Class of 2016 LB Taylor Riggins (NY) Verbal to UMass

[jr4750]

I can tell you Sadiq Palmer's coach wasn't happy with the way the pulling of his scholarship was handled either, despite how it was spun in the paper.

I'll truly never understand how this happens, quite frankly. Unless the coach is just ticked cause he doesn't have a player going P5 and is pushing an agenda, it doesn't take a lot of effort to sit down with the kid, or at the very least give him a call and let him know the situation. It's freaking football. These coaches aren't that busy that they can't make sure they are up front and don't burn bridges. If we are to believe this board, we let Riggins, Scott, Palmer, etc., dangle in the wind for weeks. Now if I'm the kid, I'm calling everyday to ask what my status is, but as representatives of the University, and as decent human beings, they need to be up front. It's BS.

 

[orangenauburn]

We fought hard. Time to move on. Just hope Cuse coaches know they are missing out on a quality player and person. He went through alot to stay committed. He wanted to be Orange so he could battle for his home state. I thought those were the type of kids we wanted. Good luck getting other

kids are told ... now maybe they do not communicate it to their parents or coaches the same way it was communicated to them, but you almost always only hear one side of the story (never the schools or coaches).

 

[money3189]

Some of you guys wont get it if you dont coach or are not involved in recruiting. I consult prospects so its a little more personal to me. I talked to Taylor and his dad throughout this process. Why do you think he was on this forum at one point? These are people, not just numbers. What if your kid was going through this? And the coaches were rude to you and hung up the phone on you when you were trying to make a claim for your kid. Its all about realtionships. HS coaches remember that when you try to come back to recruit the big fish ( which we all know is not often). But dont wonder why they never give SU a chance because you already know the answer. Thats why the Jones's didnt go to Syracuse. Im good friends with their dad, he coached with me. Ive worked with his boys in the off seasons with training. I tried to steer them to Cuse. they didnt want to go because of the bad stories about the coaches, because of how their brother Matt was treated after he didnt qualify for Cuse. I'm constantly trying to justify the coaches actions to coaches and players. The hate is building up. Some of you are only looking at it from a fan prospective. You dont want your own state not supporting the only relevant D1 team. Thats bad for football. There's no debating that. No one is asking them to grab multiple NY prospects. Just 1. Shafer grabbed atleast 1 per year. Tell me what other state that has a D1 program who doesnt have atleast one commit from their own state? You know how much of a slap in the face that is to coaches in players in NYS? I have to explain to people why SU doesnt have not 1 NYS/NYC recruit this year. Lol if you think AQ is the only team in NY that dont support SU.

 

[money3189]

When was Aquinas ever happy with SU?

Never and never will be. If you think thats good for NYS football then I dont know what to tell you.

 

[money3189]

Am I missing something. The kid didn't fit the system. He wouldn't have played here. we release him so he can play somewhere. As far as I'm concerned you can't build a team with ny talent anymore. The kids are playing against inferior talent, and play less games and have less practices then anywhere else. more times then not the ny kids just don't stack up against other kids in the country. Lastly when was the last time aq sent us a kid that was good. Whatever if aq is upset then so be it. Dino will be in Florida and the rest of the country looking for kids that fit his system and play in a high school with far superior talent then anything up here. If anything aq and riggins should be mad at nys for watering down football.

Who's is saying we should build the team with NY players? Dont think that team could compete either lol. Again its not just Aquinas.

 

[orangenauburn]

Some of you guys wont get it if you dont coach or are not involved in recruiting. I consult prospects so its a little more personal to me. I talked to Taylor and his dad throughout this process. Why do you think he was on this forum at one point? These are people, not just numbers. What if your kid was going through this? And the coaches where rude to you and hung up the phone on you when you were trying to make a claim for your kid. Its all about realtionships. HS coaches remember that when you try to come back to recruit the big fish ( which we all know is not often). But dont wonder why they never give SU a chance because you will already know the answer. Thats why the Jones's didnt go to Syracuse. Im good friends with their dad, he coached with me. Ive worked with his boys in the off seasons with training. I tried to steer them to Cuse. they didnt want to go because of the bad stories about the coaches, because of how their brother Matt was treated after he didnt qualify for Cuse. I'm constantly trying to justify the coaches actions to coaches and players. The hate it building up. Some of you are only looking at it from a fan prospective. You dont wont your own state not supporting the only relevant D1 team. Thats bad for football. There's no debating that. No one is asking them to grab multiple NY prospects. Just 1. Shafer grabbed atleast 1 per year. Tell me what other state that has a D1 program who doesnt have atleast one commit from their own state? You know how much of a slap in the face that is to coaches in players in NYS? I have to explain to people why SU doesnt have not 1 NYS/NYC recruit this year. Lol if you think AQ is the only team in NY that dont support SU.

