NBA Thread 2019-20 Season

[MikeSU02]

Yup I was definitely thinking about that. I could totally see him playing now, getting it drilled into his head how valuable 3 pointers are, and then taking a million three pointers every day in practice and becoming a 38% shooter or something.

You really need to look at the roster of the 87 Bulls. It's...not good. I guess it answers the question of how you can not even be 500 with Michael Jordan on your roster. would love to see some of the on/off splits for Jordan that year.

1986-87 Chicago Bulls Roster and Stats | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest Chicago Bulls Roster and Stats for 1986-87 on Basketball-Reference.com

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Love this discussion.

1) I agree that I think he would be a good three point shooter.
2) Can you imagine his percentage at the rim now?

I kind of see his game (and I consider him to be the best player ever) to essentially be a combination of Kawhi and the absolute best parts of Russ (when he's just unstoppable getting to the rim) or maybe a young Derrick Rose.

 

[OrangeDW]

Love this discussion.

1) I agree that I think he would be a good three point shooter.
2) Can you imagine his percentage at the rim now?

I kind of see his game (and I consider him to be the best player ever) to essentially be a combination of Kawhi and the absolute best parts of Russ (when he's just unstoppable getting to the rim) or maybe a young Derrick Rose.

88 Jordan is the Russ component...with the ‘00 Vince athleticism. Funny - as much as we hear about how today’s guys are better athletes - I think the best “in air” players with the most creativity are still Mike - Nique -Vince - Dr. J - and Kemp?

 

[MikeSU02]

88 Jordan is the Russ component...with the ‘00 Vince athleticism. Funny - as much as we hear about how today’s guys are better athletes - I think the best “in air” players with the most creativity are still Mike - Nique -Vince - Dr. J - and Kemp?

Hard to argue any of those choices. I do always think we take LeBron's athleticism for granted because of how great he is, I think he can hang with those guys. But otherwise, ya, I'm with you.

I also can't believe Vince is still playing!

 

[Knicks411]

88 Jordan is the Russ component...with the ‘00 Vince athleticism. Funny - as much as we hear about how today’s guys are better athletes - I think the best “in air” players with the most creativity are still Mike - Nique -Vince - Dr. J - and Kemp?

Zach Lavine maybe if you want a current day guy? His dunk contest performances are legendary (as much as a dunk contest performance can be legendary)

 

[Arangeman]

MJ took 1.5 years off in the middle of his prime. Kareem had to start yoga to extend his career. Magic obviously retired early and, I think we can all agree, wasn't exactly a force on defense during his playing time.

The guys in the 80s weren't exactly in tip top shape. You should know that (and I know you do) extremely well as a Celtics fan with Bird (and I love Bird). These guys are monsters now, comparatively.

Guys now are in way better shape and have to run way more than they did in the 80s. Maybe the game was more physical back then in a grab and clutch and hard foul sort of way, but not nearly in rotations and distance traveled during a game.

To your point about regular season / playoffs - I think everyone realizes that killing all back to backs and/or reducing the number of games to somewhere between 70-75 is the right thing to do.

The issue with the complaints about sitting out a healthy player is that you can't say "well, we sat X player this game because our magic 8 ball said he would tear his MCL in 20 games if we didn't". So you can't argue all the injuries that haven't occurred. However, I think after last year, it's safe to say that you're going to take 60 regular season games from Kawhi and a title versus 80 games and no title. I also think with KD's injury, no star player is really going to chance it.

Finally, is this that big an issue outside of Kawhi? It just seems like every time Kawhi sits, it's considered a systemic issue across all teams. And Kawhi has a chronic injury. He's going to do this until he retires. If you sign him, you sign up for this, period. But you are also getting arguably the best two way player in the league when he's on.

i agree guys have to run more, do more, but as you also state, they are in better shape. They fly in comfortable, private planes. They have teams of trainers, nutritionists, massage therapists, etc. Every possible modern technology is at their disposal. They are not inclined to play through soreness or injuries, which is probably wise.

