NBA Thread 2019-20 Season

STEVEHOLT

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Wouldn’t shock me if Jason Kidd didn’t up on their list.
I am not a fan of Kidd’s coaching abilities but the Clippers-Lakers feud and maybe he can charm Balmer.

This job needs a reboot though. The arrogance of Harrell, Morris and Beverly really hurt this team.
Jason Kidd fouls intentionally up 4
 

CuseFaninVT

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I don’t see how it’s not a goaltend..his hand is over the cylinder and makes contact with a ball on its way down during a shot attempt .. how has nobody brought this up ? And I’m rooting for the Heat
I tried to make that argument with friends last night, but even I wasn't buying it. No one ever in the history of time would expect the refs to make that call.
 

Alsacs

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Siakam on second team is too high.
Doncic over Kawhi was a bad choice as well.
I go Middleton over Westbrook as well.
 

MikeSU02

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Siakam on second team is too high.
Doncic over Kawhi was a bad choice as well.
I go Middleton over Westbrook as well.
Siakim I guess carried that incredible start, but I think moving forward you'll see Tatum higher than him on these teams (not knocking Siakim, just think Tatum's better).

I'm not upset about Doncic over Kawhi. If they removed positions, I would actually swap AD and Kawhi and keep Luka on 1st team.

The Westbrook pick just seems like such a legacy pick... I get he did well... but it just doesn't look good after the playoffs (I know it's regular season... but is WB really a top 15 guy right now?).

Will be interesting to see a healthy Steph, KD, Kyrie and Klay next year and how these teams project.
 

jncuse

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Remember these votes are pre bubble I believe, and the raptors had the second best record in the league so that gets noticed and rewarded in these votes.

Stats wise Siakam had a tremendous start for the first 25 games or so and got lots of positive attention. Statswise at the time he surpassed Tatum

But as January came around the quality of his game started to really fall and his numbers a bit as well. But the raptors kept winning. Part of it was his very good defence .. but his offence was concerning. When COVID came no doubt he was worse than Tatum.

but the voters at season end see the person with the best Overall counting stats on the second best team In the league record wise and who is a good defender, and they vote for him.


it was the wrong choice but you can see why it happened. Remember these are not future values.

Siakam was about 20th team all starin the playoffs.
 
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jncuse

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Siakam on second team is too high.
Doncic over Kawhi was a bad choice as well.
I go Middleton over Westbrook as well.
Another large factor is that Lowry is way underrated and Kemba is a Bit overrated by media.

So the media does not give enough credit to Lowry for the Raptors going 53-19, so that helps Siakam. But they give a lot of credit to Kemba which hurts Tatum on a team that also won less than 5 games.

So you bring in the counting stats and a bad decision is made because you don’t assess other teammates properly. Anybody who watched the playoffs knows Siakam is not better than Tatum, but clearly worse. But also that Lowry is as valuable as Kemba , and probably more, which is not the narrative in the media and in the minds of voters when all star voting is done.
 
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Melancer46

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I would have voted Middleton in over Siakam and Tatum this year. Sucks that he was eligible for guard/forward just like Simmons, received more votes than Simmons, and still didn't make the team over Simmons lol.
 

jncuse

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I tried to make that argument with friends last night, but even I wasn't buying it. No one ever in the history of time would expect the refs to make that call.
Can the ball be on the downward descent if it has not actually fully out of Tatum's hands? I think the ball has to be out of his hands first -- but that is me speculating on what would make sense.
 

Knicks411

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I would have voted Middleton in over Siakam and Tatum this year. Sucks that he was eligible for guard/forward just like Simmons, received more votes than Simmons, and still didn't make the team over Simmons lol.
Yeah I was just logging into to say this. It's so weird. he had more points than Westbrook as well!

I guess Simmons had more votes purely as a guard? They should just do total points and then stick him wherever they have to to make it work. Especially now because this stuff matters in terms of being eligible for supermax or whatever. (I know not specifically for Middleton, just saying in general)
 

jncuse

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Last line - I'm not saying you = you jncuse, I mean Raps fans. Not being personal. Apologies if it came off like that.

Second, yes, Westbrook isn't a good choice, but here's the deal from POV:
> You need a top star to win and at least another star to win.
> Bron and KD were moving and Kawhi didn't want to be left out once those two made the next gen "super teams" even though they aren't on the level of the Dubs. Steph has been working on Giannis for multiple years. Kawhi is just doing his move, marrying it with the fact he wants to be in SoCal.
> So he isn't a good GM, that's fine. That's why you don't listen to him.
> Here is where we are now: Kawhi and PG13 are in the area they wanted to get to (SoCal), Ballmer is the wealthiest owner, and they are going to be able to re-load, they'll spend what they need to. We heard that all these teams are stuck and then becomes unstuck: Heatles, Dubs, etc, but they still pull it off. It's the stars' league.
> Kawhi never wanted to be in Toronto. You were in an arranged marriage and won a historic title. If it burns you the way he left, that's fine. But it should not have been a surprise.
> If Ballmer can re-sign Kawhi (and that's all he needs to do), they are still competing and they are a destination with a top player, new arena and are in LA and, again, the wealthiest owner.

I'm not sure what the future of Toronto looks like. The best they can hope for is that Giannis goes west and the east stays a level below the west. They'll have opportunities to sneak into the Finals.
At the end of the day the argument is around whether Kawhi was successful in his forced moves last year, which was my comment that triggered this discussion. He was not. I can certainly concede that I am bitter with the way he left, but at the same time I am very thankful for how professional he was while in Toronto and that he led them to a title.

Kawhi had the right to choose where he wanted to play (wanting to go home is reasonable and can't be criticized), and he has the right to demand for players (that can be criticized, which I am doing)

But in summary:

#1) I can respect his choice to play for the Clippers, but if I was a Clip fan I would be upset at what he made us to do before he came. If he had stayed, I should have been upset as a Raptor fan for forcing that trade (but would not have been due to blind loyalty). But my main criticism is the timing of his demands which would hurt whomever he signed with.


He screwed over whomever he would sign with (whether the Clips or Raps) with his games around the Paul George Trade. Sam Presti would have had neither team over the barrel if he had signed with someone first then allowed his team to negotiate or look at other options. Kawhi has lack of trust -- sometimes that helps you, sometimes it doesn't. And it hurt him this year in the end. He should have signed with somebody and be patient. Both the Clippers and Raptors would have made subsequent win now moves -- both teams are well managed and they would have done better than giving up 5 (or 7 picks) + assets for George.

#2)
1600294251905.png


I think it's very fair to say this assessment by Kawhi was wrong. You could argue the surrounding team of the Raptors was as good as the Clippers this year -- fairly easy argument to make when that team goes 53-19. Plus they would have still had five future first rounders to play around with. IF, it was primarily about winning, he made a bad call. If he wanted to go home as his primary factor, he made the right call.


#3) In terms of Superteams the 3 biggest in recent memory are the Heat and the Warriors... and possibly the recent Lakers. These teams all had to have assets or cap space to do what they did. The Clippers don't have the capabilities to do what those teams did. I disagree with your assessment that the Clippers will just be able to make moves to get better. All of those teams had planned circumstances to become superteams that the Clippers do not.

a) The Heat basically had no contracts as they entered the historic free agent class of 2010. It was a planned attempt at a Superteam -- they got rid of everything so they could fit in three max FA's (or about 98% of Max)

b) The Warriors were extremely lucky that the Salary Cap went up by about 50% in the summer of 2016 after the large new TV deal kicked in. SInce they had Steph Curry, Klay, and Green on such reasonable deals (that Steph Curry 4yr/48 million deal helped them so much), they had the ability to sign Kevin Durant. But that would have never happened if there had not been that one time large increase in the Cap.

c) The Lakers had to give up a pretty big haul to get Anthony Davis. The Clippers have a fraction of that available to deal.

The circumstances are just not there for the Clips to re-load or get better. They still have a very reasonable shot next year, but it will be running back most of that same team.
 

Day2

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That's my thinking as well. But when you watch Stevens v Spo or if you go back to Stevens v Nurse, the coaching is just on a different level.

Doc is a very good coach. But when it comes to these types of matchups with this pressure, you have to do more than what he did.

In my head, I kind of have a MDA (even though it's just a retread) with the LAC and having a sort of KC Chiefs/Andy Reid late-career validation maybe?
I liked your post up until the mention of MDA. No. Just no.

I like what Donovan did with the Thunder this year. I think he can instill the attitude adjustment this team needs. Certainly trust him with X’s and O’s. He coached George before and Noah can be an unofficial player/coach. As Alsacs said above, it has to be the right guy. That’s going to be a very short list.

They could bring everyone else back and win the title next year. But not with Doc and not with MDA.
 

Day2

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Kawhi wins either way - if they stink he opts out and signs with someone he can put over the top. Clippers are in trouble in 2022.
Not really. They’ll still have the richest owner in the league and the best front office in the league. They flipped Lob City into an even better contender in two years. If Leonard and/or George leave (that’s a big “if”), they’ll have cap room to bring in other stars with a good portion of the supporting cast still intact.
 

Day2

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Honestly I doubt Kawhi leaves again so soon. He went to LA because he wanted to play in LA and they were able to bring in a friend to play with him. I don't think he's just going to bounce around a million teams just because he wanted out of San Antonio once and then got forced to Toronto.
This guy gets it.
 

Day2

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At the end of the day the argument is around whether Kawhi was successful in his forced moves last year, which was my comment that triggered this discussion. He was not. I can certainly concede that I am bitter with the way he left, but at the same time I am very thankful for how professional he was while in Toronto and that he led them to a title.

Kawhi had the right to choose where he wanted to play (wanting to go home is reasonable and can't be criticized), and he has the right to demand for players (that can be criticized, which I am doing)

But in summary:

#1) I can respect his choice to play for the Clippers, but if I was a Clip fan I would be upset at what he made us to do before he came. If he had stayed, I should have been upset as a Raptor fan for forcing that trade (but would not have been due to blind loyalty). But my main criticism is the timing of his demands which would hurt whomever he signed with.


He screwed over whomever he would sign with (whether the Clips or Raps) with his games around the Paul George Trade. Sam Presti would have had neither team over the barrel if he had signed with someone first then allowed his team to negotiate or look at other options. Kawhi has lack of trust -- sometimes that helps you, sometimes it doesn't. And it hurt him this year in the end. He should have signed with somebody and be patient. Both the Clippers and Raptors would have made subsequent win now moves -- both teams are well managed and they would have done better than giving up 5 (or 7 picks) + assets for George.

#2) View attachment 188073

I think it's very fair to say this assessment by Kawhi was wrong. You could argue the surrounding team of the Raptors was as good as the Clippers this year -- fairly easy argument to make when that team goes 53-19. Plus they would have still had five future first rounders to play around with. IF, it was primarily about winning, he made a bad call. If he wanted to go home as his primary factor, he made the right call.


#3) In terms of Superteams the 3 biggest in recent memory are the Heat and the Warriors... and possibly the recent Lakers. These teams all had to have assets or cap space to do what they did. The Clippers don't have the capabilities to do what those teams did. I disagree with your assessment that the Clippers will just be able to make moves to get better. All of those teams had planned circumstances to become superteams that the Clippers do not.

a) The Heat basically had no contracts as they entered the historic free agent class of 2010. It was a planned attempt at a Superteam -- they got rid of everything so they could fit in three max FA's (or about 98% of Max)

b) The Warriors were extremely lucky that the Salary Cap went up by about 50% in the summer of 2016 after the large new TV deal kicked in. SInce they had Steph Curry, Klay, and Green on such reasonable deals (that Steph Curry 4yr/48 million deal helped them so much), they had the ability to sign Kevin Durant. But that would have never happened if there had not been that one time large increase in the Cap.

c) The Lakers had to give up a pretty big haul to get Anthony Davis. The Clippers have a fraction of that available to deal.

The circumstances are just not there for the Clips to re-load or get better. They still have a very reasonable shot next year, but it will be running back most of that same team.
Well, that same team barely played together this season because of all the injuries and still only finished 3.5 games behind the Lakers. That same team was still good enough to be up 3-1. That same team was still good enough to build up double-digit leads the last three games.

As a Clippers fan, I’m not upset with Leonard at all, aside from his performance last night. The Clips don’t need SGA or Gallinari anymore and they have little use for the picks if Leonard and George stay. This season is just one season. And frankly, had the Clips won it all, it would not have been considered legitimate. They still would have needed to win another title.

If and when they do win that title (and it will happen under Ballmer’s watch, with or without this current group), this season will be viewed as nothing more than a fart in the wind. (Or, in this case, a fart in the bubble.)
 

jncuse

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Yeah I was just logging into to say this. It's so weird. he had more points than Westbrook as well!

I guess Simmons had more votes purely as a guard? They should just do total points and then stick him wherever they have to to make it work. Especially now because this stuff matters in terms of being eligible for supermax or whatever. (I know not specifically for Middleton, just saying in general)
Agreed.
 

OrangeDW

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The amount of elite talent in the NBA right now just overwhelms the brain. I was looking at the All-NBA teams released today and the fact that Curry, Klay, Kyrie, Embiid, KAT, Durant aren't even included in this mix is just crazy.
Plus guys who went crazy in the bubble and are on the verge of planting themselves on those teams...Mitchell, Murray, and Booker.
 

Capt. Tuttle

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actually they were legit the year Chris Paul got hurt with them up 3-2 vs GSW...
If Iggy isn't hurt, the Warriors win in 5, with or without Chris Paul.
The CP injury is a red herring, because it's used out of the context of Iggy being out.
 

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