Let’s Talk About the 2022 Syracuse Offense | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

Let’s Talk About the 2022 Syracuse Offense

721Comstock said:
Yeah, the whole idea of an RPO, where the QB NEVER runs it, is pointless.

Much like how we'd often have Courtney motion across behind the QB to fake the sweep, and NEVER give him the ball.
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There's not many RPO's where the QB runs it. There's the one that becomes like the triple option where the QB pulls it, reads the field defender and elects to run or throw to the sideline Wr. Thats based on how the defender reacts.
 
timkay99 said:
IMO, this went away because there was no outside blocking and there was a distinct lack of physicality from the WR's, to the point they were physically overpowered by DB's. Went from a specimen in Custis, a physical Butler and Taj (with a physical Ravian Pierce) to Courtney and Taj w/ Luke Benson replacing Pierce. Not exactly a lot of physicality on the outside (though 2 NFL pass catchers).

Will be curious to see what the aerial UVA attack looks like with these WR's, there is more talent at WR presently then there has been in some time. Young, yes. But lot of talent getting honed going against those DB's everyday.

2018 Outside WR
6'3, 194 Devin Butler
6'5, 213 Jamal Custis
6'2, 175 Taj Harris

2018 TE
6'3, 244 Ravian Pierce
6'3, 228 Aaron Hackett
6'0, 282 Chris Elmore

2019 Outside WR
6'1, 191 Trishton Jackson
6'2, 175 Taj Harris

2019 TE
6'3, 234 Aaron Hackett
6'3, 210 Luke Benson
6'0, 295 Chris Elmore
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I'll push back on this a little and note that it's the slot receivers that are the target in the quick horizontal passing game. We had the same slot receivers from 2018 to 2019 in Sean Riley and Nykeim Johnson. From 2018 to 2019 both saw a roughly 50% reduction in receptions (Riley went from 64 receptions in 2018 to 36 in 2019, Johnson went from 41 in 2018 to 19 in 2019). Interestingly, Johnson's production at Kent State went back up to 2018 levels during his one year at Kent State (54 receptions). Was this a lack of physicality or outside blocking? Was it scheme change (same OC)?
 
blizz said:
I'll push back on this a little and note that it's the slot receivers that are the target in the quick horizontal passing game. We had the same slot receivers from 2018 to 2019 in Sean Riley and Nykeim Johnson. From 2018 to 2019 both saw a roughly 50% reduction in receptions (Riley went from 64 receptions in 2018 to 36 in 2019, Johnson went from 41 in 2018 to 19 in 2019). Interestingly, Johnson's production at Kent State went back up to 2018 levels during his one year at Kent State (54 receptions). Was this a lack of physicality or outside blocking? Was it scheme change (same OC)?
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Hey Blizz, was only responding to the 2x2 screen game part of the post.

Horizontal game should have been better with guys like Trishton and Taj running slants and crossing patterns as well.
 
upperdeck said:
you also had a bunch of times ED did not run the plays correctly. coaches were frustrated by that as well..
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Because he saved their butts because their plays wouldn't have worked. If he had run all the plays the way they wanted, we would have had the same results as all the other years..
 
blizz said:
It seems clear to me that the failure of the Babers system was driven by the lack of horizontal stretch plays in the passing game beginning in 2019. Go back and watch any games from 2016-2018 and it's very noticeable, especially in the early game scripts how they were making an effort to attack the flats to force the outside linebackers to get wider in pre-snap alignments. Then they would mix in inside zone runs to get the safeties to move up to account for both the stretches to the flat and the running lanes between the backers. And this opened up the vertical and one-on-one passing game, which is what the Babers offense really thrived on.

I've had the conviction that this shift was personnel driven. I saw Devito as just being unwilling to throw those hook and seam routes to the slot receivers, where the ball had to be delivered into a tight window. On the other hand, I'm not quite sure why we got away from throwing the wide receiver screen pass into the 2x2 stack on the outside. This was an easy throw that Devito was perfectly suited for. This was a bread and butter play for Dungey, but beginning in 2019, it seems to have suddenly gone away.

My hope is that the passing game can get back to the original mode of forcing the defense to make adjustments that open up other avenues of attack. I'm encouraged because Anae seems to use alignment and motions to prescribe pre-snap reads. I think this is preferable as it gives better information and simplifies the pre-snap routine for the quarterback. Anae also seems adept at exploiting the combination of the seam/flat routes with plays that also drag linebackers and safeties across the middle of the field. I think this is the perfect complement to Babers system of exploiting space, both horizontally and vertically.
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The Baylor system got figured out. Defenses caught up. It wasn’t anything Babers did or didn’t do.

