Melodramatic absolutely owning Lebron

[moqui]

see the segment beginning at 1:26

"and you and your opponent can go back and forth like this, until eventually the sun explodes"

looks like this thread is on that trajectory all right. it is now the 4th most commented upon thread on the board, and 2nd place is just 33 responses away.

I know you can do it, guys!

 

[44cuse]

44cuse can those stats be broken out into playoffs only? i think the perception is that kobe is more clutch then lebron comes from their playoff performances. being clutch in the regular season against the bobcats isn't what most of us picture when we think of clutch.

Yep, they are broken up into jut the playoffs earlier in the thread. The formatting isn't so great but the data is there.

It's gonna surprise you. Surprised me.

44cuse

 

[NineOneSeven]

Including 44cuse.

He doesn't have a reason too..

 

[jordoo]

Give me the stats for FG% with less than 24sec (shot clock) left in regulation or OT in games where your team is tied or trailing by 3 or less!

I haven't checked but I'd bet since Melo has been in the league he is by far the best in these situations.

You know the shots where everyone knows who is going shot and they still put it in your eye. Melo has made loads of these type of shots since he came into the league. That's pretty damn clutch IMO.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

We should all ignore Lebron's 28/8/7 and guarding the other teams best offensive player and lets focus in on the last second game winners against Milwaukee... that's really what is important.

 

[HOFCeluck]

That's not what you said.

OK. I pointed out his play in the ECF vs Detroit. You dismissed it because the NBA is fixed.

Your defense is bring up up a Tim Donaghy and a lot of heresay from around the NBA.

So according to you:

Advanced statistics = not acceptable because they are not universally recognized

Heresay and the word of a crooked referee = SOLID EVIDENCE

 

[44cuse]

Give me the stats for FG% with less than 24sec (shot clock) left in regulation or OT in games where your team is tied or trailing by 3 or less!

I haven't checked but I'd bet since Melo has been in the league he is by far the best in these situations.

You know the shots where everyone knows who is going shot and they still put it in your eye. Melo has made loads of these type of shots since he came into the league. That's pretty damn clutch IMO.

OK I ran the numbers but I did not aggregate them (EDIT, I did figure out how to aggregate them). So here they are broken out by years. Here is the criteria used for it: FG% with less than 24sec on the shot clock in the 4th qtr or OT (in the first data set for this season I limited the attempts to more than 7 because there are a lot of guys who have hit 1 for 1 which skews the data for the guys who have taken more shots.) This is regular season and playoffs combined.


EDIT: This formatting looks awful again. I could't get the link to work to find the table image so I tried to use the preformatted-text and that obviously didn't work.
2011-2012

Rk Player Season Tm G FG FGA FG% FGX 3P 3PA 3P% 3PX eFG% Astd %Astd​

1 Derrick Rose 2011-12 CHI 7 5 9 .556 4 1 1 1.000 0 .611 1 .200​

2 Carmelo Anthony 2011-12 NYK 7 5 9 .556 4 3 5 .600 2 .722 1 .200​

3 Al Jefferson 2011-12 UTA 7 4 8 .500 4 0 0 0 .500 1 .250​

4 Paul Millsap 2011-12 UTA 6 4 9 .444 5 1 2 .500 1 .500 1 .250​

5 Joe Johnson 2011-12 ATL 7 4 9 .444 5 3 5 .600 2 .611 1 .250​

6 Marcus Thornton 2011-12 SAC 5 3 7 .429 4 0 2 .000 2 .429 1 .333​

7 Chris Paul 2011-12 LAC 6 4 10 .400 6 0 3 .000 3 .400 0 .000​

8 Kevin Durant 2011-12 OKC 11 7 18 .389 11 3 9 .333 6 .472 4 .571​

9 Dirk Nowitzki 2011-12 DAL 5 3 8 .375 5 1 4 .250 3 .438 0 .000​

10 Kevin Love 2011-12 MIN 9 3 10 .300 7 2 7 .286 5 .400 2 .667​

11 Paul Pierce 2011-12 BOS 5 2 7 .286 5 1 3 .333 2 .357 2 1.000​

12 Jason Terry 2011-12 DAL 9 3 11 .273 8 1 4 .250 3 .318 0 .000​

13 Kobe Bryant 2011-12 LAL 11 3 13 .231 10 1 5 .200 4 .269 1 .333​

14 Louis Williams 2011-12 PHI 5 1 7 .143 6 0 4 .000 4 .143 0 .000​

2010-2011 (to account for the longer season, adjusted min attempts to 9)

