Marrone Speaks!

[OrangePA]

Of course you don't.

You're right.

My assessment is based upon fact and an understanding of the history of the program and the present financial status of the program and an honest, objective assessment of the talent level and recent recruiting.

The notion that this is a make or break season is really nothing more than groundless - talk-radio-like jibberish. It is not realistic, has no factual bases, and is unworthy of any serious consideration on this board.

So, yes, of course any informed and objective observer would discount your assessment.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

My assessment is based upon fact and an understanding of the history of the program and the present financial status of the program and an honest, objective assessment of the talent level and recent recruiting.

So, yes, of course any informed and objective observer would discount your assessment.

I bet that's a mighty nice view from up on that high horse.

At some point a lot of you are going to have to accept that the numbers of fans that are needed to help the program be successful won't be basing their assessment of the program on facts, understanding of the program history and the present financial states of the program in an honest way, or objectively assess the talent level and recent recruiting. You can be as elite a fan as you wish to envision yourself, you're still occupying just one (1) seat in the Dome.

 

[xc84]

You were talking about one guy. That would be like me saying, "I know a guy who just moved here and he watches soccer all weekend...couldn't care less about American football."

Ok. I will re-phrase. Your over-generalization of fans is as valuable as my narrow anecdote.

 

[Millhouse]

I bet that's a mighty nice view from up on that high horse.

At some point a lot of you are going to have to accept that the numbers of fans that are needed to help the program be successful won't be basing their assessment of the program on facts, understanding of the program history and the present financial states of the program in an honest way, or objectively assess the talent level and recent recruiting. You can be as elite a fan as you wish to envision yourself, you're still occupying just one (1) seat in the Dome.

there are lots of people who occupy more than one seat in the dome. I go in on season tickets with about 4 of them unfortunately. (i'm throwing rocks from my seat in a glass house)

 

[OrangePA]

I bet that's a mighty nice view from up on that high horse.

At some point a lot of you are going to have to accept that the numbers of fans that are needed to help the program be successful won't be basing their assessment of the program on facts, understanding of the program history and the present financial states of the program in an honest way, or objectively assess the talent level and recent recruiting. You can be as elite a fan as you wish to envision yourself, you're still occupying just one (1) seat in the Dome.

I have to tell you.

I have no idea what it is you're trying to convey.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I have to tell you.

I have no idea what it is you're trying to convey.

Your knowledge and enlightenment has blinded you.

 

[hungrychuck]

Ok. I will re-phrase. Your over-generalization of fans is as valuable as my narrow anecdote.

I can only tell you that with each passing year, there are fewer fans who remember 1959, who remember 1987, who remember 1998, etc. I don't consider that to be a good thing.

Listen, we've already gone on way too long about an issue that isn't going to be resolved today, and maybe not next year or the year after that. I'm sure we have better things to do. After all, this thread started with the remarks of our head football coach. I'm certain that's a much better subject for extended discussion.

So I'll make this the last thing I'll say on the subject. Let's see what happens. The winning has to happen first or it's a moot point anyway. If and when it does, we'll see who's right. We move up to the mid-40s like Scooch suggests, you won't have to look for me, I'll be the first one to come on here and say I was wrong. We stay below, say, 42 or so despite real improvement on the field, and I'm sure I'll likewise hear from you gents. Sorry, but gotta leave it there.

 

[orangenirvana]

You're right.

My assessment is based upon fact and an understanding of the history of the program and the present financial status of the program and an honest, objective assessment of the talent level and recent recruiting.

The notion that this is a make or break season is really nothing more than groundless - talk-radio-like jibberish. It is not realistic, has no factual bases, and is unworthy of any serious consideration on this board.

So, yes, of course any informed and objective observer would discount your assessment.

Just so you know, you really can come off as an arrogant elitist. That is in case you care.

Your assessment isn't so much based on fact as it is your incessant inferiority complex with regard to Syracuse University athletics and / or your belief that because SU chose a head football coach he cannot possibly be in over his head and there cannot possibly be a better alternative. Ever.

 

[OrangePA]

Just so you know, you really can come off as an arrogant elitist. That is in case you care.

Your assessment isn't so much based on fact as it is your incessant inferiority complex with regard to Syracuse University athletics and / or your belief that because SU chose a head football coach he cannot possibly be in over his head and there cannot possibly be a better alternative. Ever.