In the Magic era, teams had one trainer. Travel was a nightmare. Bird’s Celtics weren’t going out for Acai bowls after a game. That Jordan story about playing 36 holes and boozing all day with Roenick and then going out and dropping 50 that night is a good example. Those guys played through whatever without the resources or desire to take care of themselves properly.

i believe that the modern load management days, though lousy for fans, are beneficial and here to stay. But let’s not dismiss the attitude and toughness it took to show up and go hard every night. It wasn’t just the style of play that enabled this. You didn’t have to run around as much but you were also getting punched in the neck and slammed to the floor on a nightly basis.

 

[Newhouser]

I was thinking about this recently actually. In 87 he averaged 37.1 (that was a few years before I followed sports and it just blew my mind someone could score 37 a game when I read about it growing up).
Something I didn't know until I just looked it up; the 87 Bulls played at the slowest pace in the league, about 93 possessions per game. Last year the Rockets were also near the bottom of the league, around 98 possessions per game.

So I think if you brought Jordan forward to today, he would be picking up a few possessions a game, not exactly worth a lot, but not nothing. But the biggest thing you would be the way the game is officiated, I have to assume that like Harden, Jordan would be absolutely living at the line. It also blows my mind that Jordan scored 37 points per game that year and made 12 three pointers all season. (The bulls made 78 all season as a team. They took 299 as a team. Harden took 3.4x as many himself last year.

I know you were half joking, but like I said, I was wondering it myself. Something working against Jordan would be I think defenses now are overall better. God, the rest of that Bulls team was such garbage. Realistically though, Harden is about maxing out usage and efficiency, I am not sure how much more anyone could really score than him.

That 12 three point hoops stat is amazing.

 

[Melancer46]

Robert Parish to me. My buddy had the Duckworth pull as well, for some reason I don't remember that.



Obviously not to knock Giannis or anything, the guy is unreal, but I read a piece from someone at the Athletic laying out what is easy enough for anyone to see; due to the pace and style of the game now, there are more stats (points, reb, ast) etc available to guys. Seems like every team has at least one guy with a ridiculous stat line. That said, 30-14-6 is insane. And here's another one; James Harden is averaging 39 points a game.

Style of play for sure, but the pace itself is still slower than it was for most of the league's history. And as far as style of play goes, Giannis has obviously benefited from the court spacing that his teammates have brought, but it's not as if he's really knocking down 3's. He certainly isn't attempted over 20 3 pointers in a game like Harden is lol.

At any rate, I think his numbers are pretty outrageous regardless of era. Nobody in the history of the league (at least dating back as far as being able to track 100 possessions) has ever averaged the 40/19 per 100 possessions that Giannis currently is, and he's doing that along with over 8 assists per 100 and DPOY level defense.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Harden took 41 shots and 22 3’s. How could anyone enjoy playing with him?

They don't.

 

[Melancer46]

Fascinating article for The Athletic subscribers:

Hollinger: The three-shot foul is a bad rule, badly enforced, with bad side effects— It needs to go

Awarding three free throws on a 3-point foul brings out the worst in shooters and it hamstrings officials. It's long past time for a change.

theathletic.com

TLDR:

Hollinger proposes that the NBA gives two free throws to shooters that are fouled on a 3 point attempt for the first 46 minutes of the game. The last two minutes of the game, when the rules change in a lot of other areas, shooters can start getting 3 free throws to avoid incentivizing intentional fouls. The reasons for this:

1. A 3 point foul is four times more valuable than a regular 3 point shot, while a 2 point foul is basically worth the same amount as a regular 2 point shot. A 3 point foul's expected points added is actually greater than that of a flagrant foul (where the shooter gets two shots and possession of the ball to potentially score again).

2. The fact that a 3 point foul is so insanely valuable inspires shooters to attempt shots they would never otherwise attempt.

3. The 3 point foul, coupled with the league's emphasis on protecting shooters, has led to shooters risking injury on jumpers more than it ever was back when defenders would sometimes slide under the shooter's feet.