Rk Player Season Tm G FG FGA FG% FGX 3P 3PA 3P% 3PX eFG% Astd %Astd​

1 Michael Beasley 2010-11 MIN 8 5 9 .556 4 0 3 .000 3 .556 1 .200​

2 Dirk Nowitzki 2010-11 DAL 9 5 9 .556 4 0 1 .000 1 .556 1 .200​

3 Carmelo Anthony 2010-11 TOT 8 6 11 .545 5 0 1 .000 1 .545 2 .333​

4 Manu Ginobili 2010-11 SAS 7 5 10 .500 5 0 3 .000 3 .500 2 .400​

5 Kobe Bryant 2010-11 LAL 7 4 9 .444 5 2 5 .400 3 .556 1 .250​

6 Rudy Gay 2010-11 MEM 9 4 10 .400 6 1 2 .500 1 .450 1 .250​

7 Derrick Rose 2010-11 CHI 9 4 11 .364 7 1 5 .200 4 .409 2 .500​

8 Deron Williams 2010-11 TOT 7 4 11 .364 7 0 1 .000 1 .364 1 .250​

9 Stephen Jackson 2010-11 CHA 8 3 9 .333 6 1 6 .167 5 .389 1 .333​

10 Hedo Turkoglu 2010-11 TOT 7 3 9 .333 6 3 7 .429 4 .500 2 .667​

11 Tyreke Evans 2010-11 SAC 9 3 11 .273 8 1 2 .500 1 .318 1 .333​

12 LeBron James 2010-11 MIA 8 2 10 .200 8 0 5 .000 5 .200 1 .500​

13 Russell Westbrook 2010-11 OKC 7 2 10 .200 8 0 3 .000 3 .200 0 .000​

14 Kevin Durant 2010-11 OKC 16 2 17 .118 15 2 8 .250 6 .176 1 .500​

15 Andre Iguodala 2010-11 PHI 9 1 11 .091 10 0 0 0 .091 0 .000​

2009-2010 (min attempts 9)

Rk Player Season Tm G FG FGA FG% FGX 3P 3PA 3P% 3PX eFG% Astd %Astd​

1 Kobe Bryant 2009-10 LAL 12 8 15 .533 7 3 6 .500 3 .633 3 .375​

2 Brandon Roy 2009-10 POR 7 4 9 .444 5 0 3 .000 3 .444 0 .000​

3 LeBron James 2009-10 CLE 8 6 15 .400 9 0 6 .000 6 .400 2 .333​

4 Carmelo Anthony 2009-10 DEN 7 4 10 .400 6 0 1 .000 1 .400 1 .250​

5 Brandon Jennings 2009-10 MIL 9 5 14 .357 9 1 6 .167 5 .393 0 .000​

6 O.J. Mayo 2009-10 MEM 7 3 9 .333 6 2 4 .500 2 .444 1 .333​

7 Joe Johnson 2009-10 ATL 8 3 11 .273 8 0 1 .000 1 .273 0 .000​

8 Dwyane Wade 2009-10 MIA 8 2 9 .222 7 1 4 .250 3 .278 0 .000​

9 Aaron Brooks 2009-10 HOU 8 2 9 .222 7 1 4 .250 3 .278 0 .000​

10 Andre Iguodala 2009-10 PHI 8 2 11 .182 9 2 6 .333 4 .273 2 1.000​

11 Derrick Rose 2009-10 CHI 11 2 13 .154 11 0 2 .000 2 .154 0 .000​

12 Kevin Durant 2009-10 OKC 12 2 15 .133 13 1 10 .100 9 .167 1 .500​

13 Russell Westbrook 2009-10 OKC 8 1 9 .111 8 0 6 .000 6 .111 0 .000​

2008-2009 (min attempts 9)

