Lebron is a

[Guinness]

LeBron told Sports Illustrated to put him on the cover with the headline "The Chosen One" as a 17 year old kid?

Did the cover come before or after the tatoo?

 

[Ward]

Did the cover come before or after the tatoo?

I'm guessing before as he wasn't too tatted up when he was in high school.

Magic was given the name by a sportswriter in HS. With that said, he then won a college national title and in his rookie year won an NBA title and was the Finals MVP. He played both guard AND center in game 6 of the Finals and went 42 pts, 15 boards, 7 assists and 3 steals. He earned the right to keep that nickname

Agree 100% he earned it, thought I made it clear the Magic comment was a joke. Tough comparison as LeBron never went to college so didn't have a chance and Magic and LeBron's situation and supporting cast were not nearly the same their rookie years or any year before last to be honest. Irrelevant tho for my point I'm trying to make.

It's not fair to compare players who have retired and take their entire body of work and compare it to an uncompleted body of work. I mean look at how much has changed in how people will remember Garnett, Dirk, Gasol, Kobe, Pierce, heck even Jason Terry from just the last 4-5 years. LeBron's entering his prime now (27-31) let's just see what he can do and then compare when he's all done.

 

[strumpfasaurus]

I can't imagine Lebron not winning a ring eventually with the team he has around him. I think his ceiling is higher than any of the other greats but don't think hell ever reach his celing. By that I mean the dude is a freak physically unreal. He just doesn't have the clutch gene and I think he's accepted it and will defer to wade in crunch time I think it's fair to criticize him for this but in comparison to the rest of his game, this is analyzed WAY too much.

 

[Ghost]

Man, you nailed it. It's the ESPN/internet culture. We build you up to nitpick your greatness and bring you down. Can you imagine if Lebron had done some of the things Kobe has done off the court? You would think Lebron's decision show was worse than raping a woman in a hotel room. Its all you would hear about. NBA basketball has basically become Golf...people only tune in for Lebron (Speaking about general fans, not fans of particular teams).

I don't think it's nitpicking. The truly GREAT players have always been held to a higher standard on the court - and at the biggest moments the light shines the brightest. It's nothing new even with the internet culture. Dave Winfield with the Mr. May, Reggie with Mr. October, it's always been there in every sport.

Jordan, Bird, etc...they all make their names in the biggest moments. LeBron shies away from it - always has. Does he have a few of those moments, yes, but he also has shown a propensity for dishing when people EXPECT the great ones to take the shot - make or miss. People don't really remember the misses, but they would remember if they turned those shots down.

He's by far the best player in the NBA, no doubt. He'll probably (should at least) win some championships, so eventually it probably all gets forgotten anyway.

 

[Guinness]

Lebron = Alex Rodriguez

 

[Knicks411]

I don't think it's nitpicking. The truly GREAT players have always been held to a higher standard on the court - and at the biggest moments the light shines the brightest. It's nothing new even with the internet culture. Dave Winfield with the Mr. May, Reggie with Mr. October, it's always been there in every sport.

Jordan, Bird, etc...they all make their names in the biggest moments. LeBron shies away from it - always has. Does he have a few of those moments, yes, but he also has shown a propensity for dishing when people EXPECT the great ones to take the shot - make or miss. People don't really remember the misses, but they would remember if they turned those shots down.

He's by far the best player in the NBA, no doubt. He'll probably (should at least) win some championships, so eventually it probably all gets forgotten anyway.

One thing I will say is that everything is analyzed a lot more now. Every game is on tv, every play is analyzed 50 or 100 times.

Even when Bird was playing, very few of his games were on national tv; it isn't like you could see him play every night. Now, everything Lebron does is seen by everyone, played back, analyzed, etc.

(That isn't so much meant as of defense of Lebron as simply an observation).

And as I said before, I don't think dishing off is a bad thing; it's all about how it is done. I don't think it is necessarily the responsibility of the best player to always take the shot at the end of the game or whatever, it's the responsibility of the best player to make the play. That could be a shot, but with a guy who is so gifted as a passer as Lebron, that could be hitting the open man. Or, it could be sutting down the other teams best player on defense. Whatever it is, it isn't passing the ball off right away and then standing in the corner like Steve Novak. Lebron was not doing that in the finals last year. (And as I've said, he was doing that in the eastern conference finals, which is what is so weird).

