Modify the one and done rule

[Cusefan0307]

the NBA and the Player's Association ratified a new CBA in December. It runs through the 2023-24 season (with an opt out after the 2022-23 season). The left the "one and done" rule intact, so it is pointless to talk about changing it for the next 5 years.

FWIW silver said it could be a discussion had outside of negotiations...

 

[Briancuse]

Yeah cause 1 year makes such a difference.

For some people it does, I was just watching this show, and Kenyan Martin was talking about the one and done rule, and he said he is really glad that he stayed all 4 years, and he needed ever bit of it.

 

[Briancuse]

That's B.S.
First of all, guys play their way out of professional sports every year. Lots of guys can't play at that level, each year.
Also, if guys aren't ready, or wont be able go play relatively soon, they don't draft them with the idea of playing them.
Nobody seems to care that the NFL drafts QBs who aren't ready to play right away.

So why are we encouraging those guys to make mistakes like that?

 

[UnknownOrange]

For some people it does, I was just watching this show, and Kenyan Martin was talking about the one and done rule, and he said he is really glad that he stayed all 4 years, and he needed ever bit of it.

We can pick individuals out all day -- the point is there are ALWAYS going to be guys that are ready who get drafted, ALWAYS going to be guys that are NOT ready who get drafted. Whether they are 18 or 22 is irrelevant. It is up to the team to decide if they can make it work. It's not solely a players fault if they don't pan out and it's not a guarantee that they would had they gone to college for a year,2,3, or 4.

 

[cuseincincy]

For some people it does, I was just watching this show, and Kenyan Martin was talking about the one and done rule, and he said he is really glad that he stayed all 4 years, and he needed ever bit of it.

Yep. KMart may not have been drafted after his junior year. His senior year he was the best player in the country and went #1. KMart was the same player as Etan Thomas for most of his career. Good rebounder, defender, shot blocker, dunker etc. And then all of a sudden as a senior he was automatic from 18-19 feet.

 

[sufandu]

reading Kareems comments about the broken system, they should just add one more rule to the one and done..

kids can leave after one.

but the school is on the hook for 3-4 years or until they graduate with the scholie counting towards the limit, or pick some number of years > than 1..

bring in all the 1 and done you want but you dont get it back when they leave..

you can they play the one and done game , but you cant bring in 5-6 every year. teams would have to more careful and it would make the 1 and doners spread around far much more.. it would make the NCAA game move towards kids who want an education which is where it should really be,

What about the guys that leave early that weren't anticipated to? We'd be screwed. Ennis wasn't considered one and done as a high school player and Lydon wasn't considered 2 and done.

It's an NBA rule. You can't penalize schools for when a player decides to leave based on a pro league's rule. Kareem is placing blame on the wrong institution.

 

[sufandu]

Let's not worry about how to keep kids out of the NBA for our enjoyment.

The NHL starts drafting kids at 16, through the Jr. leagues.

Soccer takes kids into academies as early as 8-9.

Baseball drafts HS kids.

Tennis and golf let you be pros at 16.

Kids get to be actors and musicians with no age restraint.

Let the kids go make money.

And nobody watches any of those other sports.

Let the employer establish their entry level requirements like every other industry.

 

[sufandu]

Yeah cause 1 year makes such a difference.

One year was intended to allow scouts to see prospects against higher level competition to better separate the wheat from the chaff in the cases of players that weren't obvious stars like Lebron.

I suspect they wanted more than one year too, but that's what they were able to negotiate with the PA.

 

[JLine]

For some people it does, I was just watching this show, and Kenyan Martin was talking about the one and done rule, and he said he is really glad that he stayed all 4 years, and he needed ever bit of it.

For one, that was a long time ago. Seniors rarely go high in the draft these days. For every Kenyon, or Buddy Hield, there's a lot more like Paul Harris that missed out on their payday because they had to go to school. Paul probably doesn't make it long, but at least would have got a shot, and over a million in the bank. Then, he could have went elsewhere, and kept making money as he did anyway. Just missed out on that original chunk of money, and years of pay in a career that has a short shelf life.