4. Due to where refs are trained to stand, they aren't able to be in position to identify shooters that are sticking their legs out on shots, so refs get the call wrong most of the time to begin with.

5. The 3 point foul incentivizes all teams to play basically the same way, chucking up 3's every possession. Reducing it a 2 point foul would create a higher likelihood of the return of the mid-range jumper for example.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Fascinating article for The Athletic subscribers:

Hollinger: The three-shot foul is a bad rule, badly enforced, with bad side effects— It needs to go

Awarding three free throws on a 3-point foul brings out the worst in shooters and it hamstrings officials. It's long past time for a change.

theathletic.com

TLDR:

Hollinger proposes that the NBA gives two free throws to shooters that are fouled on a 3 point attempt for the first 46 minutes of the game. The last two minutes of the game, when the rules change in a lot of other areas, shooters can start getting 3 free throws to avoid incentivizing intentional fouls. The reasons for this:

1. A 3 point foul is four times more valuable than a regular 3 point shot, while a 2 point foul is basically worth the same amount as a regular 2 point shot. A 3 point foul's expected points added is actually greater than that of a flagrant foul (where the shooter gets two shots and possession of the ball to potentially score again).

2. The fact that a 3 point foul is so insanely valuable inspires shooters to attempt shots they would never otherwise attempt.

3. The 3 point foul, coupled with the league's emphasis on protecting shooters, has led to shooters risking injury on jumpers more than it ever was back when defenders would sometimes slide under the shooter's feet.

4. Due to where refs are trained to stand, they aren't able to be in position to identify shooters that are sticking their legs out on shots, so refs get the call wrong most of the time to begin with.

5. The 3 point foul incentivizes all teams to play basically the same way, chucking up 3's every possession. Reducing it a 2 point foul would create a higher likelihood of the return of the mid-range jumper for example.

Call it what it is. The Harden rule.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Call it what it is. The Harden rule.

Yeah, that's what I thought of.

 

[jncuse]

I think good proof of this is his second act: Mike actually shot 43% from 3 in ‘96 and 37% in ‘97. Completely different style of play, but yeah if the 3 was the goal instead of the post up turnaround fade-away J? We know what would’ve happened...he would’ve shot a lot more 3s and made a lot more.

Three point stats from 1995 to 1997 are essentially meaningless (in comparison to other years in that era). The three point line was moved in by nearly 2 feet in that 3 year period... which is substantial. No surprise Jordan shot much better those years .. the whole league did.

Not to say that Jordan would not be a very good 3 point shooter today...he would be.

 

[samspann1]

 

[Alsacs]

S

So Nike makes a script Syracuse Carmelo retro jersey and they won't even make those our primary road uniforms.

Cmon. Leave Nike SU. That uniform should be our primary road jersey. It's clean, classic and identifies Syracuse basketball.

 

[Knicks411]

Style of play for sure, but the pace itself is still slower than it was for most of the league's history. And as far as style of play goes, Giannis has obviously benefited from the court spacing that his teammates have brought, but it's not as if he's really knocking down 3's. He certainly isn't attempted over 20 3 pointers in a game like Harden is lol.

At any rate, I think his numbers are pretty outrageous regardless of era. Nobody in the history of the league (at least dating back as far as being able to track 100 possessions) has ever averaged the 40/19 per 100 possessions that Giannis currently is, and he's doing that along with over 8 assists per 100 and DPOY level defense.

Yeah I def didn't want to knock Giannis, he's amazing. (maybe even a freak?) It's more I was thinking of the story I read when I read your post. And looking at the #s per 100 possessions obviously also takes care of a lot that.

