Lebron is a

[Eric15]

All the talent in the world does not matter when you are missing the stuff between the ears.

Was MJ missing the stuff between the ears for the first 6-7 titleless years of his career? Peyton Manning?

 

[Guinness]

Was MJ missing the stuff between the ears for the first 6-7 titleless years of his career? Peyton Manning?

Perhaps someone with a better memory than I can speak to this but I cannot a recall a single instance of MJ shrinking from taking a shot to end the game. He learned to hit the open guy when he had to but he was the man with the game on the line.

 

[qdawgg]

Well hopefully Wade stays healthy because that is the only way that Lebron wins multiple titles - which tells you all you need to know. Lebron is a very very good player and is lucky to have a great player with a ring on his team to carry him to a championship. Because he isn't doing it on his own, he's already proved that.

 

[arrow2arinzesknee]

Lebron will have 2-3 rings when it's all said and done. MJ didn't win his first ring until age 27 - Lebron is 27 this year.

The guy is sacreligiously good. He is averaging 27 ppg, 8 rpg, 7 apg, 2 spg on 54% FG shooting. He FINALLY has talent around him after overachieving with a roster of garbage players in Cleveland for 7 years. All the players you list above had the benefit of playing with HOF-caliber talent, now Lebron finally does as well.

To answer your question specifically, I think Lebron will be amongst MJ/Magic/Kobe/Kareem as the greatest 5 players ever.

he has a ton of work to do to get up in that upper echelon with

1. MJ
2. Russel
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kobe
7. Wilt

that top 7 is so hard to crack, and none of those players consistently disappeared during the most crucial moments of the season.

Like I said his stats are amazing, his physical prowess unmatched.

still not a top player until he wins, and even then he won't even be the alpha dog when he does that.
Those top players may have played with other HOF'ers and other greats, but not one of them would say, hey give the ball to the other guy in the last minutes, and that is the difference.

And I will believe he gets multiple titles when it happens.

 

[arrow2arinzesknee]

Perhaps someone with a better memory than I can speak to this but I cannot a recall a single instance of MJ shrinking from taking a shot to end the game. He learned to hit the open guy when he had to but he was the man with the game on the line.

because he didn't , ever

and I am a knicks fan, hated those bulls teams, but just read about the games jordan has and watch the highlights,

Lebron couldn't hold his jock-strap

 

[Knicks411]

Those top players may have played with other HOF'ers and other greats, but not one of them would say, hey give the ball to the other guy in the last minutes, and that is the difference.

Bill Russell? I am not sure, I don't think he was getting a lot of post touches when the Celtics needed buckets. Anyone who was alive at the time know any better?

Wilt was a guy who was considered a choker; wasn't there a whole thing about how he didn't go back into a finals game when he was with the Lakers?

Jordan was definitely considered a choker before he started winning titles. Not necessarily in the same sense that some people consider Lebron right now, though. I think Magic got some of the choker label after the C's won the 84 title. Kobe is a guy who pretty much quit on his team in Game 7 of the playoff series against Phoenix.

Lebron isn't there yet, don't get me wrong. But if he wins multiple titles, all this talk will go away. My point is that the further away you get from your career, the narrative can change.

But hey, if Lebron is to be considered one of the 5 best players of all time or wh atever, he has to win multiple titles. Period. This isn't baseball, where you can be a great player but you don't control that much of the game. This is the sport where one individual player can play the biggest role in the success of a team.

 

[Guinness]

Lebron isn't there yet, don't get me wrong. But if he wins multiple titles, all this talk will go away.

I think it goes away for Lebron fans specifically but not for fans of other teams or other eras. I think for those people (like myself) there is not much he can do to erase his finals performance from last year.

 

[Knicks411]

I think it goes away for Lebron fans specifically but not for fans of other teams or other eras. I think for those people (like myself) there is not much he can do to erase his finals performance from last year.

Maybe, but like I said in a different post, Magic Johnson was getting killed at the time for his performance in the 84 finals. (Pretty sure it was the 84 finals, at least). No one really talks about it now.

I feel like the further away you get from someone's career, the more their stats end up telling the story.

 

[Eric15]

he has a ton of work to do to get up in that upper echelon with

1. MJ
2. Russel
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kobe
7. Wilt

Fortunately for Lebron, he's just entering the prime of his career and will have plenty of time to do it. This guy has another 7-8 years left playing at an MVP level.