No need for Porter Jr. and many others to go to school except get hurt, or show they aren't as good as advertised.

CFB makes sense as a kid going straight to the NFL may get mauled. MLB they have a choice. The NBA forces kids to potentially ruin their stock, or career via injury or underperforming. Many aren't going to school to learn. Those who can't qualify get screwed, and may end up missing out on their dream.

 

[sufandu]

For one, that was a long time ago. Seniors rarely go high in the draft these days. For every Kenyon, or Buddy Hield, there's a lot more like Paul Harris that missed out on their payday because they had to go to school. Paul probably doesn't make it long, but at least would have got a shot, and over a million in the bank. Then, he could have went elsewhere, and kept making money as he did anyway. Just missed out on that original chunk of money, and years of pay in a career that has a short shelf life.

No need for Porter Jr. and many others to go to school except get hurt, or show they aren't as good as advertised.

CFB makes sense as a kid going straight to the NFL may get mauled. MLB they have a choice. The NBA forces kids to potentially ruin their stock, or career via injury or underperforming. Many aren't going to school to learn. Those who can't qualify get screwed, and may end up missing out on their dream.

That's just it. The future employer wants to avoid the busts as much as possible. They'll never get it perfect but they have the right to organize the screening process they feel benefits them. Right now that's watching prospects play college ball.

The idea that a 18-19 year old is entitled to a million dollar payday before their employer realizes they're incompetent is crazy. We don't think like that with any other career path, including sports. Why do we for basketball?

Tennis and golf mentioned above are individual sports. Compensation is directly related to performance with proof of performance preceding compensation. In the other team sports players either wait to be eligible or prove themselves by working their way through a minor league system. In either case the system is set up by the employer.

 

[JLine]

That's just it. The future employer wants to avoid the busts as much as possible. They'll never get it perfect but they have the right to organize the screening process they feel benefits them. Right now that's watching prospects play college ball.

The idea that a 18-19 year old is entitled to a million dollar payday before their employer realizes they're incompetent is crazy. We don't think like that with any other career path, including sports. Why do we for basketball?

Tennis and golf mentioned above are individual sports. Compensation is directly related to performance with proof of performance preceding compensation. In the other team sports players either wait to be eligible or prove themselves by working their way through a minor league system. In either case the system is set up by the employer.

That's fine. It's up to them, but they get it wrong just as much as they probably would without having a year to watch. The top players coming out of HS, for the most part still end up being top draft picks. Simmons didn't move. Fultz didn't move. Look at the 2016 class, and mock drafts. I'd guess Porter Jr. won't move unless he gets hurt. There's plenty big of a sample size coming out of HS, especially with AAU and all these tournaments. Hami didn't play a second, and will get drafted off his HS play. They also have the combine, and workouts for their future employees.

 

[sufandu]

That's fine. It's up to them, but they get it wrong just as much as they probably would without having a year to watch. The top players coming out of HS, for the most part still end up being top draft picks. Simmons didn't move. Fultz didn't move. I'd guess Porter Jr. won't move unless he gets hurt. There's plenty big of a sample size coming out of HS, especially with AAU and all these tournaments. Hami didn't play a second, and will get drafted off his HS play. They also have the combine, and workouts for their future employees.

There were a bunch more guys declaring straight out of high school that had no business doing so before one and done. Teams were taking flyers on some because it was less damaging to make a mistake than possibly pass on the next Lebron. One and done exposed some of them and a 2 or 3 year rule would probably do it even more accurately. How many times do players that stay in school get ridiculed on here because they should've jumped before getting exposed. That's great advice for the player, but the NBA wants every opportunity to expose them so they can increase the odds of making good picks. Lydon wasn't considered a 1 or 2 year and done prospect out of HS. If he's made himself into a first round pick that means other previously higher rated prospects dropped. That wouldn't have happened without a year or two of evaluation in college.

