NBA Thread 2019-20 Season

OrangeDW

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My mom’s Celtics season tickets got offered a seat in the NBA virtual fan wall if she wants it.

She said that the game for the people in the virtual fans will watch the game on their computer in a chat room and you get a feed of the game that is 5 seconds ahead of the TV broadcast.

I don’t think she will watch 4 quarters on her computer but it’s interesting that those fans get a feed ahead of the TV.
I wonder if the swearing is edited out of their feed too? Assume the delay gives them time to edit the TV broadcast.
 

jncuse

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Talking about the TV delay. There is at least a 5 second delay... possibly closer to 10 second delay.
If you follow live betting odds site like bet365, you see the score update itself quite a bit earlier than watching it on TV. (Possibly a Canadian feed thing, but I don't believe so)
 

jncuse

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Kawhi's GM Skills certainly are taking a hit right now.

He forced the Clippers to take Paul George to "win". For this series alone was Paul George really that more valuable then SGA / Gallinari? No. Then you add in the future value of SGA + five first rounders + 2 swaps that could well be lottery pick swaps. The Clippers would have been much better staying with their current team to start the year, and then make moves with the first rounders to finish their roster as the deadline came.

Kawhi the GM would have butchered the Raptors even more.
If people remember he had told Masai to trade for George and Westbrook. I know a key feature of the Raptors / Thunder trade would have been Siakam, but since the Raptors were over the cap they would have needed to add about $60M in salaries going the other way -- it was speculated that Lowry would have been one of the other pieces going the other way to match salaries.

Thankfully Masai did not fully trust that Kawhi would have stayed even with the trade being completed and did not want to move Siakam (even though he floundered this year).
 

jncuse

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Hot Take: If Kawhi stayed with the Raptors we would be discussing them being a likely repeat champion and an all time great team. Instead he goes to team who played scared down the stretch. Something at least Lowry, Powell and FVV didn't do last year or this year
The Raptors needed Kawhi to win. Kawhi needed the Raptors to win.

The Raptors supporting core was actually better this year than last year.

- OG Anunoby was injured much of last year and for all the playoffs - he more than offset the loss of Danny Green. He is one of the most underrated defenders in the league. Perhaps the best defender on the Raptors.
- Powell slumped last year and much of the playoffs - he was re-energized this year and was much better.
- FVV stepped up his game this year and became a much better player and was no longer scared after last year;s finals.
- Siakam -- it's hard to say. He appeared to have improved a lot for the first two months of the year, then regressed and crashed under the pressure as the first option (which he unfortunately may not be suited for). As 2A/2B he was quite good last year, so U suspect he would have stayed at least as good as last year if not a bit better.
- Veterans Ibaka and Lowry did not regress at all. The only veteran that regressed a bit was Gasol.
- Not that the Raptors would have needed 9-11 men on the roster (Nurse does not like playing more than 7 or 8 deep if he can), but Davis, Boucher, Thomas were much better than Lin, Meeks and whatever other garbage they trotted out last year in the playoffs.
 

jncuse

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Who are the worst GM's in the last 20 years?

On my list I have:
Billy King
Isiah Thomas
David Kahn
Rob Babcock
Kawhi Leonard / Uncle Dennis
 

Alsacs

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Doc Rivers left the Celtics because he wanted to avoid rebuild and the Celtics have made the Conference Finals 3 times since he left and he hasn’t made it once.
 
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MikeSU02

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Kawhi's GM Skills certainly are taking a hit right now.

He forced the Clippers to take Paul George to "win". For this series alone was Paul George really that more valuable then SGA / Gallinari? No. Then you add in the future value of SGA + five first rounders + 2 swaps that could well be lottery pick swaps. The Clippers would have been much better staying with their current team to start the year, and then make moves with the first rounders to finish their roster as the deadline came.

Kawhi the GM would have butchered the Raptors even more. If people remember he had told Masai to trade for George and Westbrook. I know a key feature of the Raptors / Thunder trade would have been Siakam, but since the Raptors were over the cap they would have needed to add about $60M in salaries going the other way -- it was speculated that Lowry would have been one of the other pieces going the other way to match salaries.

Thankfully Masai did not fully trust that Kawhi would have stayed even with the trade being completed and did not want to move Siakam (even though he floundered this year).
Kawhi wasn't coming to the Clippers without a second star and PG13 was the one available. Every single GM in the NBA would make that same trade in that position, every one of them. Kawhi is one of the three best players alive right now and you take him anyway you can and figure it out later.

Clippers are not vying for a title with SGA/Gallinari and picks.

Outside of 2004 Pistons, who had four all stars during a down time for the depth of NBA talent, it has been proven you need a top star to win a title.

The clippers need to let a few guys walk, evaluate Doc (and who would be available if they booted him) and then just go back with Kawhi and PG.