Money - you are a terrific poster, but here is my take and I could be WAY off base on this:

SU has tried for fifteen years to 'build relations' with coaches AND handlers in NY and NJ ... outside Marrone with Anselmo, what has it gotten us? The top prospects in the state will not even look at SU. BUT, and I mean BUT - you bet your ass that if SU starts winning 8 - 9 games a year again on a consistent basis these coaches and handlers will be more receptive to the program in terms of top kids with multiple P5 offers. They want their ass kissed and then for SU to take their flyer kids 'to establish a relationship and trust' and be grateful for that. BULLSPIT - it goes both ways. You are right ... AQ has never been an SU feeder, and never will - because they send their top kids to ND and Penn State ... so if they get their panties in a bunch because a new staff did not feel a prospect fit what they want or that the prospect might have a limitation due to injury, tough noogies. SU has held conventions and meetings and conferences with coaches and programs throughout the state and region for years ... how much more ass kissing do they want? They get comped tickets, provided great training and insights, access to techniques and strategy that brings these HS coaches and their programs to a higher level - but thats not enough. We got to buy them dinner, take them to a movie, and then get blue balls in the end when the top tier kids go to prom with SEC and B10 teams. But hey, we should be grateful just to get the chance to woo their ugly kid sister, right?

I feel bad for Taylor Riggins, and his family - but he will land on his feet playing college ball for free elsewhere. I do not feel bad for the coaches and handlers who get 'offended' when they are told no thank you.

Can this staff (hell, all staffs) do a better job of communicating - yes ... but sometimes they are hamstrung by the NCAA rules of contact.

End rant.

 

[jr4750]

Some of you guys wont get it if you dont coach or are not involved in recruiting. I consult prospects so its a little more personal to me. I talked to Taylor and his dad throughout this process. Why do you think he was on this forum at one point? These are people, not just numbers. What if your kid was going through this? And the coaches were rude to you and hung up the phone on you when you were trying to make a claim for your kid. Its all about realtionships. HS coaches remember that when you try to come back to recruit the big fish ( which we all know is not often). But dont wonder why they never give SU a chance because you will already know the answer. Thats why the Jones's didnt go to Syracuse. Im good friends with their dad, he coached with me. Ive worked with his boys in the off seasons with training. I tried to steer them to Cuse. they didnt want to go because of the bad stories about the coaches, because of how their brother Matt was treated after he didnt qualify for Cuse. I'm constantly trying to justify the coaches actions to coaches and players. The hate is building up. Some of you are only looking at it from a fan prospective. You dont wont your own state not supporting the only relevant D1 team. Thats bad for football. There's no debating that. No one is asking them to grab multiple NY prospects. Just 1. Shafer grabbed atleast 1 per year. Tell me what other state that has a D1 program who doesnt have atleast one commit from their own state? You know how much of a slap in the face that is to coaches in players in NYS? I have to explain to people why SU doesnt have not 1 NYS/NYC recruit this year. Lol if you think AQ is the only team in NY that dont support SU.

Well said Money. Dino is an outsider. Had never even been to NY really, minus one game I think against Buffalo. In a manner of fate, NYS is not a football hotbed, but Syracuse will always be a regional school dependent on regional students. Need local stakeholders. Only way to truly build a foundation. Perhaps if we start winning we can get back in the good graces of some of these coaches, but I agree its a dangerous game they are playing.

 

[money3189]

How's his knee?

I want NY players as much as the next guy but it's not like Aquinas does Syracuse any favors with their A List players. Zembiac is going to play for a bunch of child molesters. and the Jones brothers? Come on Money, Aquinus won't be happy is a joke. They can keep on doing what they're doing. It's not Syracuse's job to float their B kids.

It's unfortunate Riggins tore up his knee this year. I assume that's what kept recruiters away. Best of luck to him. He was my favor shafer recruit.