 

[UnknownOrange]

There were a bunch more guys declaring straight out of high school that had no business doing so before one and done. Teams were taking flyers on some because it was less damaging to make a mistake than possibly pass on the next Lebron. One and done exposed some of them and a 2 or 3 year rule would probably do it even more accurately. How many times do players that stay in school get ridiculed on here because they should've jumped before getting exposed. That's great advice for the player, but the NBA wants every opportunity to expose them so they can increase the odds of making good picks. Lydon wasn't considered a 1 or 2 year and done prospect out of HS. If he's made himself into a first round pick that means other previously higher rated prospects dropped. That wouldn't have happened without a year or two of evaluation in college.

There are many guys who go after 1 year who shouldn't either. You're always going to have guys going to the league and not pan out. You're not minimizing anything by having a one and done rule - only 60 guys are getting drafted every year. Some years you'll have a lot of flops, other years you won't.

 

[Ward]

That's just it. The future employer wants to avoid the busts as much as possible. They'll never get it perfect but they have the right to organize the screening process they feel benefits them. Right now that's watching prospects play college ball.

The idea that a 18-19 year old is entitled to a million dollar payday before their employer realizes they're incompetent is crazy. We don't think like that with any other career path, including sports. Why do we for basketball?

Tennis and golf mentioned above are individual sports. Compensation is directly related to performance with proof of performance preceding compensation. In the other team sports players either wait to be eligible or prove themselves by working their way through a minor league system. In either case the system is set up by the employer.

Nobody is forcing an NBA team to take a kid out of high school though. Each team can make their own decision on if they're comfortable with the risk/reward profile of each high school to NBA prospect on a case by case basis. In every other career choice, non-sports, a company can hire whoever they want regardless of if they attended college or not if they think the individual has a skill set that can help their organization. You trust your people to make strong personnel decisions.

I've always felt it was unfair to the 18 year old to eliminate their chance to get drafted because the respective team owners around the league don't trust their GM's and scouting teams.

 

[RandygoCuse]

The rule the NBA has in place isn't really fair to kids who want to play - this is especially true when there are teams willing to draft them. I think the NBAs response is simply "Our league is stronger with the rule in place." It's hard to argue with them on this point. I fully admit that the rule comes down to protecting teams against themselves. But I think the NBA is smart to have this rule in place.

 

[djcon57]

FWIW silver said it could be a discussion had outside of negotiations...

Yep but Silver and NBA want it at 20 and NBAPA want it at 18...which is why the one and done will stay unfortunately until one moves to the other side

 

[Madbiker]

I'd like to get rid of the dumb rule all together. Let the NBA draft them right out of high school, hell middle school. Keep them all out of college. They are only going to college (and mostly to just 4 schools) to play ball for a year and go to the NBA or D League. Without this rule we would have college kids and real students playing who want to stay and earn a degree. If they are good enough after 4 years to go pro great, their choice. And car salesmen like Cal would leave college and go back to the NBA where they belong.

 

[realorange]

I'd like to get rid of the dumb rule all together. Let the NBA draft them right out of high school, hell middle school. Keep them all out of college. They are only going to college (and mostly to just 4 schools) to play ball for a year and go to the NBA or D League. Without this rule we would have college kids and real students playing who want to stay and earn a degree. If they are good enough after 4 years to go pro great, their choice. And car salesmen like Cal would leave college and go back to the NBA where they belong.

And when the word gets around that those hotshots out of high school didn't even get to the D League, then things just might calm down a bit.

 

[sufandu]

Nobody is forcing an NBA team to take a kid out of high school though. Each team can make their own decision on if they're comfortable with the risk/reward profile of each high school to NBA prospect on a case by case basis. In every other career choice, non-sports, a company can hire whoever they want regardless of if they attended college or not if they think the individual has a skill set that can help their organization. You trust your people to make strong personnel decisions.