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

You know Lebron is great because anytime his name is mentioned, the thread is one of the most active on a Syracuse forum. His threads get more action than a Carmelo thread. Crazy what a lightning rod he is.

 

[Guinness]

You know Lebron is great because anytime his name is mentioned, the thread is one of the most active on a Syracuse forum. His threads get more action than a Carmelo thread. Crazy what a lightning rod he is.

By that logic Tebow is great.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Lebron = Alex Rodriguez

Absolutely. Physically built for the sport, mentally not there, will need Wade and Riley to drag him over the finish line to a championship like Rodriguez needed Jeter and Rivera.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Absolutely. Physically built for the sport, mentally not there, will need Wade and Riley to drag him over the finish line to a championship like Rodriguez needed Jeter and Rivera.

He led the Yankees in the 2009 postseason with a .365 average, six homers, 18 RBIs, 15 runs and 12 walks. I'd say he contributed to that title.

I know we love to hate the best, but I think a shred of credit might be due..

 

[Knicks411]

Absolutely. Physically built for the sport, mentally not there, will need Wade and Riley to drag him over the finish line to a championship like Rodriguez needed Jeter and Rivera.

Wasn't Arod awesome in that playoffs?

Different sports, anyway. A baseball player can only do so much.

Just looked up the stats, Arod was pretty good in the world series, 973 OPS. 947 for Jeter. It was the LCS, Arod was incredible there, 1500 OPS (think that included a game tying HR in the 9th or something off Brian Fuentes? Sound right? )

He is definitely like A-Rod in the sense that even if he plays awesome in the finals and leads his team to victory, it will be credited to other people.

 

[Eric15]

Lebron = Alex Rodriguez

Freakishly talented, irrationally criticized, and ultimately a champion.

I concur wholeheartedly.

 

[Guinness]

Freakishly talented, irrationally criticized, and ultimately a champion.

I concur wholeheartedly.

Freakishly talented and mentally challenged.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

He led the Yankees in the 2009 postseason with a .365 average, six homers, 18 RBIs, 15 runs and 12 walks. I'd say he contributed to that title.

And if and when Lebron finally gets a title he'll probably have contributed to it too.

The stink is on the guy though. Would you say with A-Rod's contribution to the title the stink that was on him is now gone?

I'm not saying that Lebron's reputation is set in stone, but fair or not he has an uphill battle.

 

[qdawgg]

One thing I will say is that everything is analyzed a lot more now. Every game is on tv, every play is analyzed 50 or 100 times.

Even when Bird was playing, very few of his games were on national tv; it isn't like you could see him play every night. Now, everything Lebron does is seen by everyone, played back, analyzed, etc.

Your placing too much value in TV media compared to print media. Back in the day print media was just as powerful as tv media - potentially more so because of what you stated. People didn't always get a chance to watch all of the games or even see highlights, people hung on to any analysis provided by the writers and media who were actually at the event. If anything, the criticism of Lebron is more justified now because people have the capacity and ability to watch the games, see the replays, and decide for themselves whether he warrants any criticism.

 

[Knicks411]

Your placing too much value in TV media compared to print media. Back in the day print media was just as powerful as tv media - potentially more so because of what you stated. People didn't always get a chance to watch all of the games or even see highlights, people hung on to any analysis provided by the writers and media who were actually at the event. If anything, the criticism of Lebron is more justified now because people have the capacity and ability to watch the games, see the replays, and decide for themselves whether he warrants any criticism.

In the 60's or whatever if you had a guy where a player was passing off a lot late in the game, I would bet a vast majority of the people would have had no idea about it, since the game wasn;t on tv, or it was and it was in tape delay, or whatever.

If there was coverage of games in the 60's and 70's like there is now, I'm sure you could've found games where guys like Wilt or Jerry West were passing the ball off and not taking shots when they "should have"; and you might even have people killing Russell since he wasn't the type of player who would just demand the ball late in games and score. (To the extent that Lebron did in the finals last year, I have a hard time to believe, and in Russell's case, probably not anyway since they won every year). No player is perfect, so in an era where everything gets analyzed a million times, it's a lot easier to find flaws in people's games. When we think of older players, we don't really remember that, it's more just what they accomplished over their entire career.