Its hard to understand if you dont know the behind the scenes relationships between Cuse and NYS H.S programs. Its not just AQ. There are many programs that feel the same. People/coaches in the area not liking their state team is a joke. Not filling up the Dome consistently is a Joke. Other teams struggle but they still have people in the stands. I can tell you right now Taylor can play. He is alot better than some kids Marrone and Shafer brought in from NY. The problem was he didnt have film at LB, was camp standout and commit with the old staff, and he didnt have a relationship with the coaches. The system fit is a excuse. Couple of years ago, I had to explain to one of my players why he couldnt commit to Rutgers. So I know how this works. I had to expalin to the Taylor's dad how this works. Doesnt mean they are happy about it. It's the business of recruiting.

 

[TheCusian]

Well said Money. Dino is an outsider. Had never even been to NY really, minus one game I think against Buffalo. In a manner of fate, NYS is not a football hotbed, but Syracuse will always be a regional school dependent on regional students. Need local stakeholders. Only way to truly build a foundation. Perhaps if we start winning we can get back in the good graces of some of these coaches, but I agree its a dangerous game they are playing.

One kid who did not fit isn't a dangerous game. The staff is scrambling late and trying find kids who fit. They don't have a lot of NY connections to lean on and it's not like Shafer was bringing in a ton of NY kids this year either.

When we start scoring 40 pts a game and filling the dome, the kids will pay attention. Old grievances (previous staff and AD) will look old.

Babers will find time to build relationships locally. There's plenty of time to do so.

 

[TheCusian]

Its hard to understand if you dont know the behind the scenes relationships between Cuse and NYS H.S programs. Its not just AQ. There are many programs that feel the same. People/coaches in the area not liking their state team is a joke. Not filling up the Dome consistently is a Joke. Other teams struggle but they still have people in the stands. I can tell you right now Taylor can play. He is alot better than some kids Marrone and Shafer brought in from NY. The problem was he didnt have film at LB, was camp standout and commit with the old staff, and he didnt have a relationship with the coaches. The system fit is a excuse. Couple of years ago, I had to explain to one of my players why he couldnt commit to Rutgers. So I know how this works. I had to expalin to the Taylor's dad how this works. Doesnt mean they are happy about it. It's the business of recruiting.

Who is left to have beef with? New staff, new AD, new Chancellor, new secretaries, new compliance staff...

Sounds like programs need to take a deep breath and start fresh - just like the fans have.

 

[PhatOrange]

Its hard to understand if you dont know the behind the scenes relationships between Cuse and NYS H.S programs. Its not just AQ. There are many programs that feel the same. People/coaches in the area not liking their state team is a joke. Not filling up the Dome consistently is a Joke. Other teams struggle but they still have people in the stands. I can tell you right now Taylor can play. He is alot better than some kids Marrone and Shafer brought in from NY. The problem was he didnt have film at LB, was camp standout and commit with the old staff, and he didnt have a relationship with the coaches. The system fit is a excuse. Couple of years ago, I had to explain to one of my players why he couldnt commit to Rutgers. So I know how this works. I had to expalin to the Taylor's dad how this works. Doesnt mean they are happy about it. It's the business of recruiting.

Like I said I loved Riggins and I LOVE camp kids. But we don't owe Aquinas anything. Maybe if they sent us Zembiac we'd take a kid like Edwards. :noidea:. Works both ways.

 

[money3189]

Money - you are a terrific poster, but here is my take and I could be WAY off base on this:

SU has tried for fifteen years to 'build relations' with coaches AND handlers in NY and NJ ... outside Marrone with Anselmo, what has it gotten us? The top prospects in the state will not even look at SU. BUT, and I mean BUT - you bet your ass that if SU starts winning 8 - 9 games a year again on a consistent basis these coaches and handlers will be more receptive to the program in terms of top kids with multiple P5 offers. They want their ass kissed and then for SU to take their flyer kids 'to establish a relationship and trust' and be grateful for that. BULLSPIT - it goes both ways. You are right ... AQ has never been an SU feeder, and never will - because they send their top kids to ND and Penn State ... so if they get their panties in a bunch because a new staff did not feel a prospect fit what they want or that the prospect might have a limitation due to injury, tough noogies. SU has held conventions and meetings and conferences with coaches and programs throughout the state and region for years ... how much more ass kissing do they want? They get comped tickets, provided great training and insights, access to techniques and strategy that brings these HS coaches and their programs to a higher level - but thats not enough. We got to buy them dinner, take them to a movie, and then get blue balls in the end when the top tier kids go to prom with SEC and B10 teams. But hey, we should be grateful just to get the chance to woo their ugly kid sister, right?