Ah, the handy "name calling" tactic. When all else fails I guess.

I wonder if you understand what "inferiority complex" really means. I base my opinions on what I know - on information I make an effort to obtain from those in the know about college athletics - both at the University and at other schools. I also base it on what I read from what I feel are reliable sources of information.

If you think information is elitist, that's your issue - perhaps an inferiority complex?

I'm pretty confident that I understand what is going on and I'm pretty sure that there are a number of posters on this board who also understand what is going on. I don't think anyone who pays attention - who is a serious observer - agrees with you that Marrone is "over his head." I think most would agree - with some exceptions- the usual suspects - that Marrone has raised the level of play, has improved our recruiting base and has presented himself as a serious, thoughtful , committed and hard working manager of the Syracuse University Football Program. You and others may not agree with the decision to close spring practice - a really small matter in the scheme of things - but that decision represents a calculated decision to help improve the team. The decision is hardly an example of a HC being over his head.

As far as caring about what you have said about me, you're right - I don't care for a number of reasons. First, I have no idea who you are - you're just an anonymous poster - I just can't get worked up about somebody out there who is just a name. Second, this is just a discussion board - it's just a fun diversion from life and work - I can't take it too seriously. And, third, as I have said, I'm pretty confident that I have done my homework and have a decent idea of what is going on - I'm not offering emotional outbursts that sound like talk-radio BS.

I think again that those who feel the need to go after Marrone at this point are not being realistic about where this program was three years ago and how much has been done to improve things - and about how much more needs to be done. I think that those who offer the kind of fact-less generality that he's "over his head" reveal an unfortunate level of impatience that fails to truly consider the facts on the ground.

Sorry.

 

[Toga]

 

[orangenirvana]

Ah, the handy "name calling" tactic. When all else fails I guess.

I wonder if you understand what "inferiority complex" really means. I base my opinions on what I know - on information I make an effort to obtain from those in the know about college athletics - both at the University and at other schools. I also base it on what I read from what I feel are reliable sources of information.

If you think information is elitist, that's your issue - perhaps an inferiority complex?

I'm pretty confident that I understand what is going on and I'm pretty sure that there are a number of posters on this board who also understand what is going on. I don't think anyone who pays attention - who is a serious observer - agrees with you that Marrone is "over his head." I think most would agree - with some exceptions- the usual suspects - that Marrone has raised the level of play, has improved our recruiting base and has presented himself as a serious, thoughtful , committed and hard working manager of the Syracuse University Football Program. You and others may not agree with the decision to close spring practice - a really small matter in the scheme of things - but that decision represents a calculated decision to help improve the team. The decision is hardly an example of a HC being over his head.

As far as caring about what you have said about me, you're right - I don't care for a number of reasons. First, I have no idea who you are - you're just an anonymous poster - I just can't get worked up about somebody out there who is just a name. Second, this is just a discussion board - it's just a fun diversion from life and work - I can't take it too seriously. And, third, as I have said, I'm pretty confident that I have done my homework and have a decent idea of what is going on - I'm not offering emotional outbursts that sound like talk-radio BS.

I think again that those who feel the need to go after Marrone at this point are not being realistic about where this program was three years ago and how much has been done to improve things - and about how much more needs to be done. I think that those who offer the kind of fact-less generality that he's "over his head" reveal an unfortunate level of impatience that fails to truly consider the facts on the ground.

Sorry.

It's not "name calling," it's merely friendly advice for future reference. Name calling would be calling you an arrogant elitist. What I said is you can come across that way. Sorry if you fail to grasp the difference.

I don't think information is elitist...I think your arrogant posting style is elitist.

Please show me where I said I thought Marrone was in "over his head." I may have once said that there is evidence that he may be. I don't think there's enough to know for certain, and I never said he was.

I fully support Marrone, and while last season's collapse was a smack in the face of nearly every hopeful fan, that can easily be forgotten with a turnaround this season.

Posters with inside information have said that Marrone's seat is warm going into this season. I may have exaggerated when I said anything less than six wins would result in his firing, but if Marrone weren't under pressure then they would have extended his contract over the last six months. They didn't. Which means the administration likely expects something resembling a progression in 2012. Is back-to-back 5-7 seasons in the worst BCS conference in history progress? Not in my mind. But I know you disagree because, well, that's your shtick.