And what's the common denominator in all the players you list above? They all had the luxury of playing alongside other Hall of Fame level players.

 

[arrow2arinzesknee]

Fortunately for Lebron, he's just entering the prime of his career and will have plenty of time to do it. This guy has another 7-8 years left playing at an MVP level.

And what's the common denominator in all the players you list above? They all had the luxury of playing alongside other Hall of Fame level players.

but they all wanted the last shot/ball and all were alpha dogs on their teams

Lebron is not

 

[arrow2arinzesknee]

Bill Russell? I am not sure, I don't think he was getting a lot of post touches when the Celtics needed buckets. Anyone who was alive at the time know any better?

Wilt was a guy who was considered a choker; wasn't there a whole thing about how he didn't go back into a finals game when he was with the Lakers?

Jordan was definitely considered a choker before he started winning titles. Not necessarily in the same sense that some people consider Lebron right now, though. I think Magic got some of the choker label after the C's won the 84 title. Kobe is a guy who pretty much quit on his team in Game 7 of the playoff series against Phoenix.

Lebron isn't there yet, don't get me wrong. But if he wins multiple titles, all this talk will go away. My point is that the further away you get from your career, the narrative can change.

But hey, if Lebron is to be considered one of the 5 best players of all time or wh atever, he has to win multiple titles. Period. This isn't baseball, where you can be a great player but you don't control that much of the game. This is the sport where one individual player can play the biggest role in the success of a team.

Kobe has 5 rings/ 2 as the alpha dog, Lebron has not had a single moment of showing a champions pedigree . Lebrons mistakes can be erased by starting to win, but even now he isnt going to win being the alpha male on his team, and there is a lot to be said about that compared to the all time greats.

Look Russell was the heart and soul of 11 championship teams.
11!

 

[Eric15]

Lebron has not had a single moment of showing a champions pedigree.

Did you watch the 2007 playoffs? He put a garbage Cavs team on his back and scored something like 25 straight points in a clinching game against the heavily favored Pistons.

 

[Knicks411]

Look Russell was the heart and soul of 11 championship teams.
11!

Russell was one of the best players of all time. I am not doubting that for a second. But I don't think anyone would consider him the alpha dog of those teams, at least in the sense of he is getting the ball when the game is on the line. (Though like I said, i was never alive when he played, perhaps this is wrong).

I think Lebron is the guy on the heat right now. I think I've even read quotes from Wade saying Lebron is the guy on the team. (Could be making that up).

Did you watch the 2007 playoffs? He put a garbage Cavs team on his back and scored something like 25 straight points in a clinching game against the heavily favored Pistons.

Last years finals performance was one of the more puzzling in recent memory though. Especially since he was so good in the round before; making huge shots, shutting down the MVP. I can't defend the his performance at the end of a lot of those finals games though.

 

[Guinness]

Did you watch the 2007 playoffs? He put a garbage Cavs team on his back and scored something like 25 straight points in a clinching game against the heavily favored Pistons.

He is the Jim Kelly of the NBA. Great in the playoffs. Not so much in the championship.

 

[arrow2arinzesknee]

Russell was one of the best players of all time. I am not doubting that for a second. But I don't think anyone would consider him the alpha dog of those teams, at least in the sense of he is getting the ball when the game is on the line. (Though like I said, i was never alive when he played, perhaps this is wrong).

I think Lebron is the guy on the heat right now. I think I've even read quotes from Wade saying Lebron is the guy on the team. (Could be making that up).



Last years finals performance was one of the more puzzling in recent memory though. Especially since he was so good in the round before; making huge shots, shutting down the MVP. I can't defend the his performance at the end of a lot of those finals games though.

Ya and those Cav's teams were #1 seeds or top seeds were they not? wasn't he supposed to take them to the finals more than once?

 

[Knicks411]

Ya and those Cav's teams were #1 seeds or top seeds were they not? wasn't he supposed to take them to the finals more than once?

They were the top seed in 09 and 10. 2nd seed in 2007. (Man, second seed with 50 wins?) 2008 they were the 4th seed; lost in 7 games to the Celtics in round 2.

09 was the bad one, 66-16 and they lost in round 2.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

The haters don't remember the great moments... Detroit series, Bulls series last season. Lebron has been great in the playoffs. I don't think he's going to let D Wade be "the guy" in the Finals next year. Miami works best when Bron is the guy and Wade plays off him.