If you look at the Maryland game in 2019 - looked like they knew everything we were going to do and we looked shocked. It was like they knew all the presnap and post snap reads.

Anyways - I share your enthusiasm for the Anae take on O. I don’t think combining some of the concepts from Babers old system will hurt at all.
 
TheCusian said:
The Baylor system got figured out. Defenses caught up. It wasn’t anything Babers did or didn’t do.

If you look at the Maryland game in 2019 - looked like they knew everything we were going to do and we looked shocked. It was like they knew all the presnap and post snap reads.

Anyways - I share your enthusiasm for the Anae take on O. I don’t think combining some of the concepts from Babers old system will hurt at all.
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Offense was figured out. What does that even mean? It’s a false narrative created on this forum after the O line and QB play took a dive. SU has been a losing program for 20 years so people tend to point fingers at every thing out of frustration. The defense was putrid vs Maryland. We’re they figured out? There’s nothing complexed that Anae does. Watch their games on YouTube. They just execute better.
 
money3189 said:
Offense was figured out. What does that even mean? It’s a false narrative created on this forum after the O line and QB play took a dive. SU has been a losing program for 20 years so people tend to point fingers at every thing out of frustration. The defense was putrid vs Maryland. We’re they figured out? There’s nothing complexed that Anae does. Watch their games on YouTube. They just execute better.
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He also adjust his O based on the skill set of his players.
The only time ive seen Dino do this was last year out of desperation vs design.
 
baggerbob said:
Because he saved their butts because their plays wouldn't have worked. If he had run all the plays the way they wanted, we would have had the same results as all the other years..
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no. because they called plays and he made bad reads plays worked far less than they would have.. yeah he saved some plays but he also threw a ton to the wrong WR because he fell in love with the wrong throws.
 
money3189 said:
Offense was figured out. What does that even mean? It’s a false narrative created on this forum after the O line and QB play took a dive. SU has been a losing program for 20 years so people tend to point fingers at every thing out of frustration.
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I'm not one to point fingers Money, but I'd say it was about 90% your fault.
 
kcsu said:
He also adjust his O based on the skill set of his players.
The only time ive seen Dino do this was last year out of desperation vs design.
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Can't totally say that. I would say that about Gilbert but not with previous OC's. There were power read plays designed for Dungey. Isolation and rpo routes for Etta Tawo, Ishmael to take advantage of mix matches. They got the ball to Erv in different spots. They used Elmore's versatiltiy as a blocker. They added and taken out some plays based on skill sets .You still have to execute and be better than the guy defending you. The offense in 2020 and some of 2019 was horrendous. I dont know what Gilbert was trying to do. I think Dino pushed for more run focus in 2021. Schmidt had some input too.
 
Fellas, systems are a combination of concepts coaches steal from each other. lol. There is no gimmick or fooling of defensive coaches. I never hear people say Rugerrio, Lashlee Longo are figured out. All have similar systems in our league. Btw Arkansas (Briles) was one of the top offenses in the SEC last season.
 
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money3189 said:
Fellas, systems are a combination of concepts coaches steal from each other. lol. There is no gimmick or fooling of defensive coaches. I never hear people say Rugerrio, Lashlee Longo are figured out. All have similar systems in our league. Btw Arkansas (Briles) was one of the top offenses in the SEC last season.
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And didn't Ole Miss run one of the fastest tempos last year?
 
money3189 said:
Offense was figured out. What does that even mean? It’s a false narrative created on this forum after the O line and QB play took a dive. SU has been a losing program for 20 years so people tend to point fingers at every thing out of frustration. The defense was putrid vs Maryland. We’re they figured out? There’s nothing complexed that Anae does. Watch their games on YouTube. They just execute better.
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Honestly, I thought in the Maryland game, we were a team that thought we would win just by showing up. Dino alluded to it in the week leading up to the game, but couldn't fix it in time.

Maryland had other ideas. And suddenly it was a blazing hot afternoon where we didn't want to be there anymore.

One of the worst efforts I can recall. If you're not giving the effort that this sport requires each week, it's going to look like the other team matched your calls like it was Tecmo Bowl.
 
Chip said:
Honestly, I thought in the Maryland game, we were a team that thought we would win just by showing up. Dino alluded to it in the week leading up to the game, but couldn't fix it in time.