No need to be sorry. I agree with you that this forum is merely a diversion.

 

[OrangePA]

It's not "name calling," it's merely friendly advice for future reference. Name calling would be calling you an arrogant elitist. What I said is you can come across that way. Sorry if you fail to grasp the difference.

I don't think information is elitist...I think your arrogant posting style is elitist.

Please show me where I said I thought Marrone was in "over his head." I may have once said that there is evidence that he may be. I don't think there's enough to know for certain, and I never said he was.

I fully support Marrone, and while last season's collapse was a smack in the face of nearly every hopeful fan, that can easily be forgotten with a turnaround this season.

Posters with inside information have said that Marrone's seat is warm going into this season. I may have exaggerated when I said anything less than six wins would result in his firing, but if Marrone weren't under pressure then they would have extended his contract over the last six months. They didn't. Which means the administration likely expects something resembling a progression in 2012. Is back-to-back 5-7 seasons in the worst BCS conference in history progress? Not in my mind. But I know you disagree because, well, that's your shtick.

No need to be sorry. I agree with you that this forum is merely a diversion.

Now that's funny.

So, what you are now saying is basically this: "I didn't call you arrogrant or elitist, I simply said that your arrogant posting is elitist"

And, "I didn't say that Marrone is over his head, I just said there's evidence that he's over his head"

And, "I didn't mean that Marrone must go 6-6 to keep his job, I was just exaggerating."

Hey, way to be bold! I like a poster who has the courage of his convications!

So, now that I better understand, let me say this.

I don't think your posts know what they are talking about.

Not you mind you - just your posts. Of course I'm probably just exaggerating and mean only that there is evidence that your posts are way off base.

So, no need to be sorry!

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'm pretty confident that I understand what is going on and I'm pretty sure that there are a number of posters on this board who also understand what is going on. I don't think anyone who pays attention - who is a serious observer - agrees with you that Marrone is "over his head." I think most would agree - with some exceptions- the usual suspects - that Marrone has raised the level of play, has improved our recruiting base and has presented himself as a serious, thoughtful , committed and hard working manager of the Syracuse University Football Program. You and others may not agree with the decision to close spring practice - a really small matter in the scheme of things - but that decision represents a calculated decision to help improve the team. The decision is hardly an example of a HC being over his head.

I think again that those who feel the need to go after Marrone at this point are not being realistic about where this program was three years ago and how much has been done to improve things - and about how much more needs to be done. I think that those who offer the kind of fact-less generality that he's "over his head" reveal an unfortunate level of impatience that fails to truly consider the facts on the ground.

Sorry.

OPA, it's wonderful that you have such a thoroughly researched, well informed opinion. Kudos to you. I am stating that without an ounce of sarcasm or snideness. It really is a wonderful thing and an impressive accomplishment.

However, among the population of fans, you are a rare bird. There aren't many like you - you're basically 100% self-sustaining. That is a gift to the football program. You will be loyal to them, short of scandal I suspect.

There's a much bigger, and due to its size, a much more influential segment of the fan base for attendance and support that the program has to work a little more for though. Based on my interpretation of some posts, many here are concerned because that is a portion of the fan base that wants to be won over, and wants to go more games, and wants to be a bigger participant in the fan community than many ultimately choose to be, and many of us sense that the cumulative enticements to that fan are woefully insufficient to get them to participate. More troublesome is that some communication from the program to those fans and even some fans we have here to those fans appears to be downright hostile towards them gaining enough excitement and interest in the program to act.

That segment of the fan base doesn't really care about being a serious observer. They care about being a casual observer when its worthwhile to be. They're not concerned about how much better Marrone has positioned the program, they're just aware that we're still not very good. They're not concerned about the facilities or many of the topics of conversation here. They don't care to consider the facts on the ground as you have them. Ultimately, they don't really care about explaining why we aren't as good as we think we should be, they have simply noticed that we aren't as good as we think we should be and are staying away.

This fan asks themselves a few questions when it comes to following the program. First, is it worth the money? I see from time to time posts expressing ideas that fans should go because its the thing to do, true fans are obligated to go, and any complaints they have about attending games should be sucked up and dealt with. All of those ideas are shortsighted, unrealistic, and extremely course and judgmental towards that particular fan that is making (for themselves) a choice of financial sacrifice to participate in this particular type of entertainment. The size of the sacrifice doesn't matter as much of the acknowledgement that they are exercising a choice and that has consequences for them.

