NBA Thread 2020-21 Season

[Fireball Jr.]

This is sweet. What will be even sweeter is when Carmelo gets his ring with the Lakers.

 

[Day2]

From what I read, since he declined his option he can no longer sign any long term max extension (has something to do with being the fact that it was only a 1 year contract initially). If he had accepted the option he could have signed a 4 year extension.

The longest he can sign for right now with max salary is another 1+1. Then next summer he can do a 5 year super max extension.

Right now I would think the discussions are the following:
1) Kawhi wants a "wink, wink" agreement that Ballmer will give him a 5 year extension next summer 2) Whether he sits out the entire season or not.

There is not much to negotiate right now, except the "wink, wink" stuff and whether Kawhi can sit out this entire season

But theoretically since nothing can be put on paper this offseason both sides can snake the other next summer. Which is why I assume Kawhi may not even bother playing this year.

“The terms of Leonard’s contract were still being discussed Friday afternoon, two people familiar with the negotiations said. He is eligible to sign for up to four years and $176 million now. A two-year contract with an option for the second season would afford Leonard both leverage again next offseason and the possibility of maximizing his money by adding a five-year extension worth around $230 million.”

-LA Times

 

[Newhouser]

After two more years the Clips may want to move on from Leonard.

 

[Knicks411]

Randle will be the highest paid player on the Knicks and not even crack the top 50 highest paid players in the league. Seems like a solid deal for an all-star caliber player.

I'm sure he's going to revert back to 19-20 Randle to make me look like a fool, but I think the Kemba and Randle deals turned this from a B-/C+ off-season for the Knicks to like an A-

 

[jncuse]

“The terms of Leonard’s contract were still being discussed Friday afternoon, two people familiar with the negotiations said. He is eligible to sign for up to four years and $176 million now. A two-year contract with an option for the second season would afford Leonard both leverage again next offseason and the possibility of maximizing his money by adding a five-year extension worth around $230 million.”

-LA Times

Yes you are correct he could sign such an extension. I read a few more reports (see link below) and see where I had my error. That being said it still doesn't really change the negotiation parameters that are happening right now.

A few people reported in the past weeks that they were surprised he did not opt in as he was no longer eligible to sign a 4 year extension beyond that if he opted in. They then mentioned the 1+1 option to get the 5 year supermax extension next summer. My reading of this was by opting out he was no longer available for a long extension (that was my error).


Kawhi Leonard has a path to a $246 million contract, but this crucial offseason will decide if he ever gets there (From July 1)

"If Leonard opts out of his contract this summer and decides he wants to stay with the Clippers long-term, he could sign a four-year, $175 million contract, according to The Athletic's John Hollinger. Such a deal would be the eighth largest in the NBA in terms of total cash.

According to ESPN's Bobby Marks, Leonard could sign a four-year extension with the Clippers if he opts into his deal for 2021-22. That extension would be worth $181.5 million. When combined with his $36 million option for next season, it would be like signing a five-year, $217 million deal."



This however still makes for potentially tense negotiations with the exact same issues as my initial post above (can they reach a wink/wink 1+1, or can Kawhi sit out all year) If Kawhi was looking for security given his injury situation he would have just opted in and taken the extension which gives him 5 years of max money. Now all he can get is 4 years of max money. So I am fairly certain he has no interest in that 4 year contract entering this negotiation.

He is probably looking for the 1+1, with a "wink/wink" for the 5 year supermax extension next summer, where the average will be a fair amount higher.

And this is where his injury situation and trust issues with management (everywhere) come into play.
- Can he trust Ballmer will give him the supermax if he suffers another serious injury or does not recover greatly from this one. Nothing can be formally put on paper regarding a future extension. That is a violation of the CBA.
- This is where sitting out the entire season could come into play as a leverage ploy for Kawhi to protect his worth.

In the end I could see Kawhi folding and taking a 4 year extension since building trust is not one of his strengths and he is in his preferred location. The 4 year extension would be a win for the Clippers. Locking in for 4 years is better than 5 years, and Kawhi would have an incentive to come back as soon as reasonably possible to compete for 2022 postseason. It would also be a negotiation loss by Kawhi -- so who knows how that would make him feel.

However, if the deal signed is a 1+1, drama this upcoming year is not out of the question. Will he come back from injury this season? Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Alsacs]

 

[jordville]

Such BS. I imagine that here is always some level of tampering. Don't pick and choose, NBA/Silver.