I feel bad for Taylor Riggins, and his family - but he will land on his feet playing college ball for free elsewhere. I do not feel bad for the coaches and handlers who get 'offended' when they are told no thank you.

Can this staff (hell, all staffs) do a better job of communicating - yes ... but sometimes they are hamstrung by the NCAA rules of contact.

End rant.

Alot of if's in there. You have some good points but the problem is that SU hasnt been good in a long time. Marrone years were respectable but not great. BTW, Marrone won with NY and PA players no one wanted. ( Nassib and Jones are in the NFL still ). I think most coaches and players will feel exactly how you feel if they were winning. That's the difference. Start winning more than 4 games. If they start winning I will jump on board with this same mindset. its not ass kissing its called building relationships. Shafer will call me about a particular player and I would say Yah or Nay because he trusted me. He knew he had to grab 1 or 2 NY kids that he could develop. Despite the lack of talent hear he knew he had to grab some. Again We are not asking for the roster to be more than 1o % of NY kids.

 

[SUFan44]

Its hard to understand if you dont know the behind the scenes relationships between Cuse and NYS H.S programs. Its not just AQ. There are many programs that feel the same. People/coaches in the area not liking their state team is a joke. Not filling up the Dome consistently is a Joke. Other teams struggle but they still have people in the stands. I can tell you right now Taylor can play. He is alot better than some kids Marrone and Shafer brought in from NY. The problem was he didnt have film at LB, was camp standout and commit with the old staff, and he didnt have a relationship with the coaches. The system fit is a excuse. Couple of years ago, I had to explain to one of my players why he couldnt commit to Rutgers. So I know how this works. I had to expalin to the Taylor's dad how this works. Doesnt mean they are happy about it. It's the business of recruiting.

This is nothing new with upstate kids. Who was the last Rochester kid Syracuse got that was any good? Let's be honest. Mo Jackson? Roland Williams? That was 17 years ago. Ashton Broyld came but he A) wasn't qualified out of HS, B) never panned out (QB debate is open if you'd like). Averin Collier was a bust (due to various reasons). The only other WNY kid that came that was very good in the last decade or so was Mike Williams, and he was a ton of fun and bunches of good times, wasn't he?

Let's take a look at it from the other side of the coin - why should Syracuse use resources (time being the most precious needed with Rochester/WNY kids) when they can find comparable talent in other areas? And what is the commonality with this story? If it was one or two coaches I'd say maybe it was their fault, but this is a third coach and the story is still the same.

Listen, I don't know the full story about Riggins - every case is different. And I understand you are close to the situation and have a vast knowledge about Rochester area football. But based on what I know about the history of Syracuse football with Rochester HS coaches (and I'll throw Buffalo in there as well), I don't blame them for looking elsewhere.

To use a different perspective, do you think a big HS in Alabama that is 90 miles away from Tuscaloosa would tell their best recruits to go to Georgia or Texas? Or steer their best kids clear of the school that is the closest to them, yet get offended when they didn't bite on the project or the kid that is a little less heavily recruited than the best kids? I would tell them to kick rocks. Just because Syracuse hasn't been good doesn't make either side right or wrong in this whole thing. It is what it is. Wish it wasn't that way, but this is nothing new.

 

[money3189]

Like I said I loved Riggins and I LOVE camp kids. But we don't owe Aquinas anything. Maybe if they sent us Zembiac we'd take a kid like Edwards. :noidea:. Works both ways.

Your absolutely right SU doesnt owe NYS HS teams anything. And yes your right it works both ways. You really think thats healthy for NY football though?

 

[OrangeXtreme]

 

[money3189]

This is nothing new with upstate kids. Who was the last Rochester kid Syracuse got that was any good? Let's be honest. Mo Jackson? Roland Williams? That was 17 years ago. Ashton Broyld came but he A) wasn't qualified out of HS, B) never panned out (QB debate is open if you'd like). Averin Collier was a bust (due to various reasons). The only other WNY kid that came that was very good in the last decade or so was Mike Williams, and he was a ton of fun and bunches of good times, wasn't he?