Rk Player Season Tm G FG FGA FG% FGX 3P 3PA 3P% 3PX eFG% Astd %Astd​

1 Ray Allen 2008-09 BOS 8 7 10 .700 3 6 8 .750 2 1.000 6 .857​

2 Danny Granger 2008-09 IND 11 8 12 .667 4 4 5 .800 1 .833 5 .625​

3 Deron Williams 2008-09 UTA 9 6 11 .545 5 0 1 .000 1 .545 1 .167​

4 Brandon Roy 2008-09 POR 8 5 10 .500 5 1 3 .333 2 .550 1 .200​

5 Rashard Lewis 2008-09 ORL 9 4 9 .444 5 3 7 .429 4 .611 4 1.000​

6 Ben Gordon 2008-09 CHI 12 7 16 .438 9 2 5 .400 3 .500 2 .286​

7 Vince Carter 2008-09 NJN 10 5 13 .385 8 3 7 .429 4 .500 3 .600​

8 Paul Pierce 2008-09 BOS 12 6 16 .375 10 1 3 .333 2 .406 2 .333​

9 Kevin Durant 2008-09 OKC 10 4 11 .364 7 2 5 .400 3 .455 3 .750​

10 Devin Harris 2008-09 NJN 9 4 11 .364 7 2 4 .500 2 .455 0 .000​

11 Andre Iguodala 2008-09 PHI 9 4 11 .364 7 1 4 .250 3 .409 0 .000​

12 Tony Parker 2008-09 SAS 7 3 11 .273 8 0 2 .000 2 .273 1 .333​

13 Kobe Bryant 2008-09 LAL 10 3 11 .273 8 1 4 .250 3 .318 0 .000​

14 Raymond Felton 2008-09 CHA 11 3 13 .231 10 0 2 .000 2 .231 0 .000​

15 Kevin Martin 2008-09 SAC 9 2 15 .133 13 1 6 .167 5 .167 0 .000​

2007-2008 (min attempts 9)

Rk Player Season Tm G FG FGA FG% FGX 3P 3PA 3P% 3PX eFG% Astd %Astd​

1 LeBron James 2007-08 CLE 16 9 19 .474 10 1 3 .333 2 .500 1 .111​

2 Ray Allen 2007-08 BOS 10 5 11 .455 6 4 7 .571 3 .636 3 .600​

3 Kevin Durant 2007-08 SEA 8 4 10 .400 6 3 5 .600 2 .550 4 1.000​

4 Rudy Gay 2007-08 MEM 9 4 11 .364 7 3 7 .429 4 .500 1 .250​

5 Deron Williams 2007-08 UTA 7 3 10 .300 7 2 6 .333 4 .400 1 .333​

6 Hedo Turkoglu 2007-08 ORL 9 3 10 .300 7 1 2 .500 1 .350 0 .000​

7 Jason Terry 2007-08 DAL 7 3 11 .273 8 0 4 .000 4 .273 0 .000​

8 Michael Redd 2007-08 MIL 7 2 9 .222 7 2 8 .250 6 .333 1 .500​

9 Dirk Nowitzki 2007-08 DAL 8 2 9 .222 7 2 6 .333 4 .333 2 1.000​

10 Dwyane Wade 2007-08 MIA 10 1 11 .091 10 0 4 .000 4 .091 0 .000​

11 Joe Johnson 2007-08 ATL 8 1 12 .083 11 0 4 .000 4 .083 0 .000​

Ok, so I was able to parse out the data and aggregate it. So the above is interesting (primarily so you can see that it varies wildly year to year...see Kobe in 09-10 vs 08-09 or 11-12, but this analysis here should be more interesting. For the data below I did the following:

1. Same filter criteria as above ( 24sec or less on shot clock, down 3 to tied, 4th qtr or OT, playoffs and reg season)
2. Min attempts in 2011-2012=7
3. Min attempts in all other seasons (2003-2011)=9
4. If there were more than 15, I took the top 15 by FG% (I think there were only 2 seasons where there were more than 15 and several seasons where there less)

65 players return as a part of this data run. I then removed anyone who only appeared in the data set for one season. That leaves 25 players with more than one season in the Top 15 of this data set. I don't know what the right cutoff should be, but I am going to go with 3 or more (ie: appears 30% of the time from 2003-current). 16 players are left and here is that data:

1. Carmelo Anthony: .518
2. Brandon Roy: .466
3. Ray Allen: .437
4. Deron Williams: .393
5. Dirk Nowitzki: .385
6. Derrick Rose: .358
7. LeBron James: .355
8. Vince Carter: .349
9. Kobe Bryant: .345
10. Michael Redd: .333
11. Paul Pierce: .331
12. Jason Terry: .282
13. Kevin Durant: .281
14. Joe Johnson: .275
15. Dwyane Wade: .226
16. Andre Iguodala: .212

Some interesting items here. First, Jordoo...you're right. And you're even more right in the sense that he is by far the best. Good call. Second, the popular belief that Kobe is this cold-blooded assassin may in fact be true in that he is willing to take the shot, but he is far from the most effective at making it. Three, the popular belief that LeBron isn't good in the clutch probably is a bit over exaggerated.

Some other interesting things:
1. Top individual FG% of all 65 players in 1 season: Ray Allen in 08-09 when he was .700 (7 for 10)
2. In terms of attempts, the top 5 are Kobe (106), LeBron (81), Vince Carter (71), Kevin Durant (71), Joe Johnson (63)

Pretty much to be expected in terms of Kobe's willingness to take the last shot (same with KD). But also sheds some light on the premise that LeBron is not willing to take the last shot.

44cuse

​

 

[RF2044]

OK I ran the numbers but I did not aggregate them (EDIT, I did figure out how to aggregate them). So here they are broken out by years. Here is the criteria used for it: FG% with less than 24sec on the shot clock in the 4th qtr or OT (in the first data set for this season I limited the attempts to more than 7 because there are a lot of guys who have hit 1 for 1 which skews the data for the guys who have taken more shots.) This is regular season and playoffs combined.


EDIT: This formatting looks awful again. I could't get the link to work to find the table image so I tried to use the preformatted-text and that obviously didn't work.
2011-2012

Rk Player Season Tm G FG FGA FG% FGX 3P 3PA 3P% 3PX eFG% Astd %Astd​

1 Derrick Rose 2011-12 CHI 7 5 9 .556 4 1 1 1.000 0 .611 1 .200​

2 Carmelo Anthony 2011-12 NYK 7 5 9 .556 4 3 5 .600 2 .722 1 .200​

3 Al Jefferson 2011-12 UTA 7 4 8 .500 4 0 0 0 .500 1 .250​

4 Paul Millsap 2011-12 UTA 6 4 9 .444 5 1 2 .500 1 .500 1 .250​

5 Joe Johnson 2011-12 ATL 7 4 9 .444 5 3 5 .600 2 .611 1 .250​

6 Marcus Thornton 2011-12 SAC 5 3 7 .429 4 0 2 .000 2 .429 1 .333​

7 Chris Paul 2011-12 LAC 6 4 10 .400 6 0 3 .000 3 .400 0 .000​

8 Kevin Durant 2011-12 OKC 11 7 18 .389 11 3 9 .333 6 .472 4 .571​

9 Dirk Nowitzki 2011-12 DAL 5 3 8 .375 5 1 4 .250 3 .438 0 .000​

10 Kevin Love 2011-12 MIN 9 3 10 .300 7 2 7 .286 5 .400 2 .667​

11 Paul Pierce 2011-12 BOS 5 2 7 .286 5 1 3 .333 2 .357 2 1.000​

12 Jason Terry 2011-12 DAL 9 3 11 .273 8 1 4 .250 3 .318 0 .000​

13 Kobe Bryant 2011-12 LAL 11 3 13 .231 10 1 5 .200 4 .269 1 .333​

14 Louis Williams 2011-12 PHI 5 1 7 .143 6 0 4 .000 4 .143 0 .000​

2010-2011 (to account for the longer season, adjusted min attempts to 9)