I've always felt it was unfair to the 18 year old to eliminate their chance to get drafted because the respective team owners around the league don't trust their GM's and scouting teams.

Teams taking flyers on high school kids is bad for the league. NBA teams aren't entirely independent and would not have pushed for the one and done rule if owners didn't want it. They felt forced to take chances on kids that weren't ready for fear they'd miss out on the next superstar.

It's no different than McDonald's corporation mandating individual restaurants to follow certain rules. That's why the teams are called franchises.

 

[sufandu]

There are many guys who go after 1 year who shouldn't either. You're always going to have guys going to the league and not pan out. You're not minimizing anything by having a one and done rule - only 60 guys are getting drafted every year. Some years you'll have a lot of flops, other years you won't.

I never said there were guarantees.

 

[sufandu]

The rule the NBA has in place isn't really fair to kids who want to play - this is especially true when there are teams willing to draft them. I think the NBAs response is simply "Our league is stronger with the rule in place." It's hard to argue with them on this point. I fully admit that the rule comes down to protecting teams against themselves. But I think the NBA is smart to have this rule in place.

Why isn't it? Did you get to have your dream job simply because you wanted it or did you have to prove yourself in a way established by your future employer?

Nobody is saying they can't play. They're saying they have to wait to play at the highest level in the world. They can play in college, they can go overseas, they can play on the local playground. They can play if they want to. A little delayed gratification is a good thing. Most people have to experience it before getting what they want.

 

[Ward]

Teams taking flyers on high school kids is bad for the league. NBA teams aren't entirely independent and would not have pushed for the one and done rule if owners didn't want it. They felt forced to take chances on kids that weren't ready for fear they'd miss out on the next superstar.

It's no different than McDonald's corporation mandating individual restaurants to follow certain rules. That's why the teams are called franchises.

Yea, I agreed with you that the owners wanted it but it's because they don't trust themselves or their management to make intelligent draft selections so they more or less said let's just remove the temptation all together.

Nobody is forcing them to take flyers on high school kids. And it's their franchise's scouts and GM's job to remove as much uncertainty as possible surrounding each prospect's risk by doing their due diligence and identifying talent. It's not the kids fault someone is willing to pay them millions because they think they're good at basketball. If you don't think they belong or are too risky then it's pretty simple - don't draft them.

I agree with much of what you're saying in how it is bad for the league and the kids to have draft picks that have no business being in the NBA. I think where we disagree is I don't think you should punish the kids for the NBA owners and front offices not being able to trust themselves to make good decisions.

 

[Ward]

Why isn't it? Did you get to have your dream job simply because you wanted it or did you have to prove yourself in a way established by your future employer?

Nobody is saying they can't play. They're saying they have to wait to play at the highest level in the world. They can play in college, they can go overseas, they can play on the local playground. They can play if they want to. A little delayed gratification is a good thing. Most people have to experience it before getting what they want.

This is what I don't understand about your analogies and where I think they completely miss the mark. These guys weren't getting drafted just because they wanted to. Obviously the teams drafting the players felt that they established themselves one way or another enough to warrant a draft pick. Teams felt they were good enough to be drafted. Whether the teams were right or not is more a them problem than the kid's fault.

If each high school kid who got drafted "simply because they wanted it" there would be a lot more roster spots in the NBA.

 

[tbonezone]

but the school is on the hook for 3-4 years or until they graduate with the scholie counting towards the limit, or pick some number of years > than 1..

interesting idea . i like it. do you gamble on a short term 5* or go with program guy. i'd say bind the scholies for 2 yrs to start and then maybe phase it into 3 over 4 years.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

So why are we encouraging those guys to make mistakes like that?

Why is it a mistake? Says who? Guys who go don't want to be in college have to go because of the one and done rule.
Many of these guys would be more suited to a vocational school.
It's a mistake to force people to go to college, when their chosen field doesn't require an education.