Hell, there were people in this thread talking about how great Wilt was as one of the top players of all time or whatever, and how he demanded the ball, and he was a guy who has taken a lot of heat for being a choker and always losing to Russell and having Russell in his head. As was Magic Johnson at one point. And I wouldn't be surprised if Kareem was in the late 70's, before Magic showed up. So like I said before, I think as time goes on, you are judged more by your stats and what you accomplished. (And for the record, I think all 3 of those guys are among the 5 or 10 best players of all time).

Like i said, I don't want this to be a defense completely of Lebron; how he played in the finals, particularly the last few games, was really weak. He took 20 foul shots in 6 games; that is nearly inconceivable Granted, that is but one way of looking at things, but Dirk took 46 foul shots in 6 games.

I'm not saying that Lebron's reputation is set in stone, but fair or not he has an uphill battle.

Definitely.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

And if and when Lebron finally gets a title he'll probably have contributed to it too.

The stink is on the guy though. Would you say with A-Rod's contribution to the title the stink that was on him is now gone?

I'm not saying that Lebron's reputation is set in stone, but fair or not he has an uphill battle.

He's got some late game stink on him...but, what player would an NBA GM take over him for the next 5 seasons? He may have an uphill battle to becoming known as one of the top 5 all time, but thats about it... People who get to the big stage a lot, don't always win, unless you are Bill Russell. People only remember the bad moments until you win it all, but Lebron's been very good in the post season as a whole. Once he wins one or two, the bad moments won't be looked at or remembered anymore. Just like what happened with Peyton Manning and others, as they won titles. No one dredges up Kobe's poor post season performances, because he has rings. It will end up the same with Lebron eventually, imo.

 

[Ward]

Why can't people just leave it at he is what he is. He's the best basketball player in the world right now who has yet to win a ring and has showed inconsistent performance in clutch situations.

His legacy will undoubtedly be changed between now and when he retires. No matter how many rings he wins or how many times he "chokes" there will be people who love him and constantly defend him, and people who bash him and always find the flaw in anything he does.

An interesting thought I saw a writer tweet that goes along with this entire thread and LeBrons polarizing image was that the only time the all star game has mattered or been anything more than an exhibition game, is when LeBron made a mistake in the 4th quarter.

Personally, as a guy who loves basketball, I just enjoy watching him play. He's not Jordan, he's not Magic, he's not Kobe, he's LeBron. He's, with fear of getting carried away, a once in a generation if not lifetime overall mix of talent, size, and athleticism. Just enjoy it

 

[SU2NASA]

He led the Yankees in the 2009 postseason with a .365 average, six homers, 18 RBIs, 15 runs and 12 walks. I'd say he contributed to that title.

I know we love to hate the best, but I think a shred of credit might be due..

As a Tigers fan, I love seeing A-Rod in the postseason.

 

[orangecuse]

As a Tigers fan, I love seeing A-Rod in the postseason.

No doubt. Other than his '09 aberration, he has consistently been non productive in the post season...not a ptp'er...clearly one of the most overpaid players in baseball...sports for that matter imho.

 

[orangecuse]

Why can't people just leave it at he is what he is. He's the best basketball player in the world right now who has yet to win a ring and has showed inconsistent performance in clutch situations.

His legacy will undoubtedly be changed between now and when he retires. No matter how many rings he wins or how many times he "chokes" there will be people who love him and constantly defend him, and people who bash him and always find the flaw in anything he does.

An interesting thought I saw a writer tweet that goes along with this entire thread and LeBrons polarizing image was that the only time the all star game has mattered or been anything more than an exhibition game, is when LeBron made a mistake in the 4th quarter.

Personally, as a guy who loves basketball, I just enjoy watching him play. He's not Jordan, he's not Magic, he's not Kobe, he's LeBron. He's, with fear of getting carried away, a once in a generation if not lifetime overall mix of talent, size, and athleticism. Just enjoy it

Well, maybe it's because Mr. self-righteousness proclaimed himself The Chosen One...he has put it all on himself with his poor judgement and narcissistic behavior.

 

[qdawgg]

In the 60's or whatever if you had a guy where a player was passing off a lot late in the game, I would bet a vast majority of the people would have had no idea about it, since the game wasn;t on tv, or it was and it was in tape delay, or whatever.