Rk Player Season Tm G FG FGA FG% FGX 3P 3PA 3P% 3PX eFG% Astd %Astd​

1 Michael Beasley 2010-11 MIN 8 5 9 .556 4 0 3 .000 3 .556 1 .200​

2 Dirk Nowitzki 2010-11 DAL 9 5 9 .556 4 0 1 .000 1 .556 1 .200​

3 Carmelo Anthony 2010-11 TOT 8 6 11 .545 5 0 1 .000 1 .545 2 .333​

4 Manu Ginobili 2010-11 SAS 7 5 10 .500 5 0 3 .000 3 .500 2 .400​

5 Kobe Bryant 2010-11 LAL 7 4 9 .444 5 2 5 .400 3 .556 1 .250​

6 Rudy Gay 2010-11 MEM 9 4 10 .400 6 1 2 .500 1 .450 1 .250​

7 Derrick Rose 2010-11 CHI 9 4 11 .364 7 1 5 .200 4 .409 2 .500​

8 Deron Williams 2010-11 TOT 7 4 11 .364 7 0 1 .000 1 .364 1 .250​

9 Stephen Jackson 2010-11 CHA 8 3 9 .333 6 1 6 .167 5 .389 1 .333​

10 Hedo Turkoglu 2010-11 TOT 7 3 9 .333 6 3 7 .429 4 .500 2 .667​

11 Tyreke Evans 2010-11 SAC 9 3 11 .273 8 1 2 .500 1 .318 1 .333​

12 LeBron James 2010-11 MIA 8 2 10 .200 8 0 5 .000 5 .200 1 .500​

13 Russell Westbrook 2010-11 OKC 7 2 10 .200 8 0 3 .000 3 .200 0 .000​

14 Kevin Durant 2010-11 OKC 16 2 17 .118 15 2 8 .250 6 .176 1 .500​

15 Andre Iguodala 2010-11 PHI 9 1 11 .091 10 0 0 0 .091 0 .000​

2009-2010 (min attempts 9)

Rk Player Season Tm G FG FGA FG% FGX 3P 3PA 3P% 3PX eFG% Astd %Astd​

1 Kobe Bryant 2009-10 LAL 12 8 15 .533 7 3 6 .500 3 .633 3 .375​

2 Brandon Roy 2009-10 POR 7 4 9 .444 5 0 3 .000 3 .444 0 .000​

3 LeBron James 2009-10 CLE 8 6 15 .400 9 0 6 .000 6 .400 2 .333​

4 Carmelo Anthony 2009-10 DEN 7 4 10 .400 6 0 1 .000 1 .400 1 .250​

5 Brandon Jennings 2009-10 MIL 9 5 14 .357 9 1 6 .167 5 .393 0 .000​

6 O.J. Mayo 2009-10 MEM 7 3 9 .333 6 2 4 .500 2 .444 1 .333​

7 Joe Johnson 2009-10 ATL 8 3 11 .273 8 0 1 .000 1 .273 0 .000​

8 Dwyane Wade 2009-10 MIA 8 2 9 .222 7 1 4 .250 3 .278 0 .000​

9 Aaron Brooks 2009-10 HOU 8 2 9 .222 7 1 4 .250 3 .278 0 .000​

10 Andre Iguodala 2009-10 PHI 8 2 11 .182 9 2 6 .333 4 .273 2 1.000​

11 Derrick Rose 2009-10 CHI 11 2 13 .154 11 0 2 .000 2 .154 0 .000​

12 Kevin Durant 2009-10 OKC 12 2 15 .133 13 1 10 .100 9 .167 1 .500​

13 Russell Westbrook 2009-10 OKC 8 1 9 .111 8 0 6 .000 6 .111 0 .000​

2008-2009 (min attempts 9)