He's been to two NBA Finals already and he is 27. I think he'll win a couple, barring injury. Not everyone wins them right away.

 

[MikeSU02]

They were the top seed in 09 and 10. 2nd seed in 2007. (Man, second seed with 50 wins?) 2008 they were the 4th seed; lost in 7 games to the Celtics in round 2.

09 was the bad one, 66-16 and they lost in round 2.

And let's be clear what the underlying assumptions are when people say Cleveland had no help, you (not you - Knicks 411, the general "you") are assuming that he had no voice in who came to Cleveland. I would wager that LeBron helped to construct the team that was around him more than people know.

It's one of the things the Jerrys in Chicago never let MJ do, and for good reason.

 

[Guinness]

Not everyone wins them right away.

Not everyone opens their season with a championship level celebration before having won one either.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Not everyone opens their season with a championship level celebration before having won one either.

A lot of teams do this..but it doesn't get any attention. When Jason Kidd came to the Nets, he said he was looking forward to not 1 but multiple championships at the season open party at the Meadowlands. No one cared... because no one cares about Jason Kidd. People say stuff like this to fans...

 

[Knicks411]

And let's be clear what the underlying assumptions are when people say Cleveland had no help, you (not you - Knicks 411, the general "you") are assuming that he had no voice in who came to Cleveland. I would wager that LeBron helped to construct the team that was around him more than people know.

It's one of the things the Jerrys in Chicago never let MJ do, and for good reason.

There is definitely something to that. (and I know Jordan hated that Kukoc was on the team, for instance) It's definitely true that just because a player is great doesn't mean he should be making moves. (Didn't Kobe want to move Bynum for Kidd like 3 years ago?)

 

[MikeSU02]

There is definitely something to that. (and I know Jordan hated that Kukoc was on the team, for instance) It's definitely true that just because a player is great doesn't mean he should be making moves. (Didn't Kobe want to move Bynum for Kidd like 3 years ago?)

Two things: 1) I agree that they shouldn't be making moves and it is on the ownership to squash it and 2) Regarding Kobe, yes. He absolutely wanted Bynum gone for J Kidd.

 

[Knicks411]

Two things: 1) I agree that they shouldn't be making moves and it is on the ownership to squash it and 2) Regarding Kobe, yes. He absolutely wanted Bynum gone for J Kidd.

It's a tough spot for the team, especially with Lebron or Dwight Howard (who I believe wanted the Bass for Baby Davis trade; great idea, huh?) who is a FA soon. You want to keep them happy, but just because they are great players doesn't mean they should be making moves. I think they probably need to realize that these guys want to win, and its more important to put a good team on the floor than to get their buddies on the team or to listen to them for player moves.

 

[BostonOrange]

Was MJ missing the stuff between the ears for the first 6-7 titleless years of his career? Peyton Manning?

For years I would have been taking your position in this argument. And, at times, I still look at LBJ and think "that is the 2nd greatest player I've ever seen". The fact that he hadn't won a championship didn't bother me because MJ himself probably couldn't have won with those Cleveland teams. I laughed when people made the Kobe argument - to me it wasn't even close.

But...after watching last years finals I don't know what to think. In the 4th quarter of game 6...quite simply...HE DIDN'T WANT THE BALL. I'm not one to think that the superstar has to take every shot, but he has to make his presence known, he has to TRY. He can't catch the ball at the top of the key with 5 secs left on the shot clock and quickly give it up to a well covered Mike Bibby. Can't happen. He has to somehow try to impose his will on the game. We'll see how he does next time they get in that situation...but for now i've knocked him down a peg (which i'm sure hurts his feelings).

 

[NovaOrange]

Is a beast
Despite playing in only 60 playoff games in four years (soon to be five), LeBron James has already etched out quite a postseason resume.
He's notched four triple-doubles, topped 30 points on 30 different occasions (and 40-plus points eight times), and led the Cavaliers to their first-ever NBA Finals appearance in 2007.
For his career, he's averaging 29.4 points, 8.3 rebounds, 7.3 assists, and 1.6 steals in the playoffs—not too shabby, I suppose.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/370678-lebron-james-top-10-playoff-plays-and-performances#/articles/370678-lebron-james-top-10-playoff-plays-and-performances/page/2