14 rebounds in 33 MPG is just insane to me. I believe both Lopez brothers are really good at boxing out and keeping guys off the glass but not actually getting the rebound themselves, which helps, but still. When I think of guys with those kind of rebounding numbers, it's more of the big bruising types.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

So no way to flex the gsw out of all these nationally televised games ? Just show another game please

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Fascinating article for The Athletic subscribers:

Hollinger: The three-shot foul is a bad rule, badly enforced, with bad side effects— It needs to go

Awarding three free throws on a 3-point foul brings out the worst in shooters and it hamstrings officials. It's long past time for a change.

theathletic.com

TLDR:

Hollinger proposes that the NBA gives two free throws to shooters that are fouled on a 3 point attempt for the first 46 minutes of the game. The last two minutes of the game, when the rules change in a lot of other areas, shooters can start getting 3 free throws to avoid incentivizing intentional fouls. The reasons for this:

1. A 3 point foul is four times more valuable than a regular 3 point shot, while a 2 point foul is basically worth the same amount as a regular 2 point shot. A 3 point foul's expected points added is actually greater than that of a flagrant foul (where the shooter gets two shots and possession of the ball to potentially score again).

2. The fact that a 3 point foul is so insanely valuable inspires shooters to attempt shots they would never otherwise attempt.

3. The 3 point foul, coupled with the league's emphasis on protecting shooters, has led to shooters risking injury on jumpers more than it ever was back when defenders would sometimes slide under the shooter's feet.

4. Due to where refs are trained to stand, they aren't able to be in position to identify shooters that are sticking their legs out on shots, so refs get the call wrong most of the time to begin with.

5. The 3 point foul incentivizes all teams to play basically the same way, chucking up 3's every possession. Reducing it a 2 point foul would create a higher likelihood of the return of the mid-range jumper for example.

so if you are fouled and hit the three.. no foul shot ?

I can see mass muggings going on if they change this rule

 

[Melancer46]

so if you are fouled and hit the three.. no foul shot ?

I can see mass muggings going on if they change this rule

I would guess you still get a free throw in that case but I don’t think he specified in the article.

And fouling a 3 point shooter only makes sense if they’re like a 50% 3 point shooter and a 60% free throw shooter and those guys simply don’t exist.

 

[jncuse]

Ben Simmons finally hit his first career three pointer. With that his career 3 point% increases from 0% to 5%.

Also, he now has as many career threes as choke holds.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Anyone else think Kawhi looks kind of fat this year?

 

[Day2]

Anyone else think Kawhi looks kind of fat this year?

No, but that was a great game last night.

 

[Knicks411]

I would guess you still get a free throw in that case but I don’t think he specified in the article.

And fouling a 3 point shooter only makes sense if they’re like a 50% 3 point shooter and a 60% free throw shooter and those guys simply don’t exist.

Hollinger's idea was you would get 2 shots if it happened in the first 46 minutes, and then in the final 2 you would get 3 shots.

I forget who pointed this out, but once I read it, it kind of blew my mind, and it makes me lean toward agreeing with Hollingers idea. The single most efficient offensive play in basketball is to get fouled on a 3 pointer. A wide open dunk that you have 100% chance of making is worth 2 points, whereas 3 foul shots for anyone shooting over 66.7% from the line is worth more than that. Which just kind of creates a weird incentive

 

[Melancer46]

Hollinger's idea was you would get 2 shots if it happened in the first 46 minutes, and then in the final 2 you would get 3 shots.

I forget who pointed this out, but once I read it, it kind of blew my mind, and it makes me lean toward agreeing with Hollingers idea. The single most efficient offensive play in basketball is to get fouled on a 3 pointer. A wide open dunk that you have 100% chance of making is worth 2 points, whereas 3 foul shots for anyone shooting over 66.7% from the line is worth more than that. Which just kind of creates a weird incentive

yeah, Hollinger easily won me over on an idea I had never even considered before. It makes a ton of sense.

 

[Knicks411]

yeah, Hollinger easily won me over on an idea I had never even considered before. It makes a ton of sense.

Totally agree. I've enjoyed having him back in the media. His podcast with Nate Duncan is pretty good as well

 

[OrangeDW]

Melo with a patented “I GOT IT, F&CK OUTTA HERE!!!” while grabbing a rebound that was easily caught by the TNT mics. Always hilarious.

He’s playing well. 15 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists so far.