Rk Player Season Tm G FG FGA FG% FGX 3P 3PA 3P% 3PX eFG% Astd %Astd​

1 Ray Allen 2008-09 BOS 8 7 10 .700 3 6 8 .750 2 1.000 6 .857​

2 Danny Granger 2008-09 IND 11 8 12 .667 4 4 5 .800 1 .833 5 .625​

3 Deron Williams 2008-09 UTA 9 6 11 .545 5 0 1 .000 1 .545 1 .167​

4 Brandon Roy 2008-09 POR 8 5 10 .500 5 1 3 .333 2 .550 1 .200​

5 Rashard Lewis 2008-09 ORL 9 4 9 .444 5 3 7 .429 4 .611 4 1.000​

6 Ben Gordon 2008-09 CHI 12 7 16 .438 9 2 5 .400 3 .500 2 .286​

7 Vince Carter 2008-09 NJN 10 5 13 .385 8 3 7 .429 4 .500 3 .600​

8 Paul Pierce 2008-09 BOS 12 6 16 .375 10 1 3 .333 2 .406 2 .333​

9 Kevin Durant 2008-09 OKC 10 4 11 .364 7 2 5 .400 3 .455 3 .750​

10 Devin Harris 2008-09 NJN 9 4 11 .364 7 2 4 .500 2 .455 0 .000​

11 Andre Iguodala 2008-09 PHI 9 4 11 .364 7 1 4 .250 3 .409 0 .000​

12 Tony Parker 2008-09 SAS 7 3 11 .273 8 0 2 .000 2 .273 1 .333​

13 Kobe Bryant 2008-09 LAL 10 3 11 .273 8 1 4 .250 3 .318 0 .000​

14 Raymond Felton 2008-09 CHA 11 3 13 .231 10 0 2 .000 2 .231 0 .000​

15 Kevin Martin 2008-09 SAC 9 2 15 .133 13 1 6 .167 5 .167 0 .000​

2007-2008 (min attempts 9)

Rk Player Season Tm G FG FGA FG% FGX 3P 3PA 3P% 3PX eFG% Astd %Astd​

1 LeBron James 2007-08 CLE 16 9 19 .474 10 1 3 .333 2 .500 1 .111​

2 Ray Allen 2007-08 BOS 10 5 11 .455 6 4 7 .571 3 .636 3 .600​

3 Kevin Durant 2007-08 SEA 8 4 10 .400 6 3 5 .600 2 .550 4 1.000​

4 Rudy Gay 2007-08 MEM 9 4 11 .364 7 3 7 .429 4 .500 1 .250​

5 Deron Williams 2007-08 UTA 7 3 10 .300 7 2 6 .333 4 .400 1 .333​

6 Hedo Turkoglu 2007-08 ORL 9 3 10 .300 7 1 2 .500 1 .350 0 .000​

7 Jason Terry 2007-08 DAL 7 3 11 .273 8 0 4 .000 4 .273 0 .000​

8 Michael Redd 2007-08 MIL 7 2 9 .222 7 2 8 .250 6 .333 1 .500​

9 Dirk Nowitzki 2007-08 DAL 8 2 9 .222 7 2 6 .333 4 .333 2 1.000​

10 Dwyane Wade 2007-08 MIA 10 1 11 .091 10 0 4 .000 4 .091 0 .000​

11 Joe Johnson 2007-08 ATL 8 1 12 .083 11 0 4 .000 4 .083 0 .000​

Ok, so I was able to parse out the data and aggregate it. So the above is interesting (primarily so you can see that it varies wildly year to year...see Kobe in 09-10 vs 08-09 or 11-12, but this analysis here should be more interesting. For the data below I did the following:

1. Same filter criteria as above ( 24sec or less on shot clock, down 3 to tied, 4th qtr or OT, playoffs and reg season)
2. Min attempts in 2011-2012=7
3. Min attempts in all other seasons (2003-2011)=9
4. If there were more than 15, I took the top 15 by FG% (I think there were only 2 seasons where there were more than 15 and several seasons where there less)