Let's take a look at it from the other side of the coin - why should Syracuse use resources (time being the most precious needed with Rochester/WNY kids) when they can find comparable talent in other areas? And what is the commonality with this story? If it was one or two coaches I'd say maybe it was their fault, but this is a third coach and the story is still the same.

Listen, I don't know the full story about Riggins - every case is different. And I understand you are close to the situation and have a vast knowledge about Rochester area football. But based on what I know about the history of Syracuse football with Rochester HS coaches (and I'll throw Buffalo in there as well), I don't blame them for looking elsewhere.

To use a different perspective, do you think a big HS in Alabama that is 90 miles away from Tuscaloosa would tell their best recruits to go to Georgia or Texas? Or steer their best kids clear of the school that is the closest to them, yet get offended when they didn't bite on the project or the kid that is a little less heavily recruited than the best kids? I would tell them to kick rocks. Just because Syracuse hasn't been good doesn't make either side right or wrong in this whole thing. It is what it is. Wish it wasn't that way, but this is nothing new.

thats the wrong debate. Im not saying NY prospects are the biggest impact players on the team. lol its obvious that their not. If you dont constantly connect with NYS HS coaches then your not gonna understand. the attitudes of people I talk to. You are not at coaching clinic hearing discussions of how people will never send their kids to SU and how I have give them reason why they should. Resources? lol, Wheatley/ Bullough use to come and chat with me all the time. It takes no resources. You dont have to get our players, you have to make coaches believe you will and that you value them atleast. Doesnt take much. Its a hour and half away. Dont know why you feel that it does.

 

[jr4750]

One kid who did not fit isn't a dangerous game. The staff is scrambling late and trying find kids who fit. They don't have a lot of NY connections to lean on and it's not like Shafer was bringing in a ton of NY kids this year either.

When we start scoring 40 pts a game and filling the dome, the kids will pay attention. Old grievances (previous staff and AD) will look old.

Babers will find time to build relationships locally. There's plenty of time to do so.

I think the key is that it is one kid, and we have plenty of room at the inn. Tough to say he doesn't fit as his intangibles are very close to the LB who just committed. That said, maybe you're right. I am also in no way an ally of the coaches at AQ, but if its a toss up between having them on your side or not, I think we should work in the positive.

 

[Statesman1]

Never and never will be. If you think thats good for NYS football then I dont know what to tell you.

Huh? Who said anything about what's good for NYS football? That's not my primary concern as an SU fan anyway, but I wish SU had a pipeline to Aquinas but that's not been the case since my fandom of SU began as a kid growing up in Syracuse or in the 20 years I've lived in Rochester. Never and Never is a long time- I'm not privy to the reasons for the lack of top players making their way to the Hill from AQ but I'd like to see that changed. Who knows, maybe Babers gets us turned around and the perception of our program changes too and we turn into the place to be agin. I'm not sure if I'm a high school coach it's all that fair to hold it against a program if a new staff doesn't honor a prior staffs offer, either- thems the breaks sometime and life isn't fair. Kids have the right to change their mind and so do coaching staffs.

 

[money3189]

Elgin could have said worse things to the reporters but I advised him not to. They were really harsh with their words to him. This is a good family. Its hard for me to imagine he's lying. I will talk to the new staff in a couple of weeks to get there side of it.

 

[SUFan44]

thats the wrong debate. Im not saying NY prospects are the biggest impact players on the team. lol its obvious that their not. If you dont constantly connect with NYS HS coaches then your not gonna understand. the attitudes of people I talk to. You are not at coaching clinic hearing discussions of how people will never send their kids to SU and how I have give them reason why they should. Resources? lol, Wheatley/ Bullough use to come and chat with me all the time. It takes no resources. You dont have to get our players, you have to make coaches believe you will and that you value them atleast. Doesnt take much. Its a hour and half away. Dont know why you feel that it does.

So my question to you is this - we are now on the 3rd head coach (edit: 4th) at Syracuse since Coach Pasqualoni, and not one of them has made a positive impact on the impression that Rochester coaches have on Syracuse football. Why do you think that is?