The Raps fans should just be happy Kawhi came into their lives. You got your title. You beat the Dubs. Enjoy it. You aren't winning a title with Pascal and Lowry.
 

Alsacs

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I just read Doc Rivers has blown 3-1 series leads in the George W. Bush, Barack Obama and Trump administrations.

I think he has to be fired but I don’t know if the Clippers can get a better HC.
 

MikeSU02

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I just read Doc Rivers has blown 3-1 series leads in the George W. Bush, Barack Obama and Trump administrations.

I think he has to be fired but I don’t know if the Clippers can get a better HC.
That's my thinking as well. But when you watch Stevens v Spo or if you go back to Stevens v Nurse, the coaching is just on a different level.

Doc is a very good coach. But when it comes to these types of matchups with this pressure, you have to do more than what he did.

In my head, I kind of have a MDA (even though it's just a retread) with the LAC and having a sort of KC Chiefs/Andy Reid late-career validation maybe?
 

Cusefan0307

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I just read Doc Rivers has blown 3-1 series leads in the George W. Bush, Barack Obama and Trump administrations.

I think he has to be fired but I don’t know if the Clippers can get a better HC.
Not as big of a choke, but Boston did blow a 3-2 finals lead to the Lakers as well in 2010.
 

Alsacs

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That's my thinking as well. But when you watch Stevens v Spo or if you go back to Stevens v Nurse, the coaching is just on a different level.

Doc is a very good coach. But when it comes to these types of matchups with this pressure, you have to do more than what he did.

In my head, I kind of have a MDA (even though it's just a retread) with the LAC and having a sort of KC Chiefs/Andy Reid late-career validation maybe?
Wouldn’t shock me if Jason Kidd didn’t up on their list.
I am not a fan of Kidd’s coaching abilities but the Clippers-Lakers feud and maybe he can charm Balmer.

This job needs a reboot though. The arrogance of Harrell, Morris and Beverly really hurt this team.
 

Alsacs

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Not as big of a choke, but Boston did blow a 3-2 finals lead to the Lakers as well in 2010.
Boston gagged game 7.

Celtics had a lead pretty much the entire game and Lakers could score but the Celtics couldn’t get a rebound to save their lives. It was a gag.
 

Cusefan0307

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Boston gagged game 7.

Celtics had a lead pretty much the entire game and Lakers could score but the Celtics couldn’t get a rebound to save their lives. It was a gag.
That game was just like the last 3 games of this series. I don’t really think Doc is a big adjustment coach. He sticks with the plan. Whereas the opposing team usually changes things when they’re behind.
 

jncuse

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Kawhi wasn't coming to the Clippers without a second star and PG13 was the one available. Every single GM in the NBA would make that same trade in that position, every one of them. Kawhi is one of the three best players alive right now and you take him anyway you can and figure it out later.

Clippers are not vying for a title with SGA/Gallinari and picks.
#1) You are changing the narrative around. Yes I agree that you make the move you are now forced into if you are the Clippers. I am not blaming the Clippers GM for making the moves to get him. I am blaming Kawhi for making things much harder for the GM by poor demands.

Kawhi as pseudo "GM" is forcing the Clippers to make a trade with awful leverage (i.e it has to be done quickly over a few days) and for a player with skeptical playoff history I stated above you can trade SGA and the picks later, but let things breathe and re-establish a leverage position. If Kawhi had just signed on, and let the GM team work out something as time passed things could have worked out much better for him and the team. But when you let superstars manage your GM decisions it often does not work out for you -- but you have no choice if that is the way the superstar wants to be. You could have acquired someone this year (even Paul George) and given away much less assets in the process, and if you needed to re-tool you still have draft picks in 2020/2021 offseason... but now they have no assets this summer because they lost them all because they lacked leverage when they made the George deal.

#2) You also overlooked my point that Kawhi wanted to trash the Raptors of what was speculated to be Siakam, Lowry + Assets + Picks for George and Westbrook. That was his demand - get George and Westbrook He wanted to dismantle a team that just won the NBA title, and subsequently ran it back and went 53-19 without him and nearly made the ECF. Was that good player assessment by Kawhi? He could have stayed with the Raptors, stuck with what they have, and asked Ujiri to look into trading the younger assets and picks over the next year or two, and the results would have been much more productive for him then asking them to trade for George/Westbrook immediately. If winning was his most important thing, then why does he think he can make better personnel decisions than Masai Ujiri?


#3) Not every GM was willing to blow up their team to try to keep Kawhi. Masai did not destroy the future of the team to get a chump like Westbrook, and they are still positioned to make a run at Giannis in 2021, and still have some picks for the next 7 years unlike the Clippers.

Kawhi should have just signed on to where he thought was best and not asked teams to rush into trades and lose valuable assets in the process. Let GM's manage their team - that is what they are paid to do and are better than Uncle Dennis at it.