65 players return as a part of this data run. I then removed anyone who only appeared in the data set for one season. That leaves 25 players with more than one season in the Top 15 of this data set. I don't know what the right cutoff should be, but I am going to go with 3 or more (ie: appears 30% of the time from 2003-current). 16 players are left and here is that data:

1. Carmelo Anthony: .518
2. Brandon Roy: .466
3. Ray Allen: .437
4. Deron Williams: .393
5. Dirk Nowitzki: .385
6. Derrick Rose: .358
7. LeBron James: .355
8. Vince Carter: .349
9. Kobe Bryant: .345
10. Michael Redd: .333
11. Paul Pierce: .331
12. Jason Terry: .282
13. Kevin Durant: .281
14. Joe Johnson: .275
15. Dwyane Wade: .226
16. Andre Iguodala: .212

Some interesting items here. First, Jordoo...you're right. And you're even more right in the sense that he is by far the best. Good call. Second, the popular belief that Kobe is this cold-blooded assassin may in fact be true in that he is willing to take the shot, but he is far from the most effective at making it. Three, the popular belief that LeBron isn't good in the clutch probably is a bit over exaggerated.

Some other interesting things:
1. Top individual FG% of all 65 players in 1 season: Ray Allen in 08-09 when he was .700 (7 for 10)
2. In terms of attempts, the top 5 are Kobe (106), LeBron (81), Vince Carter (71), Kevin Durant (71), Joe Johnson (63)

Pretty much to be expected in terms of Kobe's willingness to take the last shot (same with KD). But also sheds some light on the premise that LeBron is not willing to take the last shot.

44cuse

​

44cuse--what a fantastic post.

Solid, solid analysis.

 

[KingOtis]

OK. I pointed out his play in the ECF vs Detroit. You dismissed it because the NBA is fixed.

Your defense is bring up up a Tim Donaghy and a lot of heresay from around the NBA.

So according to you:

Advanced statistics = not acceptable because they are not universally recognized

Heresay and the word of a crooked referee = SOLID EVIDENCE

That's a straw man argument if there ever was one.

 

[44cuse]

44cuse--what a fantastic post.

Solid, solid analysis.

Thanks RF. Appreciate that.

44cuse

 

[Knicks411]

Unfortunately everyone doesn't accept those numbers, so they don't count.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Really great stuff 44. Also kind of funny that everyone calls Dwayne Mr Clutch late in games. The numbers would suggest otherwise.

 

[44cuse]

Unfortunately everyone doesn't accept those numbers, so they don't count.

"Not universally accepted". It's too bad because they could tell a story.

44cuse

 

[HOFCeluck]

That's a straw man argument if there ever was one.

"There are players, coaches and owners who have suspected fixed outcomes - especially during the playoffs - over the years. This is nothing new. If you want me to provide examples, I would be happy to. But it's probably best reserved for another thread.

Donaghy outlined exactly what goes on. Go ahead and doubt him. But don't be surprised if and when he becomes the Jose Canseco of the NBA."

Those are your words. Sounds a lot like heresay and conjecture to me.

You dismissed advanced stats becasue they are not "universally recognized." Again, your words.

Help me out here. Or maybe we need to share our understanding of what a "strawman arguement" is.

Oh and great job RF.

 

[Knicks411]

"Not universally accepted". It's too bad because they could tell a story.

44cuse

Ha, I couldn't remember the exact wording and no chance was I going back through this thread to get it right

On the fixing games, is the assumption only Lebron gets games fixed for him? What if Kobe did?

I mean hell, I guess Dwayne Wade is considered a clutch closer because he has a title, and if you want an example of a possibly fixed series, I'd start with the 06 finals over any of Lebron's playfof series.

 

[KingOtis]

"There are players, coaches and owners who have suspected fixed outcomes - especially during the playoffs - over the years. This is nothing new. If you want me to provide examples, I would be happy to. But it's probably best reserved for another thread.

