Mark Few on game day

Cusefan0307

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Go back to the '80's. Coach K was winning back when the talent was more evenly spread. He wasn't asked to coach the Olympic team because he didn't understand strategy.

I question your ability to analyze coaches.

Coach K has the same amount of tournament wins as JB the last 5 seasons. He’s vastly underperformed with the talent he’s brought in over that period.
 

CardiacCuse

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Go back to the '80's. Coach K was winning back when the talent was more evenly spread. He wasn't asked to coach the Olympic team because he didn't understand strategy.

I question your ability to analyze coaches.
in the 80s maybe...but that was 30 years ago...lately he has not been nearly as good, imo...just coasting off rep at this point. I mean how many 5 stars does it take for you to have a losing record??? Is taking 5 burger boys to the sweet 16 really that impressive? He's got first rounders that he cant figure how to use well...idk.

I still think leattner, grant hill and hurley etc is an insane amount of talent for an NCAABB team...not winning with that squad would be very difficult. But he did do a great job of getting the best out of them.
 
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sufandu

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Coach K has the same amount of tournament wins as JB the last 5 seasons. He’s vastly underperformed with the talent he’s brought in over that period.
I've said this in other threads. There's more to college basketball than the tournament. Did JB fail as a coach in 1980, 1991, 2004, or 2005? I don't think so those were great years.

Why do you limit things to the last 5 years?

When you are a consistently high seed, you have a greater chance at being upset. If you look at JB's tournament record I bet you'd see our performance relative to our seeding is worse when we are a high seed than when we are a low seed. I really don't think that's surprising. If you're a 1 seed anything less than a final 4 is underperforming, if you're a 2 anything less than an elite 8 is.

Duke has been a 1 or 2 seed under coach K 24 times. They reached the final four in 8 of those years and won 5 NC's. Under JB we have been a 1 or 2 seed 8 times. As a 1 seed we made one elite 8 and two sweet 16's. As a 2 seed we made one elite 8 and lost in the NC game once. So as a 1 or 2 seed Duke has made a FF a third of the time. As a 1 or 2 seed we have made it there an eighth of the time. So it could be argued that given elite talent, Duke maximizes it more often than us.

Now it could be argued that we do better on the average with less than elite talent since we've made the FF four other times when we were lower than a 2 seed, once as a 3 seed (won our NC and I would argue our talent was pretty close to elite), twice as a 4 seed, and once as a 10. Of course Duke as only been lower than a 2 seed ten times with K as coach. They were an 8 seed once, a 6 seed once, and a 5 seed once. The rest were 3 and 4 seeds.

Now, regular season success is what determines whether you even make the tournament and what you're seeded, so it can't be ignored. And recruiting is part of college coaching, so I wouldn't hold it against a coach for winning with elite talent.

So, as I said. If you question whether coach K is a good coach. I question your ability to analyze coaches.
 

sufandu

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in the 80s maybe...but that was 30 years ago...lately he has not been nearly as good, imo...just coasting off rep at this point. I mean how many 5 stars does it take for you to have a losing record??? Is taking 5 burger boys to the sweet 16 really that impressive? He's got first rounders that he cant figure how to use well...idk.

I still think leattner, grant hill and hurley etc is an insane amount of talent for an NCAABB team...not winning with that squad would be very difficult. But he did do a great job of getting the best out of them.
Stop. The burger boys have been freshman. It's always crapshoot with them, that's why so few have been able to pull it off and usually end up losing to a veteran team. However, he won a NC with one of those freshman oriented teams. I get it, it's cool to hate K. And people will cherry pick stats to "prove" he's not that great of a coach.
 

Cusefan0307

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Stop. The burger boys have been freshman. It's always crapshoot with them, that's why so few have been able to pull it off and usually end up losing to a veteran team. However, he won a NC with one of those freshman oriented teams. I get it, it's cool to hate K. And people will cherry pick stats to "prove" he's not that great of a coach.

I never said K never was a great coach, but NOW when it comes to even talent there’s a lot of other coaches I would pick before him. And if you’re reasoning is coaching Freshman is a crapshoot then maybe, just maybe we should stop slobbering over their recruiting every year.
 

sufandu

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I never said K never was a great coach, but NOW when it comes to even talent there’s a lot of other coaches I would pick before him. And if you’re reasoning is coaching Freshman is a crapshoot then maybe, just maybe we should stop slobbering over their recruiting every year.
Slobbering over recruiting is what people do. Look at what this board does with anybody ranking in the top 40. It's the victim of the moment mentality of sports culture.
 

CardiacCuse

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Stop. The burger boys have been freshman. It's always crapshoot with them, that's why so few have been able to pull it off and usually end up losing to a veteran team. However, he won a NC with one of those freshman oriented teams. I get it, it's cool to hate K. And people will cherry pick stats to "prove" he's not that great of a coach.
give K pittsburgh level talent and he's in the cellar of the ACC every year...we'd never find out though, cuz if that happened, he'd quit just ike Roy Williams did.

This year is evidence of just how much the home crowd advantage helps teams like Duke, Kentucky, Kansas etc...take the "cameron crazies" away and the huge talent advantage he regularly enjoys and K is a 500 coach in NCAABB, imo...and I don't even think that is that controversial.
 
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NineOneSeven

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give K pittsburgh level talent and he's in the cellar of the ACC every year...we'd never find out though, cuz if that happened, he'd quit just ike Roy Williams did.

This year is evidence of just how much the home crowd advantage helps teams like Duke, Kentucky, Kansas etc...take the "cameron crazies" away and the huge talent advantage he regularly enjoys and K is a 500 coach in NCAABB, imo...and I don't even think that is that controversial.
But getting talent is part of the overall coaching job.
 

