NBA 2018-2019

[chugg21]

Same kind that Golden State attracted before Curry. Where they failed with AD is not surrounding him with good pieces. Hayward even at his best doesn't move their needle to a tier they want to be in, nor does he attract other players. They need picks and lots of them.

I don't comprehend this thought process. Hayward at his best combined with Tatum and Holiday give them 3 all-star caliber players along with likely the Griz pick which is gold. Getting the Celts or even the Clips 2019 picks moves the needle a hell'uva lot less than Hayward when you are in a small market with no history of winning or being able to attract players.

 

[chugg21]

I have no idea how taking Hayward back in a deal for AD helps New Orleans achieve anything that helps them progress as a franchise. He's expensive and you have no idea what caliber of player you'll be getting.

He's just a lotto ticket with a chance of return greater than that of Smart or Rozier or the Clips/Celts 2019 1sts.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Hoping Hayward can get it back regardless of where he wins up, his road will be much like Paul George's going to take some time, maybe even another year after this but he was so freaking good at Utah. He actually reminded me a lot of Paul George. He was a really good defender too, maybe not ALL NBA good like Paul but really really good.

I agree though Pelicans can't afford that type of risk with this deal, not with that contract. Everybody gets after the Pels for not resigning Boogie, they tried to to a certain extent but he wanted a long term deal and big $$. Now if Boogie doesn't come back 100% people would have crucified them, I don't blame them. Nobody else gave him the $$. Pelicans have taken enough risk trying to catch lightning in a bottle with AD and failed, they need to start going about things a bit more systematically.

 

[Horn88]

He's just a lotto ticket with a chance of return greater than that of Smart or Rozier or the Clips/Celts 2019 1sts.

The return is relative though when you start comparing price tags. Hayward had a pretty serious injury and based on what he's shown this year I don't know if it's smart for a team to take that contract on without really knowing what you're paying for. Boston would probably be doing backflips if New Orleans took him back in the deal.

 

[Alsacs]

The return is relative though when you start comparing price tags. Hayward had a pretty serious injury and based on what he's shown this year I don't know if it's smart for a team to take that contract on without really knowing what you're paying for. Boston would probably be doing backflips if New Orleans took him back in the deal.

Hayward can’t get the PT he needs because of Brown, Tatum, Horford, Morris eating minutes.
If Hayward leaves he will get more playing time and likely a better chance to become what he was quicker.

 

[chugg21]

The return is relative though when you start comparing price tags. Hayward had a pretty serious injury and based on what he's shown this year I don't know if it's smart for a team to take that contract on without really knowing what you're paying for. Boston would probably be doing backflips if New Orleans took him back in the deal.

In certain markets, New Orleans being one, you need to take more risk because you only have 2 pathways to getting a difference maker, the draft and via trade. They do not have the opportunity via free agency that bigger markets have. Therefore if you have to roll the dice and believe that Hayward has a 60% chance of being what he was before and another 20% chance that he can get close to that, then it is probably worthwhile to gamble. Get the Celts to take back Hill while taking on Hayward and it becomes a no brainer.

 

[Horn88]

Hayward can’t get the PT he needs because of Brown, Tatum, Horford, Morris eating minutes.
If Hayward leaves he will get more playing time and likely a better chance to become what he was quicker.

Maybe that's the case, maybe it isn't but if I'm a GM I think it would be foolish of me to pay him $31-34M/yr over the next 3 years while I find out if I don't have to.

 

[Horn88]

In certain markets, New Orleans being one, you need to take more risk because you only have 2 pathways to getting a difference maker, the draft and via trade. They do not have the opportunity via free agency that bigger markets have. Therefore if you have to roll the dice and believe that Hayward has a 60% chance of being what he was before and another 20% chance that he can get close to that, then it is probably worthwhile to gamble. Get the Celts to take back Hill while taking on Hayward and it becomes a no brainer.

Market size being an issue is an exageration of a problem and New Orleans isn't Cleveland as far as appeal of the city goes. Bomani Jones has been saying this all week and he's right that market size doesn't matter as much as people think it does. Competence is the biggest factor which is why San Antonio and OKC are able to get quality free agents to sign and stay there and the Knicks/Bulls/Suns/Hawks/Wizards and others can't.

Pelicans couldn't get people to go there because they have been a poorly run franchise. I think they're much better off getting draft picks and young players and rebuilding from square one and being smart with cap space. They aren't good as is with AD so why would they think that taking back a max contract for a guy that isn't close to AD helps them moving forward? Go for youth and go for cheaper contracts and try to rebuild. Quality free agents will sign there if they trust the front office will build a winner and that the organization will be run at a high level.

 

[chugg21]

Market size being an issue is an exageration of a problem and New Orleans isn't Cleveland as far as appeal of the city goes. Bomani Jones has been saying this all week and he's right that market size doesn't matter as much as people think it does. Competence is the biggest factor which is why San Antonio and OKC are able to get quality free agents to sign and stay there and the Knicks/Bulls/Suns/Hawks/Wizards and others can't.

Pelicans couldn't get people to go there because they have been a poorly run franchise. I think they're much better off getting draft picks and young players and rebuilding from square one and being smart with cap space. They aren't good as is with AD so why would they think that taking back a max contract for a guy that isn't close to AD helps them moving forward? Go for youth and go for cheaper contracts and try to rebuild. Quality free agents will sign there if they trust the front office will build a winner and that the organization will be run at a high level.

None of that is occuring prior to Haywards contract expiring anyway. So can go that way or have Tatum and Holiday winning 30 games a year with a bunch of kids and hope to strike it rich in the lotto being terrible instead which is probably a better long term outcome but then Tatum is gonna just want oit after a few years too.

 

[Horn88]

None of that is occuring prior to Haywards contract expiring anyway. So can go that way or have Tatum and Holiday winning 30 games a year with a bunch of kids and hope to strike it rich in the lotto being terrible instead which is probably a better long term outcome but then Tatum is gonna just want oit after a few years too.

What way is Hayward taking them though? We don't really know what type of player he'll be anytime soon and how many extra wins he gets you so why would you willingly take on a contract of that size when there are cheaper options who will have similar impact?

Go young, get draft picks, use cap space to bring in depth and then sell Tatum a vision and point to the smart moves you made when his contract is up in 3 years. A front office that can demonstrate competence goes a long way when franchise players are free agents.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Team's gotta pay somebody money.

Sure, the Hayward contract carries risk because he's not what he was before the injury, but it's a gamble that has some potential to pay off.

The contract is only for 2 more years, with what looks like an opt-out after next season.

One interesting thing - according to Spotrac he has a 15% trade kicker. Gordon Hayward

 

[chugg21]

What way is Hayward taking them though? We don't really know what type of player he'll be anytime soon and how many extra wins he gets you so why would you willingly take on a contract of that size when there are cheaper options who will have similar impact?

Go young, get draft picks, use cap space to bring in depth and then sell Tatum a vision and point to the smart moves you made when his contract is up in 3 years. A front office that can demonstrate competence goes a long way when franchise players are free agents.

I think if they get lucky and Hayward is back to full strength next year that him with Jrue and Tatum is a nice core. Add in their own lotto pick this year and whatever picks they end up with and you may have a decent future. The value of non-lotto picks, especially those in the 20s are so inflated to me that I'd rather have a shot at Hayward.

 

[chugg21]

Market size being an issue is an exageration of a problem and New Orleans isn't Cleveland as far as appeal of the city goes. Bomani Jones has been saying this all week and he's right that market size doesn't matter as much as people think it does. Competence is the biggest factor which is why San Antonio and OKC are able to get quality free agents to sign and stay there and the Knicks/Bulls/Suns/Hawks/Wizards and others can't.

Pelicans couldn't get people to go there because they have been a poorly run franchise. I think they're much better off getting draft picks and young players and rebuilding from square one and being smart with cap space. They aren't good as is with AD so why would they think that taking back a max contract for a guy that isn't close to AD helps them moving forward? Go for youth and go for cheaper contracts and try to rebuild. Quality free agents will sign there if they trust the front office will build a winner and that the organization will be run at a high level.

Also what quality free agents have the Spurs or Thunder ever signed from another team. I can't think of anyone that moved the needle.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Also what quality free agents have the Spurs or Thunder ever signed from another team. I can't think of anyone that moved the needle.

Aldridge?

 

[chugg21]

Aldridge?

Good call. 20 years of great teams and perfect culture and they got 1 big time FA.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Good call. 20 years of great teams and perfect culture and they got 1 big time FA.

Well in fairness, they shined at acquiring players through the draft and player development. Lot of those teams didn't need big time free agents.

 

[Horn88]

Also what quality free agents have the Spurs or Thunder ever signed from another team. I can't think of anyone that moved the needle.

I didn’t say anything about SA or OKC “from another team”. You did. Duncan, Westbrook, George, Adams, Parker, Ginobli, etc. all stayed in the “small market” instead of going to the “big market” which you seem to think Tatum inevitably will do unless Hayward is there. Stars will stay in smaller markets if the organization is a well run organization. Pelicans haven’t been well run so Davis is leaving. I mentioned big markets that haven’t been successful in getting outside free agents to show the theory isn’t that true and there’s more to it than just market size.

If you can show Tatum that you can draft well and build depth via free agency (not have to sign franchise stars) then guys have proven that they’ll stay regardless of if Hayward is there or not which you seem to think is the key to New Orleans future.

 

[chugg21]

I didn’t say anything about SA or OKC “from another team”. You did. Duncan, Westbrook, George, Adams, Parker, Ginobli, etc. all stayed in the “small market” instead of going to the “big market” which you seem to think Tatum inevitably will do unless Hayward is there. Stars will stay in smaller markets if the organization is a well run organization. Pelicans haven’t been well run so Davis is leaving. I mentioned big markets that haven’t been successful in getting outside free agents to show the theory isn’t that true and there’s more to it than just market size.

If you can show Tatum that you can draft well and build depth via free agency (not have to sign franchise stars) then guys have proven that they’ll stay regardless of if Hayward is there or not which you seem to think is the key to New Orleans future.

He's not the key to anything besides being competitive. I believe they're better off taking a chance on him then grabbing an extra non-lotto pick. Chances of him returning to form have to be significantly higher than the avg player selected in the 20s.

 

[MikeSU02]

I know AD is great, but a guy that can’t get his team to 50 wins any year is a little worrisome to mortgage the farm on.

I’d like the Knicks to focus on Durant and continue tanking for Zion (even if they ended up with RJ, I wouldn’t be totally disappointed). Make a run at Kyrie as well.

Can’t believe AD will be on the move plus KD, Kyrie, Kawhi and Klay are all going to be on the market.

 

[Knicks411]

I know AD is great, but a guy that can’t get his team to 50 wins any year is a little worrisome to mortgage the farm on.

I’d like the Knicks to focus on Durant and continue tanking for Zion (even if they ended up with RJ, I wouldn’t be totally disappointed). Make a run at Kyrie as well.

Can’t believe AD will be on the move plus KD, Kyrie, Kawhi and Klay are all going to be on the market.

I struggle a little bit with this; because there is a lot of truth to that. Based on the numbers, eye test, etc, Davis is a complete monster, a trade whatever you have to to get on your team kind of guy. But then it's like, I get the supporting cast has generally been awful, but they should be a little better than they have been, right? At the end of the day I still think the dude is an absolute great player, but it does give me a little pause.

As for the draft, I am all in on Zion, and kinda lukewarm on Barrett. Morant could be something. But I think Zion is going to be a legit great player. Will be disappointed when we don't get him.

It is crazy to think how much is gonna change this summer; really, all it takes is Durant leaving GS to made the title race totally wide open for the first time in like 5 years.


Unrelated; but I went to the Knicks-Mavs game last night. Really glad Dirk hit some shots, good way for him to go out in MSG if it ends up that way.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I struggle a little bit with this; because there is a lot of truth to that. Based on the numbers, eye test, etc, Davis is a complete monster, a trade whatever you have to to get on your team kind of guy. But then it's like, I get the supporting cast has generally been awful, but they should be a little better than they have been, right? At the end of the day I still think the dude is an absolute great player, but it does give me a little pause.

As for the draft, I am all in on Zion, and kinda lukewarm on Barrett. Morant could be something. But I think Zion is going to be a legit great player. Will be disappointed when we don't get him.

It is crazy to think how much is gonna change this summer; really, all it takes is Durant leaving GS to made the title race totally wide open for the first time in like 5 years.


Unrelated; but I went to the Knicks-Mavs game last night. Really glad Dirk hit some shots, good way for him to go out in MSG if it ends up that way.

It's pretty much the same beef I had with Kevin Love. People kept saying how great he was. But his teams sucked.

I do think Anthony Davis is better. But you'd want to see more winning.

 

[OrangeDW]

Eh, I think the Pelicans have been in late 80s - early 90s Houston Rockets mode, where they had the brilliant Hakeem and never could put much around him. Or Minnesota with KG mode. Both guys were amazing all around players, and when they finally got some help, their teams won big time.

 

[Melancer46]

I think any other star in the NBA would have struggled to win with the teams the Pelicans were putting out there on an annual basis, especially considering they were in the West. I mean, look at the starting guards/wings he's had in his tenure there:

2013: Grievis Vasquez, Eric Gordon, Al-Farouq Aminu (before Aminu had learned how to shoot)
2014: Jrue Holiday, Gordon, Aminu
2015: Tyreke Evans (before Evans learned how to shoot), Gordon, Quincy Pondexter
2016: Evans, Gordon, Alonzo Gee
2017: Holiday, Buddy Hield, Solomon Hill
2018: Rondo, Holiday, E'twaun Moore
2019: Holiday, Moore, Wes Johnson

There's at least like 3 starters in there that would probably be getting DNPs for most teams and with the exception of Holiday, I don't think any of those guys would be considered good starters. You could make a case for Eric Gordon based on raw numbers, but when he was with New Orleans, he was an inefficient chucker that didn't play any defense.

The Pelicans royally screwed up at every single turn after they drafted Davis.

On a side note, take it with a very very major grain of salt because he isn't the most reliable source, but IncarceratedBob is saying that all of the players in the league (including Enes Kanter who apparently hinted at it in an interview recently) knows already that Kevin Durant is planning on signing with the Knicks.

 

[MikeSU02]

I think any other star in the NBA would have struggled to win with the teams the Pelicans were putting out there on an annual basis, especially considering they were in the West. I mean, look at the starting guards/wings he's had in his tenure there:

2013: Grievis Vasquez, Eric Gordon, Al-Farouq Aminu (before Aminu had learned how to shoot)
2014: Jrue Holiday, Gordon, Aminu
2015: Tyreke Evans (before Evans learned how to shoot), Gordon, Quincy Pondexter
2016: Evans, Gordon, Alonzo Gee
2017: Holiday, Buddy Hield, Solomon Hill
2018: Rondo, Holiday, E'twaun Moore
2019: Holiday, Moore, Wes Johnson

There's at least like 3 starters in there that would probably be getting DNPs for most teams and with the exception of Holiday, I don't think any of those guys would be considered good starters. You could make a case for Eric Gordon based on raw numbers, but when he was with New Orleans, he was an inefficient chucker that didn't play any defense.

The Pelicans royally screwed up at every single turn after they drafted Davis.

On a side note, take it with a very very major grain of salt because he isn't the most reliable source, but IncarceratedBob is saying that all of the players in the league (including Enes Kanter who apparently hinted at it in an interview recently) knows already that Kevin Durant is planning on signing with the Knicks.

Have the Portland Trailblazers post-LMA been that different in talent versus the NOP?

 

[MikeSU02]

Eh, I think the Pelicans have been in late 80s - early 90s Houston Rockets mode, where they had the brilliant Hakeem and never could put much around him. Or Minnesota with KG mode. Both guys were amazing all around players, and when they finally got some help, their teams won big time.

Houston got wrecked by drugs. They were an up and coming team when they hit the 1986 Finals.

KG might be a better comparison, but he still needed to go find Pierce, Rondo and Ray to win.

Not saying AD is bad. Far from it. Dude is a HoFer. Just saying, the guy isn't playing with the Atlanta Hawks roster.