Second, this fan wants to know if it is worth their time. That question should terrify other fans, because it indicates that the fan either has lost passion they had supporting the program from a previous time, or the current experience is so out of touch with what they have previously enjoyed about being a fan that acting as a fan now is a completely different, and ultimately unsatisfying experience. Worse, when that fan gets in that state, we're no longer talking about the fan not going to games, we're talking about that fan not watching televised games or following the team with even casual interest. I'm at this stage right now - other parts of my life are more important than Syracuse football by a landslide and its not worth my time. For inexplicable reasons posting on the board is. I can't figure it out either. It's not important.

Third, the fan will ask if their support actually matters. I don't think many people that feel like their support doesn't matter feel much comfort from the short-armed handshake extension they may feel from the program and other fans.

So, add that up, and you can accuse that fan of being bandwagon or a front runner and openly question what they're worth and if we even want them to share in the experience, and here's the basic truth - the "real" fans (and program) need "those" fans more than "those" fans need the "real" fans (and program). You want to see the Dome flourish and recruiting and performance and buzz to ride on that? It will not happen without those fans. You real fans are a minority and are too small and too weak to do it alone. The smart play to me would seem to be less concerned with being right about the program, and more concerned about why there aren't enough fans deciding that its worth the money, worth their time, and that being a fan of Syracuse football means something. Hint: answers that can't be controlled (the poor end of the season was ok because every other team had better talent/we just don't win enough and when we get back to winning that will fix everything/the program can't be expected to compete with these facilities/well, we're better than when we had Robinson and that should be enough/we just need the ACC schedule) will make you feel good because you know you're right, but it won't do anything to help that fan. That fan you need.

This is as eloquently and reasoned as I can put my thoughts on this subject. I've tried to be as clear as I can. If people still don't understand, I have no choice but to chalk it up to shortcomings of the reader, and it was worth it for me anyway because it was a great warmup for some writing I need to do tonight.

Also, preemptively to Millhouse, if you don't like long posts stop reading them, and for heaven's sake don't respond to them.

 

[orangenirvana]

And, "I didn't say that Marrone is over his head, I just said there's evidence that he's over his head"

And, "I didn't mean that Marrone must go 6-6 to keep his job, I was just exaggerating."

Hey, way to be bold! I like a poster who has the courage of his convications!

I'm going to ignore most of your passive aggressive attacks and just focus on this if you don't mind.

I base my "convications" on overwhelming and sufficient factual evidence. If there's not sufficient evidence, then I'm not going to jump to any conclusions. I disagree that that would make me what you would consider indecisive or a coward. I would call it open-minded.

As for 2012 not being a "make or break season at all," let me put it this way:

Marrone's original contract was for through the 2013 season, correct? Which means after this season he will be a lame duck if he doesn't earn a contract extension, correct? I don't remember many if any college football coaches who enter a final season of a contract. It kills recruiting. So does Marrone earn a contract extension with a 5-7 season? It's an honest question.

I know your answer so this is really a question for the rest of the forum.

 

[tipphill]

wins bring the casual fan back,creates a better atmosphere, as for me facilities upgrades keep me as sth for two more years to see the impact---if none---i surrender and will convert to occaisional fan---no great loss to su or me. i just don't take it that seriously anymore. i also do not think its about marone--for the sake of boring people, he has nothing to sell the bigger time recruits---gotta have some tools---we don't have any.

 

[OrangePA]

I'm going to ignore most of your passive aggressive attacks and just focus on this if you don't mind.

I base my "convications" on overwhelming and sufficient factual evidence. If there's not sufficient evidence, then I'm not going to jump to any conclusions. I disagree that that would make me what you would consider indecisive or a coward. I would call it open-minded.

As for 2012 not being a "make or break season at all," let me put it this way:

Marrone's original contract was for through the 2013 season, correct? Which means after this season he will be a lame duck if he doesn't earn a contract extension, correct? I don't remember many if any college football coaches who enter a final season of a contract. It kills recruiting. So does Marrone earn a contract extension with a 5-7 season? It's an honest question.

I know your answer so this is really a question for the rest of the forum.