 

[RF2044]

Alot of if's in there. You have some good points but the problem is that SU hasnt been good in a long time. Marrone years were respectable but not great. BTW, Marrone won with NY and PA players no one wanted. ( Nassib and Jones are in the NFL still ). I think most coaches and players will feel exactly how you feel if they were winning. That's the difference. Start winning more than 4 games. If they start winning I will jump on board with this same mindset. its not ass kissing its called building relationships. Shafer will call me about a particular player and I would say Yah or Nay because he trusted me. He knew he had to grab 1 or 2 NY kids that he could develop. Despite the lack of talent hear he knew he had to grab some. Again We are not asking for the roster to be more than 1o % of NY kids.

Money, you and I have communicated offline numerous times in the past, and you know that I'm a big fan of your contributions to this forum.

I'm also sorry for Riggins, and for you given your personal involvement in the situation. Must suck being a kid who "earned" a scholarship from a camp and had his heart set for months to attend SU, only to have that taken away from him at the 11th hour. I'm glad he landed on his feet elsewhere.

Those qualifications aside, I don't resonate with some of your points. We've been down and a losing program for a LONG time. IMO, that's been as big if not the biggest factor with many of these in region high school programs as anything the coaches have done or did not do. Sure, personal relationships are important--but so is winning.

You say "start winning more than 4 games." If Babers does that, then a lot of this sentiment will go away, because kids want to play for winners. They want to be part of an exciting offense that scores a lot of points and goes to bowl games. Babers will bring that, and if he doesn't, then he won't be here long.

Additionally, I think it is great that SU hired an African-American coach, a group totally underserved at the head coaching level in college football. It shows we're progressive. Hiring a proven head coach with a track record of success shows we're serious, and finally committed to winning football. Once the wins start, the attention will follow--and will trump negative feelings over 1 or 2 prospects here and there.

It is amazing to me that an entire generation of NYS people have grown up without knowing success at SU, or understanding that we were once a perennial power. When I was a kid, my fandom of SU sports grew at a time when the program stopped stinking and became one of the better teams in college football for a sustained period, with an exciting, highly recognizable style of play. I'm definitely concerned that the 16 years of generally sucking [with few exceptions] has done damage--but I'm far more concerned about that than I am word of mouth bad feelings over a recruiting prospect who didn't end up here.

Winning cures all. I honestly believe that. Because if Babers starts to win at a high level, and the AQ coaches still won't give us the time of day, then to hell with them. As others have stated, they don't send their top prospects here anyway.

Again, sorry that someone you know got impacted in all of this. I do feel bad for Riggins, I honestly do.

 

[RF2044]

Elgin could have said worse things to the reporters but I advised him not to. They were really harsh with their words to him. This is a good family. Its hard for me to imagine he's lying. I will talk to the new staff in a couple of weeks to get there side of it.

That is very disappointing to learn / hear. Under the circumstances, that sounds really unnecessary and harsh.

 

[Finwad32]

Some of the opinions on here astound me.

 

[money3189]

Huh? Who said anything about what's good for NYS football? That's not my primary concern as an SU fan anyway, but I wish SU had a pipeline to Aquinas but that's not been the case since my fandom of SU began as a kid growing up in Syracuse or in the 20 years I've lived in Rochester. Never and Never is a long time- I'm not privy to the reasons for the lack of top players making their way to the Hill from AQ but I'd like to see that changed. Who knows, maybe Babers gets us turned around and the perception of our program changes too and we turn into the place to be agin. I'm not sure if I'm a high school coach it's all that fair to hold it against a program if a new staff doesn't honor a prior staffs offer, either- thems the breaks sometime and life isn't fair. Kids have the right to change their mind and so do coaching staffs.

Absolutely, Again we all know how this works. They did what they felt was best. The problem is how they did it.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Elgin could have said worse things to the reporters but I advised him not to. They were really harsh with their words to him. This is a good family. Its hard for me to imagine he's lying. I will talk to the new staff in a couple of weeks to get there side of it.

Sounds like Shafer liked the kid, and Babers didn't. Unfortunately, there's no good way to give a kid and his parents the bad news. Anything the staff says will seem harsh.

It's not like Riggins was singled out. 9 other recruits were encouraged by the new staff to move on.

Remember that Marrone only kept Lemon, Pugh and Phillips from GRob's last recruiting class. Nature of the beast.