Outside of 2004 Pistons, who had four all stars during a down time for the depth of NBA talent, it has been proven you need a top star to win a title.
Agreed, but not sure what your point is. If your point is that you need a player like Kawhi to win -- I agree. But it doesn't help when Kawhi forces you into bad personnel decisions. Kawhi needed to be patient -- he hurt his team and his ability to win future titles tremendously by his demands in the offseason -- that is why he was a bad "GM" this year.

The clippers need to let a few guys walk, evaluate Doc (and who would be available if they booted him) and then just go back with Kawhi and PG.
And re-tool with what exactly? No cap space. No draft picks. They are likely forced to overpay Harrell.
They better make it work in 2021, because Leonard and George are not getting younger, and Kawhi unfortunately has those lingering health issues that I hope he overcomes.


The Raps fans should just be happy Kawhi came into their lives. You got your title. You beat the Dubs. Enjoy it. You aren't winning a title with Pascal and Lowry.
I am very happy with Kawhi the player and the championship. He was a total professional in Toronto and lead us to a title in 2019.

But I am not happy with the way he left -- it was very unprofessional and his demands (legal and illegal via Uncle Dennis) did not help wherever he would have chosen to go. And I am not wrong in saying that he hurt the chances of whatever team he went to tremendously this year.

That being said since the Raptors don't have George/Westbrook weighing down the cap and taking away assets, they have a lot of flexibility and picks to try to regroup by the 2022 season. (for example possibly making a run at Giannis)

The Clippers will be likely be a much bigger title contender in 2021 than the Raptors. But after that is very debatable. I am a much more happy about 2022 and beyond with the Raptors then then Clippers.

Also, I don't need to be told what I should be and should not be happy about. Thanks.
 
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Newhouser

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Kawhi wins either way - if they stink he opts out and signs with someone he can put over the top. Clippers are in trouble in 2022.
 

jncuse

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Kawhi wins either way - if they stink he opts out and signs with someone he can put over the top. Clippers are in trouble in 2022.
Hopefully he has the common sense though not to interfere in the GM's personnel decisions wherever he goes next time. That meddling hurt his chances at a title tremendously with the Clips and even if he had stayed with the "new" Raps with George and Westbrook. As I said above, last offseason he basically decided he was better at being a GM than people like Ujiri/Bobby Webster and whomever the Clips decision makers are.

He should have signed on somewhere and trusted them to handle the building / finishing process regarding personnel. Not force them into immediate rushed moves where his new team has no leverage.
 

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Honestly I doubt Kawhi leaves again so soon. He went to LA because he wanted to play in LA and they were able to bring in a friend to play with him. I don't think he's just going to bounce around a million teams just because he wanted out of San Antonio once and then got forced to Toronto.
 

jncuse

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Honestly I doubt Kawhi leaves again so soon. He went to LA because he wanted to play in LA and they were able to bring in a friend to play with him. I don't think he's just going to bounce around a million teams just because he wanted out of San Antonio once and then got forced to Toronto.
I could be wrong on this, but from what I understand Kawhi / George were not friends. They didn't dislike each other either, but they were not close. Kawhi saw George as the piece that could help him win the title in LA.

3 things appeared to be important to Kawhi last year:
1) Playing at Home.
2) Being a top contender
3) He couldn't trust a GM to make a move for him after signing. It had to be done before signing.

He thought he got them all via the George trade. It's quite possible that after next season he will not be able to get all of those conditions. The Clippers might no longer be in the top contender position, and he will not be able to force them to make a big move as they have nothing to give.

So we will see if it's all about the hometown or not, "IF" the Clips falter a bit. I agree if it's all about home he stays, but he is someone who really wants to win so I am not certain that will be the ultimate decision.

We also need to consider his health. For his sake, and my appreciation for him as a player with the Raptors, I hope the stays at a high level for a number of years. But his injury seems like one that could regress quickly. So financially he may choose not to opt out.
 

Newhouser

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Hopefully he has the common sense though not to interfere in the GM's personnel decisions wherever he goes next time. That meddling hurt his chances at a title tremendously with the Clips and even if he had stayed with the "new" Raps with George and Westbrook. As I said above, last offseason he basically decided he was better at being a GM than people like Ujiri/Bobby Webster and whomever the Clips decision makers are.

He should have signed on somewhere and trusted them to handle the building / finishing process regarding personnel. Not force them into immediate rushed moves where his new team has no leverage.
I agree.
 

Cusefan0307

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No guarantee the Clippers even get to this round next year if they change coaches. The Nuggets and Mavs should both be better. The Lakers should be as good or maybe slightly worse. The Warriors should be back to a 50 win team. The West is going to be stacked.
 