Donaghy outlined exactly what goes on. Go ahead and doubt him. But don't be surprised if and when he becomes the Jose Canseco of the NBA."

Those are your words. Sounds a lot like heresay and conjecture to me.

You dismissed advanced stats becasue they are not "universally recognized." Again, your words.

Help me out here. Or maybe we need to share our understanding of what a "strawman arguement" is.

"expects everyone to take his grassy knoll theories about the NBA at face value."

Never said that.

"Heresay and the word of a crooked referee = SOLID EVIDENCE"

Never said that either.

 

[HOFCeluck]

"expects everyone to take his grassy knoll theories about the NBA at face value."

Never said that.

"Heresay and the word of a crooked referee = SOLID EVIDENCE"

Never said that either.

Wow

 

[KingOtis]

Wow

"Wow" what? I couldn't care less if you or anyone else agrees that the NBA is fixed. I certainly don't expect you to, nor do I want you to or need you to.

I also have no problem if you don't believe Tim Donaghy, Ray Allen, Jeff Van Gundy, Mark Cuban or anyone else. I can live with that. That's the difference between me an 44cuse. I'm not interested in his sabermetrics and he takes offense. He's not interested in conspiracy theories (neither are you, obviously) and that's just fine by me.

I offered to talk about it more in another thread. If you or anyone else doesn't want to hear it, no harm done. Makes no difference to me either way.

 

[HOFCeluck]

"Wow" what? I couldn't care less if you or anyone else agrees that the NBA is fixed. I certainly don't expect you to, nor do I want you to or need you to.

I also have no problem if you don't believe Tim Donaghy, Ray Allen, Jeff Van Gundy, Mark Cuban or anyone else. I can live with that. That's the difference between me an 44cuse. I'm not interested in his sabermetrics and he takes offense. He's not interested in conspiracy theories (neither are you, obviously) and that's just fine by me.

I offered to talk about it more in another thread. If you or anyone else doesn't want to hear it, no harm done. Makes no difference to me either way.

I'd like to know how you rig a playoff game so one guy scores 25 straight points, and what the motive is, but I'll wait for another day.

I just find it "interesting" that you have no issue believing conspiracy theories but statistics that are pretty well regarded are a huge leap for you.

 

[Knicks411]

Also, there were a ton of playoff and clutch stats in here that weren't sabermetric at all. Just simple stuff like shooting%.

 

[KingOtis]

Also, there were a ton of playoff and clutch stats in here that weren't sabermetric at all. Just simple stuff like shooting%.

The problem there is the difficulty in defining what clutch is. 82games.com has redefined the meaning several times.

I started saying sabermetric for simplicity's sake.

 

[KingOtis]

I'd like to know how you rig a playoff game so one guy scores 25 straight points, and what the motive is, but I'll wait for another day.

I just find it "interesting" that you have no issue believing conspiracy theories but statistics that are pretty well regarded are a huge leap for you.

In some circles they're "pretty well regarded", but not all. In some circles, intelligent design is "pretty well regarded."

Jerry West gave some of these advanced statistics a test drive when he was in Memphis. It didn't work out that well. Meanwhile, Mark Cuban hired a private firm to look into NBA officiating. Although it's not public what became of that, the Mavs did win a title and it's not outside the realm of possibility that any trends discovered during the investigation worked to their advantage.

 

[HOFCeluck]

In some circles they're "pretty well regarded", but not all. In some circles, intelligent design is "pretty well regarded."

Jerry West gave some of these advanced statistics a test drive when he was in Memphis. It didn't work out that well. Meanwhile, Mark Cuban hired a private firm to look into NBA officiating. Although it's not public what became of that, the Mavs did win a title and it's not outside the realm of possibility that any trends discovered during the investigation worked to their advantage.

OK based on this I have decided that it's impossible to discuss this with you.

Enjoy.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

I never imagined what this thread would become. Good work gents.

I don't think there has ever been an NBA thread on here that I ever enjoyed even 10% as much as this one.

 

[Knicks411]

Aren't the Mavs heavily into advanced stats? They even hired the guy who started 82games.com!