a culmination of the last 6 seasons and the trajectory of the program. Our last two Sweet 16s were built on the back of a fortuitous bid getting into the field and some individual heroics to win once in the tourney paired with some teams struggling with the zone. The bottom line tourney result is respectful but getting there has always been about a once great program still having a little left in the tank every year to be a nuisance in the tourney. I don't argue with good results or the effort to make the move to get there. Both runs were great.

That said if fans are truly thrilled and happy to be a bubble team who is very well set to win a couple games every tourney then so be it. That is saying we are grateful to not suck and still be relevant enough come tourney time. It is in many ways saying we are ok being more like the program JB took over at the beginning of his career than the program he built into a blue blood.

It's an exhaustive narrative and it is just as exhausting to here the constant stuff about us crashing and burning as it is fans parenting other fans about being haters or disrespectful and not acknowledging how they feel that the program would never be led or pushed the wrong direction by the man that built it.

We all will continue to try and enjoy hoops in our own way. I have accepted it alongside Alsacs thread for reference that we are at least a team that will not end up staring at a losing season or total irrelevance even if we won't be name with a number next to it in the regular season for a while. Enjoy we aren't BC or Rutgers.

 

[Shenexon]

I get pretty puzzled by the endless JB bashing. It's been the worst year for normal human life since world war II and somehow he's a prime focus of anger. I've been expecting his retirement for a long time, but I'm not pushing for it. That time is approaching no matter what else happens. He's a unique guy that I've enjoyed as human and coach. This transfer portal isn't his fault, moving to the ACC wasn't his fault, and parity in college basketball isn't his fault. #@*! happens.

Moving to the ACC was a business decision to make money for the university. It's working, but it hasn't helped men's basketball or football succeed to the same level we saw during our time in the Big East. We helped create the Big East and thrived in basketball as a result. It was a grand era that we have yet to repeat in the ACC. That's not all on JB or any other coach. We changed the dynamic and are experiencing our just rewards.

Prior to JB's time as coach, John Wooden and UCLA dominated college basketball for a generation. That era is long gone as is our run in the Big East. We're in a different era than either Wooden's or JB's best teams. There are a lot of good players and teams and it shows. Parity is real and makes it harder to win in the tournament and along the way. BTW, I think JB would have had the championship in '87 if not for missed free throws. Those weren't his fault either (and I'm still ticked off about it).

I'm not sure who disgruntled fans see as our savior from the "mediocrity" of the JB era. He's the most competitive human with which I'm familiar. He's stayed at the same place all of his life, in an era when most people change jobs multiple times in their lives. He's watched more basketball than most of the rest of us combined and certainly knows the game better than most of his detractors. Yes, it's taken 45 years for him to amass the stats that he has but few coaches will ever match his numbers no matter how many years they coach.

He's an SU fan first and foremost. So am I. I'd like to win championships, both ACC and NCAA, and am disappointed we haven't done better in the ACC than we have. My disappointment is also not his fault. The next coach will face the same struggles that SU has had during JB's era with no certainty of success. Consistent winning is a long process. I look forward to the next great SU coach but don't want to wish away JB's time just yet. He still has work to do if he still wants to take it on. I'd have retired long ago if I were him, but that's one (tiny) reason he's a HOF coach and I'm not.

JB will be gone soon enough and the search will be on to find a coach that doesn't share his faults. But neither will the new coach share all his strengths. It's not really for me to say when he should retire. I've benefitted from his long career and hope to see more great things before he's done. SU is a great basketball program and has thrived under him. Perhaps a new coach will figure things out quickly and attract 5*'s in mass. But perhaps a new coach will struggle for a bit until they figure it out and SU fans will have to deal with the losing seasons most other programs go through. Can SU fans accept losing? I'm thinking not...

 

[721Comstock]

Given the unprecedented nature of this past season, I'm absolutely not calling for JB's departure.

Now - it is VERY frustrating that some of the "controllables"
(like Kadary vs. Joe's minutes, Jesse & Bras getting more run sooner, Woody going onto a milk carton after a promising start) -
were not "controlled" in a manner that most players, fans, former players, etc. were happy with.


But at the end of the day, the team improved, we had another winning season, a pretty solid ACCT showing, and then a nice run in the NCAA's.

Meanwhile, storied Blue Blood programs like Kentucky, Duke, etc. sucked wind this year.

The chances of ADJW firing JAB coming off of a year like that, is: