Melodramatic absolutely owning Lebron

[KingOtis]

Wow...you just can't follow along can you?

1. The NBA is fixed

We don;t need to go beyond that. That was your argument. That really does say it all.

Tim Donaghy. Real or not real?

But I gave you more than just "sabermetrics" as you want to call it. Go back. Read the post. Look at the stats, from the NBA, then come back to me.

What stats did you post that were not the NBA equivalent of sabermetrics? Have you posted anything other than Hollinger, Win Shares, or 82games.com? If you have, I missed it.

And LOL...you don't even know what begging the question means. You've proven that.

So you looked up the definition of "begging the question" tonight and now you think you're an expert. I very clearly explained how you're begging the question. By definition, that explanation is accurate.

I've given you evidence. You have not provided a single fact in this entire topic. Not one. You merely post your observations. Which happen to be wrong.

How can it be wrong to state an opinion? What's funny is that you've provided very little in the way of observations. Your opinions are based almost entirely on stats that aren't universally recognized. What's the problem? Are you not confident enough in your own personal observations? Do we really need a website to define what clutch is? Can't we tell from watching the games ourselves?

 

[skurey]

Well when your observations differ so vastly from what the stats tell you then I'd say you aren't qualified to be making these observations and your opinion is in fact wrong.

 

[KingOtis]

Well when your observations differ so vastly from what the stats tell you then I'd say you aren't qualified to be making these observations and your opinion is in fact wrong.

I'm Pro-Choice. In my opinion, life begins at some point between conception and birth. A Pro-Lifer claims there is biological evidence that proves life begins at conception. I disagree by stating that their theory is not universally supported by scientists. Am I wrong? Is my original opinion wrong?

Other than the subject matter, how is this debate any different?

Furthermore, if it was accepted as fact that LeBron James is the best player in the NBA, then debates such as these would cease to exist. Until then, it's a matter of opinion.

 

[44cuse]

Tim Donaghy. Real or not real?



What stats did you post that were not the NBA equivalent of sabermetrics? Have you posted anything other than Hollinger, Win Shares, or 82games.com? If you have, I missed it.



So you looked up the definition of "begging the question" tonight and now you think you're an expert. I very clearly explained how you're begging the question. By definition, that explanation is accurate.



How can it be wrong to state an opinion? What's funny is that you've provided very little in the way of observations. Your opinions are based almost entirely on stats that aren't universally recognized. What's the problem? Are you not confident enough in your own personal observations? Do we really need a website to define what clutch is? Can't we tell from watching the games ourselves?

Here you go:

Did Tim Donaghy ref every game in the NBA? Did he ref the games you were talking about?

Facts (now posted for the third time):

It's like arguing with a child who repeats the same thing over and over and over again.

You have yet to list a single fact in this discussion. Yet three independent sources draw the same conclusion and your response is: The NBA is fixed and "begs the question". Just keep giving us your opinions.

Here is your exact quote: "And as I stated above, the Pistons series was fixed." So prove to us how that series was fixed. If you don't give me a stat...or a fact...well, you know the answer.

You will forever go down as the guy who argues a point with the NBA is fixed.

Here's another beauty: "We've already seen what happens when you build a team around James."
Yep, we have. He takes both teams he has played for to the NBA finals. So you have that one going for you.

And, btw, Otis Hill is not the best SU center of all time. So you got that one wrong as well. Add it to the list. Here is your statement: "I'm obviously paying homage to the greatest center in Syracuse history."

Etan Thomas, Roosevelt Bouie, and Rony Seikaly were all better than Otis Hill (and Otis Hill is one of my favorite players of all time).

44cuse

 

[44cuse]

I dont care what any interpretation of a bunch of stats accumulated when Lebron played for the Cavs say. OMG, he hit one game winning shot from half court 5 years ago. Adios, Kobe is more clutch than Lebron.

Before this morning, I would have said the same thing. Never would I have believed what I found when I looked it up. My argument was always that I would rather have the guy who was the better player over the first 47 minutes. As far as the final minute was concerned, I prefer the player who looks for an open teammate over a fade-away rising up over two defenders. But I do recognize that's a preference and some may want the guy who just flat out takes the shot. No problem with that. But check these out (just found these tonight):

Final 24 Seconds (playoffs only since 2000)
Player FG FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3P% Ast'd %Ast'd
Kobe 6 27 0.286 1 8 0.125 1 0.167
LeBron 5 12 0.417 1 3 0.333 1 0.200
Wade 2 5 0.400 2 0 0.000 0 0.000

Final Minute (playoffs only since 2000)
Player FG FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3P% Ast'd %Ast'd
Kobe 10 31 0.323 2 10 0.200 2 0.200
LeBron 10 20 0.500 1 3 0.333 1 0.100
Wade 3 10 0.300 1 5 0.200 1 0.333

"Clutch" (playoffs since 200) 4th QTR and OT under 5 to play 5 pt game or less
Player FG FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3P% Ast'd %Ast'd
Kobe 81 203 0.399 11 41 0.268 12 0.148
LeBron 70 154 0.455 17 48 0.354 10 0.143
Wade 39 102 0.382 4 15 0.267 5 0.128

I can't get the formatting to come across, but this also surprised me. LeBron ranked higher than Kobe in 7 of the 8 categories (including the 3 playoff scenarios from above):

"Clutch" since 2000
"Clutch" since 2006
Final Minute since 2000
Final Minute since 2006
Final 24 seconds since 2006
Both interesting and surprising at the same time.

EDIT: Crap...this formatting is worse than I originally thought. Sorry it's so unreadable. I can't figure out how to get these charts to show up as an individual web page to embed them here.

44cuse

 

[skurey]

I'm Pro-Choice. In my opinion, life begins at some point between conception and birth. A Pro-Lifer claims there is biological evidence that proves life begins at conception. I disagree by stating that their theory is not universally supported by scientists. Am I wrong? Is my original opinion wrong?

Other than the subject matter, how is this debate any different?

Furthermore, if it was accepted as fact that LeBron James is the best player in the NBA, then debates such as these would cease to exist. Until then, it's a matter of opinion.

It's pretty universally accepted by those who actually follow the NBA

 

[NineOneSeven]

This thread begs the question..

If a tree falls in the woods, and nobody was around to hear it, does ESPN still have a front page article for a pathological liar in Zach Tomaselli?

 

[kirbivore]

Hopefully the current standings hold up and we get a Miami/New York 1st round match up.

 

[KingOtis]

Here you go:

Did Tim Donaghy ref every game in the NBA? Did he ref the games you were talking about?

He's not an anomaly. There are players, coaches and owners who have suspected fixed outcomes - especially during the playoffs - over the years. This is nothing new. If you want me to provide examples, I would be happy to. But it's probably best reserved for another thread.

Donaghy outlined exactly what goes on. Go ahead and doubt him. But don't be surprised if and when he becomes the Jose Canseco of the NBA.

Facts (now posted for the third time):

Please tell me where I can find these specific facts on NBA.com.

It's like arguing with a child who repeats the same thing over and over and over again.

Someone's projecting. You're repeating yourself just as much as I am.

Yet three independent sources draw the same conclusion

None of which are universally recognized.

and your response is: The NBA is fixed

You will forever go down as the guy who argues a point with the NBA is fixed.

Straw man. That was in response to a game, not your precious sabermetrics.

But I guess that means I have something in common with Ray Allen, Jeff Van Gundy and Mark Cuban, among others. There are probably more people who have worked or are currently working in the NBA that believe some games are fixed than there are who pay attention to sabermetrics.

Here's another beauty: "We've already seen what happens when you build a team around James."
Yep, we have. He takes both teams he has played for to the NBA finals. So you have that one going for you.

So you're suggesting that the Miami Heat are built around James? I think Wade might take exception with that argument.

And, btw, Otis Hill is not the best SU center of all time. So you got that one wrong as well. Add it to the list. Here is your statement: "I'm obviously paying homage to the greatest center in Syracuse history."

And I was obviously kidding.

 

[EastCoast2]

this just got real

 

[44cuse]

He's not an anomaly. There are players, coaches and owners who have suspected fixed outcomes - especially during the playoffs - over the years. This is nothing new. If you want me to provide examples, I would be happy to. But it's probably best reserved for another thread.

Donaghy outlined exactly what goes on. Go ahead and doubt him. But don't be surprised if and when he becomes the Jose Canseco of the NBA.



Please tell me where I can find these specific facts on NBA.com.



Someone's projecting. You're repeating yourself just as much as I am.



None of which are universally recognized.



Straw man. That was in response to a game, not your precious sabermetrics.

But I guess that means I have something in common with Ray Allen, Jeff Van Gundy and Mark Cuban, among others. There are probably more people who have worked or are currently working in the NBA that believe some games are fixed than there are who pay attention to sabermetrics.



So you're suggesting that the Miami Heat are built around James? I think Wade might take exception with that argument.



And I was obviously kidding.

You are the only person I have ever had this discussion with that blatantly disregards advanced stats because they aren't "universally accepted".

Wow. You are a weird dude. I've had too much fun in this thread. I'm going to go the way others have in this thread. I can't decide if I think it's admirable that you hung on to such a useless set of arguments or just plain odd. You still have yet to provide any evidence that the Eastern Conference Finals with the Cavs were fixed. It is not "universally agreed" that the Eastern Conference Finals was fixed therefore it should not be dignified with a response. So I guess you are begging the question.

You didn't say "some games". You said the ECF in a specific response to a LeBron performance. You cant have it both ways. Still waiting to see that evidence of how that specific series was fixed.

Exactly what you said: "And as I stated above, the Pistons series was fixed."

"precious" sabermetrics...awww touch a nerve? Getting a little defensive?

"Straw man. That was in response to a game, not your precious sabermetrics."

Having a little trouble tracking? That was not in response to a specific game. It was in response to you absurd set of claims. At least track accurately. But just for the sake of making sure we are all on the same page, here is exactly what you said:

"He's not the best player in the NBA. Look at what Melo did against the Bulls last Sunday. Has James ever done that?"

To which you given data. And, it was pointed out that not only did LeBron do that...he did it in the playoffs, which you never acknowledged or addressed (THEME WARNING!)

To which you responded with: "Sorry, I haven't bought into John Hollinger..."

So, this had nothing to do with a single game as you can clearly see.

I just listed out again the number of times you were flat out wrong in this thread and deleted. It just wasn't worth it.

Believe what you want to believe. You have shown everyone here that your basis is: The NBA is Fixed and you failed to address or refute a single fact in the entire thread. And it's not just me pointing that out.

44cuse

 

[44cuse]

It's pretty universally accepted by those who actually follow the NBA

The Eastern Conference Finals were fixed. Apparently that is universally accepted.

44cuse

 

[KingOtis]

You are the only person I have ever had this discussion with that blatantly disregards advanced stats because they aren't "universally accepted".

Wow. You are a weird dude. I've had too much fun in this thread. I'm going to go the way others have in this thread. I can't decide if I think it's admirable that you hung on to such a useless set of arguments or just plain odd. You still have yet to provide any evidence that the Eastern Conference Finals with the Cavs were fixed. It is not "universally agreed" that the Eastern Conference Finals was fixed therefore it should not be dignified with a response. So I guess you are begging the question.

I just listed out again the number of times you were flat out wrong in this thread and deleted. It just wasn't worth it.

Believe what you want to believe. You have shown everyone here that your basis is: The NBA is Fixed and you failed to address or refute a single fact in the entire thread. And it's not just me pointing that out.

Well, I guess we now know what happens when your beliefs are actually challenged.

If you had the upper hand, you wouldn't need to resort to insults and straw man arguments. And are you really contending that just because a few people are on your side, that means you're right? That's the card you're playing now?

What this comes down to is very simple. It's a subjective debate, so opinions and observations are perfectly acceptable. You chose to cite some stats, which is also fine. The problem is that your stats aren't universally recognized. I believe you conceded as much in regards to Win Shares, although that might have been someone else. So instead of offering up something - anything - else (your own personal observations, for example), you chose to keep regurgitating the same stats over and over and over.

There are three independent sources that claim global warming is a myth, that doesn't make it true.

 

[44cuse]

Well, I guess we now know what happens when your beliefs are actually challenged.

If you had the upper hand, you wouldn't need to resort to insults and straw man arguments. And are you really contending that just because a few people are on your side, that means you're right? That's the card you're playing now?

What this comes down to is very simple. It's a subjective debate, so opinions and observations are perfectly acceptable. You chose to cite some stats, which is also fine. The problem is that your stats aren't universally recognized. I believe you conceded as much in regards to Win Shares, although that might have been someone else. So instead of offering up something - anything - else (your own personal observations, for example), you chose to keep regurgitating the same stats over and over and over.

There are three independent sources that claim global warming is a myth, that doesn't make it true.

Yeah, we do know: I gave you facts.
Here is what else we know: You have been asked repeatedly to provide facts around your wildly ridiculous claims and choose to never address them.
Again: Show us where the Pistons/Cavs series was fixed. Or are you backing off that claim?

And I noticed you failed to address where you were wrong again:

"Straw man. That was in response to a game, not your precious sabermetrics."

Having a little trouble tracking? That was not in response to a specific game. It was in response to you absurd set of claims. At least track accurately. But just for the sake of making sure we are all on the same page, here is exactly what you said:

"He's not the best player in the NBA. Look at what Melo did against the Bulls last Sunday. Has James ever done that?"

To which you given data. And, it was pointed out that not only did LeBron do that...he did it in the playoffs, which you never acknowledged or addressed (THEME WARNING!)

But everyone can now see your M.O. (disregard facts, make wild assertions, selectively respond)...

When my beliefs are challenged, I provide data. You choose to disregard that data because it proves you wrong. That is what everyone saw here on this thread.

You make wild statements and back nothing up. That is also what everyone saw here on this thread.

You have now wasted enough of my time.

44cuse

 

[NineOneSeven]

44cuse my advice- just stop man...some people just don't budge.

 

[44cuse]

44cuse my advice- just stop man...some people just don't budge.

Took me too long to get to this point:

"You have now wasted enough of my time."

You are right.

44cuse

 

[KingOtis]

Yeah, we do know: I gave you facts.

Yes, we've established your belief in those facts. And when the legitimacy of those facts was challenged, you presented the facts again.

Here is what else we know: You have been asked repeatedly to provide facts around your wildly ridiculous claims and choose to never address them.
Again: Show us where the Pistons/Cavs series was fixed. Or are you backing off that claim?

Not true. I offered to discuss that in another thread. You ignored that part. Does that mean you're selectively responding?

"Straw man. That was in response to a game, not your precious sabermetrics."

Having a little trouble tracking? That was not in response to a specific game. It was in response to you absurd set of claims. At least track accurately. But just for the sake of making sure we are all on the same page, here is exactly what you said:

"He's not the best player in the NBA. Look at what Melo did against the Bulls last Sunday. Has James ever done that?"

To which you given data. And, it was pointed out that not only did LeBron do that...he did it in the playoffs, which you never acknowledged or addressed (THEME WARNING!)

In other words, it was in response to a game. You're the one having trouble tracking. "That was in response to a game" was obviously referring to my response. You brought up the game, I responded by saying it was fixed. At no point in time did I respond to any of your sabermetrics by stating that the NBA is fixed.

But everyone can now see your M.O. (disregard facts, make wild assertions, selectively respond)...

That stuff isn't going to work with me. You can act like everyone is on your side, but the reality of the situation is that most people at this point don't care. And your M.O. includes projection, begging the question, personal attacks and straw man arguments.

When my beliefs are challenged, I provide data/

It's your data that was challenged.

 

[KingOtis]

some people just don't budge.

Including 44cuse.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I love the fact that Otis rejects advanced stats but expects everyone to take his grassy knoll theories about the NBA at face value.

 

[KingOtis]

I love the fact that Otis rejects advanced stats but expects everyone to take his grassy knoll theories about the NBA at face value.

Not true.

 

[orangehomer]

Took me too long to get to this point:

"You have now wasted enough of my time."

You are right.

44cuse

44cuse can those stats be broken out into playoffs only? i think the perception is that kobe is more clutch then lebron comes from their playoff performances. being clutch in the regular season against the bobcats isn't what most of us picture when we think of clutch.

 

[Knicks411]

Pretty sure they were broken out into the playoffs in this thread.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Not true.

So you haven't been saying that "the NBA is fixed" as a rebuttal and then offer no facts to back it up?

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

I imagine Melo hasn't been very clutch in the post season. 41% playoff shooter and his teams only advanced past round 1 once..

He is certainly great at "getting to" the postseason, as KingOtis outlined.

 

[KingOtis]

So you haven't been saying that "the NBA is fixed" as a rebuttal and then offer no facts to back it up?

That's not what you said.