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STEVEHOLT

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It was disappointingly amazing...
I don’t see how it’s not a goaltend..his hand is over the cylinder and makes contact with a ball on its way down during a shot attempt .. how has nobody brought this up ? And I’m rooting for the Heat
 

MikeSU02

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#1) You are changing the narrative around. Yes I agree that you make the move you are now forced into if you are the Clippers. I am not blaming the Clippers GM for making the moves to get him. I am blaming Kawhi for making things much harder for the GM by poor demands.

Kawhi as pseudo "GM" is forcing the Clippers to make a trade with awful leverage (i.e it has to be done quickly over a few days) and for a player with skeptical playoff history I stated above you can trade SGA and the picks later, but let things breathe and re-establish a leverage position. If Kawhi had just signed on, and let the GM team work out something as time passed things could have worked out much better for him and the team. But when you let superstars manage your GM decisions it often does not work out for you -- but you have no choice if that is the way the superstar wants to be. You could have acquired someone this year (even Paul George) and given away much less assets in the process, and if you needed to re-tool you still have draft picks in 2020/2021 offseason... but now they have no assets this summer because they lost them all because they lacked leverage when they made the George deal.

#2) You also overlooked my point that Kawhi wanted to trash the Raptors of what was speculated to be Siakam, Lowry + Assets + Picks for George and Westbrook. That was his demand - get George and Westbrook He wanted to dismantle a team that just won the NBA title, and subsequently ran it back and went 53-19 without him and nearly made the ECF. Was that good player assessment by Kawhi? He could have stayed with the Raptors, stuck with what they have, and asked Ujiri to look into trading the younger assets and picks over the next year or two, and the results would have been much more productive for him then asking them to trade for George/Westbrook immediately. If winning was his most important thing, then why does he think he can make better personnel decisions than Masai Ujiri?


#3) Not every GM was willing to blow up their team to try to keep Kawhi. Masai did not destroy the future of the team to get a chump like Westbrook, and they are still positioned to make a run at Giannis in 2021, and still have some picks for the next 7 years unlike the Clippers.

Kawhi should have just signed on to where he thought was best and not asked teams to rush into trades and lose valuable assets in the process. Let GM's manage their team - that is what they are paid to do and are better than Uncle Dennis at it.



Agreed, but not sure what your point is. If your point is that you need a player like Kawhi to win -- I agree. But it doesn't help when Kawhi forces you into bad personnel decisions. Kawhi needed to be patient -- he hurt his team and his ability to win future titles tremendously by his demands in the offseason -- that is why he was a bad "GM" this year.



And re-tool with what exactly? No cap space. No draft picks. They are likely forced to overpay Harrell.
They better make it work in 2021, because Leonard and George are not getting younger, and Kawhi unfortunately has those lingering health issues that I hope he overcomes.




I am very happy with Kawhi the player and the championship. He was a total professional in Toronto and lead us to a title in 2019.

But I am not happy with the way he left -- it was very unprofessional and his demands (legal and illegal via Uncle Dennis) did not help wherever he would have chosen to go. And I am not wrong in saying that he hurt the chances of whatever team he went to tremendously this year.

That being said since the Raptors don't have George/Westbrook weighing down the cap and taking away assets, they have a lot of flexibility and picks to try to regroup by the 2022 season. (for example possibly making a run at Giannis)

The Clippers will be likely be a much bigger title contender in 2021 than the Raptors. But after that is very debatable. I am a much more happy about 2022 and beyond with the Raptors then then Clippers.

Also, I don't need to be told what I should be and should not be happy about. Thanks.
Last line - I'm not saying you = you jncuse, I mean Raps fans. Not being personal. Apologies if it came off like that.

Second, yes, Westbrook isn't a good choice, but here's the deal from POV:
> You need a top star to win and at least another star to win.
> Bron and KD were moving and Kawhi didn't want to be left out once those two made the next gen "super teams" even though they aren't on the level of the Dubs. Steph has been working on Giannis for multiple years. Kawhi is just doing his move, marrying it with the fact he wants to be in SoCal.
> So he isn't a good GM, that's fine. That's why you don't listen to him.
> Here is where we are now: Kawhi and PG13 are in the area they wanted to get to (SoCal), Ballmer is the wealthiest owner, and they are going to be able to re-load, they'll spend what they need to. We heard that all these teams are stuck and then becomes unstuck: Heatles, Dubs, etc, but they still pull it off. It's the stars' league.
> Kawhi never wanted to be in Toronto. You were in an arranged marriage and won a historic title. If it burns you the way he left, that's fine. But it should not have been a surprise.
> If Ballmer can re-sign Kawhi (and that's all he needs to do), they are still competing and they are a destination with a top player, new arena and are in LA and, again, the wealthiest owner.

I'm not sure what the future of Toronto looks like. The best they can hope for is that Giannis goes west and the east stays a level below the west. They'll have opportunities to sneak into the Finals.
 

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