Attacks?

Passive aggressive?

Lighten up Francis.

I was just having fun with your post. I thought it was pretty funny actually.

 

[OrangePA]

OPA, it's wonderful that you have such a thoroughly researched, well informed opinion. Kudos to you. I am stating that without an ounce of sarcasm or snideness. It really is a wonderful thing and an impressive accomplishment.

However, among the population of fans, you are a rare bird. There aren't many like you - you're basically 100% self-sustaining. That is a gift to the football program. You will be loyal to them, short of scandal I suspect.

There's a much bigger, and due to its size, a much more influential segment of the fan base for attendance and support that the program has to work a little more for though. Based on my interpretation of some posts, many here are concerned because that is a portion of the fan base that wants to be won over, and wants to go more games, and wants to be a bigger participant in the fan community than many ultimately choose to be, and many of us sense that the cumulative enticements to that fan are woefully insufficient to get them to participate. More troublesome is that some communication from the program to those fans and even some fans we have here to those fans appears to be downright hostile towards them gaining enough excitement and interest in the program to act.

That segment of the fan base doesn't really care about being a serious observer. They care about being a casual observer when its worthwhile to be. They're not concerned about how much better Marrone has positioned the program, they're just aware that we're still not very good. They're not concerned about the facilities or many of the topics of conversation here. They don't care to consider the facts on the ground as you have them. Ultimately, they don't really care about explaining why we aren't as good as we think we should be, they have simply noticed that we aren't as good as we think we should be and are staying away.

This fan asks themselves a few questions when it comes to following the program. First, is it worth the money? I see from time to time posts expressing ideas that fans should go because its the thing to do, true fans are obligated to go, and any complaints they have about attending games should be sucked up and dealt with. All of those ideas are shortsighted, unrealistic, and extremely course and judgmental towards that particular fan that is making (for themselves) a choice of financial sacrifice to participate in this particular type of entertainment. The size of the sacrifice doesn't matter as much of the acknowledgement that they are exercising a choice and that has consequences for them.

Second, this fan wants to know if it is worth their time. That question should terrify other fans, because it indicates that the fan either has lost passion they had supporting the program from a previous time, or the current experience is so out of touch with what they have previously enjoyed about being a fan that acting as a fan now is a completely different, and ultimately unsatisfying experience. Worse, when that fan gets in that state, we're no longer talking about the fan not going to games, we're talking about that fan not watching televised games or following the team with even casual interest. I'm at this stage right now - other parts of my life are more important than Syracuse football by a landslide and its not worth my time. For inexplicable reasons posting on the board is. I can't figure it out either. It's not important.

Third, the fan will ask if their support actually matters. I don't think many people that feel like their support doesn't matter feel much comfort from the short-armed handshake extension they may feel from the program and other fans.

So, add that up, and you can accuse that fan of being bandwagon or a front runner and openly question what they're worth and if we even want them to share in the experience, and here's the basic truth - the "real" fans (and program) need "those" fans more than "those" fans need the "real" fans (and program). You want to see the Dome flourish and recruiting and performance and buzz to ride on that? It will not happen without those fans. You real fans are a minority and are too small and too weak to do it alone. The smart play to me would seem to be less concerned with being right about the program, and more concerned about why there aren't enough fans deciding that its worth the money, worth their time, and that being a fan of Syracuse football means something. Hint: answers that can't be controlled (the poor end of the season was ok because every other team had better talent/we just don't win enough and when we get back to winning that will fix everything/the program can't be expected to compete with these facilities/well, we're better than when we had Robinson and that should be enough/we just need the ACC schedule) will make you feel good because you know you're right, but it won't do anything to help that fan. That fan you need.

This is as eloquently and reasoned as I can put my thoughts on this subject. I've tried to be as clear as I can. If people still don't understand, I have no choice but to chalk it up to shortcomings of the reader, and it was worth it for me anyway because it was a great warmup for some writing I need to do tonight.

Also, preemptively to Millhouse, if you don't like long posts stop reading them, and for heaven's sake don't respond to them.

So, what you're saying is that the program needs more fans like me and fewer fans like you???

 

[xc84]

"You real fans are a minority and are too small and too weak to do it alone. "

There area about 30,000 die-hard fans who buy tickets to each game. That's 60% of dome capacity. That's the majority.