If there was coverage of games in the 60's and 70's like there is now, I'm sure you could've found games where guys like Wilt or Jerry West were passing the ball off and not taking shots when they "should have"; and you might even have people killing Russell since he wasn't the type of player who would just demand the ball late in games and score. (To the extent that Lebron did in the finals last year, I have a hard time to believe, and in Russell's case, probably not anyway since they won every year). No player is perfect, so in an era where everything gets analyzed a million times, it's a lot easier to find flaws in people's games. When we think of older players, we don't really remember that, it's more just what they accomplished over their entire career.

.

Your making 2 very different arguments here and the only thing that gives them a "connection" to each other is the topic of NBA players, otherwise your blending two different arguments in to one. The first part sort of goes along with the point I was trying to make but I don't think you have a real understanding of society and media through the 20th century - which is fine but your trying to argue something you don't understand as well as using our current time period to help your argument.

 

[MikeSU02]

Why can't people just leave it at he is what he is. He's the best basketball player in the world right now who has yet to win a ring and has showed inconsistent performance in clutch situations.

His legacy will undoubtedly be changed between now and when he retires. No matter how many rings he wins or how many times he "chokes" there will be people who love him and constantly defend him, and people who bash him and always find the flaw in anything he does.

An interesting thought I saw a writer tweet that goes along with this entire thread and LeBrons polarizing image was that the only time the all star game has mattered or been anything more than an exhibition game, is when LeBron made a mistake in the 4th quarter.

Personally, as a guy who loves basketball, I just enjoy watching him play. He's not Jordan, he's not Magic, he's not Kobe, he's LeBron. He's, with fear of getting carried away, a once in a generation if not lifetime overall mix of talent, size, and athleticism. Just enjoy it

A few quibbiles:

It is very difficult to say someone is the best in the world and not have 1) any titles and 2) be clutch in the highest pressure situations.

Second, it is absolutely false that the ASG only mattered is when LeBron made a mistake in the 4th quarter this year. Anyone that says that is not a fan of the NBA, flat out. The 2001 AI/Marbury comeback game, 92 Magic's post HIV game, 03 with MJ, and 88 with MJ in Chicago getting MVP

I enjoy watching LeBron, but people act like no superstar has come under scrutiny before.

 

[Ward]

A few quibbiles:

It is very difficult to say someone is the best in the world and not have 1) any titles and 2) be clutch in the highest pressure situations.

Second, it is absolutely false that the ASG only mattered is when LeBron made a mistake in the 4th quarter this year. Anyone that says that is not a fan of the NBA, flat out. The 2001 AI/Marbury comeback game, 92 Magic's post HIV game, 03 with MJ, and 88 with MJ in Chicago getting MVP

I enjoy watching LeBron, but people act like no superstar has come under scrutiny before.

I said right now, forget the past take out what people may do in the future, THIS nba season nobody is playing at a higher level than LeBron. Not really sure if that can be argued if it looked at objectively.

I read the article the tweet was linked to so it is my fault for not putting the tweet in the proper context. You're right there have been many great ASG moments. What that tweet referred to was no other player or time has the game been more than an exhibition game in a sense that a player genuinely apologized for a late turnover, had his mindset analyzed by almost every sports talk show, and be treated like a player lost a critical game for his team.

 

[Knicks411]

Your making 2 very different arguments here and the only thing that gives them a "connection" to each other is the topic of NBA players, otherwise your blending two different arguments in to one. The first part sort of goes along with the point I was trying to make but I don't think you have a real understanding of society and media through the 20th century - which is fine but your trying to argue something you don't understand as well as using our current time period to help your argument.

Not sure I follow here. Maybe just a PM, or we can drop it if you like. (Assuming other people don't care about this particular part of the conversation.

The main point is that games, players, and plays weren't dissected in 1965 like they are today.

I enjoy watching LeBron, but people act like no superstar has come under scrutiny before.

My argument is more the opposite, though I think the scrutiny may be more now just because of how things are now, the size of the media, etc. But I'm also trying to say that many of the greatest players in history who some in this thread were saying Lebron can never match up to were at one point scrutinized in the same manner, if not to the same degree.