CardiacCuse

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But getting talent is part of the overall coaching job.
true. if you include recruiting into "being a coach", then K is one of the best...but if you strictly look at what happens in-game (as I was) he is middle of the road, imo. That would also mean Calipari is a great coach, too, though (which we all know is not true)

How many other coaches could equal K's results with his recent rosters? How would Porter Moser, Oats, Beard, Smart, Bennett, Stevens, etc do with K's rosters? I think they would overperform him or at least equal him...

For most of his career, I would say a coach like JB gets more out of the talent that he does have than just about anyone...for example...I dont think you could say the same about K. to me that is what makes a good coach...not merely not messing up a roster of 1st rounders...
 

sufandu

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give K pittsburgh level talent and he's in the cellar of the ACC every year...we'd never find out though, cuz if that happened, he'd quit just ike Roy Williams did.

This year is evidence of just how much the home crowd advantage helps teams like Duke, Kentucky, Kansas etc...take the "cameron crazies" away and the huge talent advantage he regularly enjoys and K is a 500 coach in NCAABB, imo...and I don't even think that is that controversial.
Nah. Look at what he did at Army. 5 consecutive losing seasons before he took over, 3-22 the season before. Was 11-14 in his first season and won 20 his second. He didn't get the Duke job because he was a bad coach.
 

DoctorBombay

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This thread is an absolute hoot.
I mean, irrational H0T Takes abound, too many to list right now.
So, just to reiterate...the winningest HC in the history of the sport is only successful because of
(1) Cameron Crazies, and
(2) his ability to recruit
( is that supposed to be a negative?).
And theFIVE(5) NC’s?
Well, with that kinda talent he shoulda had 10, or 13, maybe! Lol

One of my favorite all-time sports quotes, which usually shuts up whatever inane hot take is on the table:

“You are, what your record says you are”. - Bill Parcells-

So, yeah...there’s always that part. But please, carry on!
 
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sufandu

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This thread is an absolute hoot. I mean, irrational H0T Takes abound, too many to list right now.
So, just to reiterate...the winningest HC in the history of the sport is only successful because of (1) Cameron Crazies, and (2) his ability to recruit ( is that supposed to be a negative?).
And theFIVE(5) NC’s? Well, with that kinda talent he shoulda had 10, or 13, maybe! Lol

One of my favorite all-time sports quotes, because it usually shuts up whatever inane hot take is on the table: “ You are, what your record says you are”. - Bill Parcells-
So, yeah...there’s always that part. But please, carry on!
Didn't you know that all those championship games were played at Cameron? And when he won that first championship he had so much more talent than that scrappy UNLV team that just happened to be an undefeated defending national champion that waxed them the year before.
 

HOFCeluck

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This thread is an absolute hoot.
I mean, irrational H0T Takes abound, too many to list right now.
So, just to reiterate...the winningest HC in the history of the sport is only successful because of
(1) Cameron Crazies, and
(2) his ability to recruit
( is that supposed to be a negative?).
And theFIVE(5) NC’s?
Well, with that kinda talent he shoulda had 10, or 13, maybe! Lol

One of my favorite all-time sports quotes, because it usually shuts up whatever inane hot take is on the table:
“You are, what your record says you are”. - Bill Parcells-
So, yeah...there’s always that part. But please, carry on!

A lot of people letting their hate get the better of them.
 

HoustonCuse

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I’m just happy seeing a thread where people are adamant that other HOF coaches suck instead of our own! Sort of refreshing.
 

UnknownOrange

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Off the top of my head.. there are a FEW (wink) coaches in college basketball that every single program would want tomorrow for the next 5-10 years. Few is 100000% on that short list.
 

calorange

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When you are a consistently high seed, you have a greater chance at being upset. If you look at JB's tournament record I bet you'd see our performance relative to our seeding is worse when we are a high seed than when we are a low seed. I really don't think that's surprising. If you're a 1 seed anything less than a final 4 is underperforming, if you're a 2 anything less than an elite 8 is.

Duke has been a 1 or 2 seed under coach K 24 times. They reached the final four in 8 of those years and won 5 NC's. Under JB we have been a 1 or 2 seed 8 times. As a 1 seed we made one elite 8 and two sweet 16's. As a 2 seed we made one elite 8 and lost in the NC game once. So as a 1 or 2 seed Duke has made a FF a third of the time. As a 1 or 2 seed we have made it there an eighth of the time. So it could be argued that given elite talent, Duke maximizes it more often than us
I think there's a flaw in your argument here that is unique to SU. Two of the 3 times we have earned a #1 seed we did not get to play the tournament with a key starter that earned us the #1 seed. If you take Fab Melo and AO off those teams in January instead of Mid March I find it pretty unlikely those teams would have earned #1 seeds, so I think it's unrealistic to expect them to perform like #1 seeds in the tournament. And lo and behold, they didn't.
 

sufandu

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I think there's a flaw in your argument here that is unique to SU. Two of the 3 times we have earned a #1 seed we did not get to play the tournament with a key starter that earned us the #1 seed. If you take Fab Melo and AO off those teams in January instead of Mid March I find it pretty unlikely those teams would have earned #1 seeds, so I think it's unrealistic to expect them to perform like #1 seeds in the tournament. And lo and behold, they didn't.
That may be true. Regardless, Duke has made a FF a third of the time as a number 1 or 2 seed under K. That's a high success rate, and that's my point. He's won as many NC's as we have FF's under JB. He is tied with John Wooden for the most FF's and is second in NC's. The idea that he can't coach is simply stupid.
 

kirbivore

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But getting talent is part of the overall coaching job.

The friends of the program are more responsible for that than Coach K

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