Maryland had other ideas. And suddenly it was a blazing hot afternoon where we didn't want to be there anymore.

One of the worst efforts I can recall. If you're not giving the effort that this sport requires each week, it's going to look like the other team matched your calls like it was Tecmo Bowl.
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Yup, and I get it. Its easy for everyone to reference that game when pointing out all the flaws SU has but it really was just a flat out butt kicking. Everything went Maryland's way.
 
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blizz said:
I'll push back on this a little and note that it's the slot receivers that are the target in the quick horizontal passing game. We had the same slot receivers from 2018 to 2019 in Sean Riley and Nykeim Johnson. From 2018 to 2019 both saw a roughly 50% reduction in receptions (Riley went from 64 receptions in 2018 to 36 in 2019, Johnson went from 41 in 2018 to 19 in 2019). Interestingly, Johnson's production at Kent State went back up to 2018 levels during his one year at Kent State (54 receptions). Was this a lack of physicality or outside blocking? Was it scheme change (same OC)?
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Agree, but I think it's not just the scheme alone. I think it had a lot more to do with the pitcher rather than the catcher.
 
Idk why but I keep coming back to Trebor Pena as a key guy this year. Obviously known more for ST work but I think his speed could stretch the field and you mix in the right plays with him running reverses etc I think he becomes a really nice contributor.
 
money3189 said:
What do you mean by figured out? They ran all the same common plays as everyone else. Everyone runs inside/outside zone, counters and power plays. Anae runs them too. Their pass concepts and Rpo plays were just as common. Play caling and execution was the problem (Gilbert sucked and the O line was horrendous). The most basic offenses are some of the most lethal ones when you execute them right.
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The Baylor O got figured out 2017-18. The reads and quick WR screens combined with wide splits and deep balls all got countered; the defenses adjusted. The Big12 used to live on that stuff and now they are a defensive league. Tempo stopped working as well once the quick reads stopped.

What we ran the last two years wasn’t that system, I think? That’s why I always kind of questioned people who called it the Dino offense.

I’ll defer to you - but it seems like whatever Baylor was running 15 yrs ago has been stripped for parts
 
RMH44 said:
I know you didn't ask for my opinion but here goes.

I honestly believe that DeVito didn't/couldn't grasp the basic concept (take what the defense gives you) of DB's offense. Additionally, he came in with a gunslinger mentality.

Combine these 2 things with a less than average offensive line and you have the makings of a pending disaster.

Imo, TD's biggest failings came at the LOS. Rather than take what the D offered, he seemed to approach the LOS with his mind made up...which was usually looking vertically first and then run for cover. I'm not even going to get into his lack of feel in the pocket or comprehension of in-game situational awareness.

TD might actually be OK at Illinois because Bielema doesn't ask much from his QB's and runs a very structured offense which usually involves hand-offs on 1st and 2nd downs. He won't have to make as many decisions at the line of scrimmage. Time will tell.
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The system he got recruited for isn’t the system he ran. His strengths were not able to be utilized as we transitioned from that system to something new. His weaknesses went very poorly with bad OL play.

Sometimes it’s wrong guy at the wrong time. He’s not good enough to overcome the challenges he faced here. But that doesn’t mean he won’t at Illinois, as you said
 
baggerbob said:
Because he saved their butts because their plays wouldn't have worked. If he had run all the plays the way they wanted, we would have had the same results as all the other years..
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Fake news
 
TheCusian said:
The Baylor O got figured out 2017-18. The reads and quick WR screens combined with wide splits and deep balls all got countered; the defenses adjusted. The Big12 used to live on that stuff and now they are a defensive league. Tempo stopped working as well once the quick reads stopped.

What we ran the last two years wasn’t that system, I think? That’s why I always kind of questioned people who called it the Dino offense.

I’ll defer to you - but it seems like whatever Baylor was running 15 yrs ago has been stripped for parts
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Quick game reads and Wr screens is part of everyone's offense. Thats not going away. Some might have to do it more than others based on strength and weakness of the team. Briles ran a power run offense, tempo was just part of it. Power and counter runs was the meat of it. Briles version alone was never used at SU. Dino used his philosophy but had his OC's focused on certain parts. Believe me, all these spread teams run the same stuff they just do it in different ways. Briles took from others to create his system. He also doesnt own the rights of tempo. So many coaches have been running it. Look at the top 11 offenses in the country. I want to say almost all of them run up tempo.
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