 

[jncuse]

Such BS. I imagine that here is always some level of tampering. Don't pick and choose, NBA/Silver.

I don't know why the league is so infatuated with these early sign and trade deals instead of early signings (without sign and trade). They are all just as likely to have tampering. Yet this is what they focus on.

It's not like an early sign and trade deal has more "shade" then a regular signing. Teams are allowed to discuss the parameters of a sign and trade deal before the window opens so most of the parameters can be worked out. That is not tampering in itself if the player is not involved. In the Miami and Toronto deal its not like one can argue that there was no reason for Miami to think his signing was realistic. They knew (which they were allowed to know) that Lowry asked to be traded to Philly, Miami or the Lakers at last year's trade deadline.

All that is required is the sign off from the player on a contract -- the exact same as a regular signing without a trade.

Am I denying tampering in these deals. Not at all - but it happens in all those early hour deals. Picking on these particular S&T ones is totally arbitrary. It's no more implausible for a player to agree to a sign and trade contract deal 5 minutes after the window opens then a regular free agent signing 5 minutes post window.

 

[Alsacs]

Such BS. I imagine that here is always some level of tampering. Don't pick and choose, NBA/Silver.

Pat Riley is a notorious tampering guy.
If anyone should get hit then him.

 

[jordville]

I don't know why the league is so infatuated with these early sign and trade deals instead of early signings (without sign and trade). They are all just as likely to have tampering. Yet this is what they focus on.

It's not like an early sign and trade deal has more "shade" then a regular signing. Teams are allowed to discuss the parameters of a sign and trade deal before the window opens so most of the parameters can be worked out. That is not tampering in itself if the player is not involved. In the Miami and Toronto deal its not like one can argue that there was no reason for Miami to think his signing was realistic. They knew (which they were allowed to know) that Lowry asked to be traded to Philly, Miami or the Lakers at last year's trade deadline.

All that is required is the sign off from the player on a contract -- the exact same as a regular signing without a trade.

Am I denying tampering in these deals. Not at all - but it happens in all those early hour deals. Picking on these particular S&T ones is totally arbitrary. It's no more implausible for a player to agree to a sign and trade contract deal 5 minutes after the window opens then a regular free agent signing 5 minutes post window.

Agreed. Bulls have had interest in Ball as they tried making a deal for him in the past. There is history between the two teams. No deal was reached, so it has been obvious that they were going to try and sign Lonzo. And he wanted Chicago too. Again, NBA looks foolish here picking these 2 particular deals and looking past everything else.

 

[jncuse]

If the league rescinds either of these deals (like the Bogdan deal), it would be a total mess.

I stand to be corrected, but I believe that the NBA rescinded the Bucks-Kings deal before the official signing period starting. If this deal gets rescinded, then certain official signings will need to be rescinded as well as they are no longer cap compliant.

 

[jordville]

 

[jncuse]

My gut is that one of those that complained was that turd Darryl Morey.
Nothing to lead to that conclusion other than him being a turd.
George Hill is awesome.

 

[jncuse]

Thanks for clarifying that, I thought the deal was rescinded. So in the end why didn't the Bucks / Kings deal get done. Was there an intervening move by one of the teams that complicated things? Melancer you must remember.

EDIT - re-reading those tweets it seems like the Bucks compliance in not officially completing the deal once FA started saved them some penalties and maybe that is why they did no deal. I am still confused.

 

[jordville]

Thanks for clarifying that, I thought the deal was rescinded. So in the end why didn't the Bucks / Kings deal get done. Was there an intervening move by one of the teams that complicated things? Melancer you must remember.

EDIT - re-reading those tweets it seems like the Bucks compliance in not officially completing the deal once FA started saved them some penalties and maybe that is why they did no deal. I am still confused.

I think that was the case with the Bucks. League started sniffing and talks stopped, etc.

Bulls haven't officially announced Lonzo deal. Miami did with Lowry though. Semantics either way.

For the Bulls sake, they have been trying to trade for Ball since last season. The framework of a trade would've already been in place had the parameters of a Ball trade in place.

 

[Alsacs]

I think that was the case with the Bucks. League started sniffing and talks stopped, etc.

Bulls haven't officially announced Lonzo deal. Miami did with Lowry though. Semantics either way.

For the Bulls sake, they have been trying to trade for Ball since last season. The framework of a trade would've already been in place had the parameters of a Ball trade in place.

The Bulls will just get fined as Reinsdorf is cheap.

I hope Miami loses draft picks. Riley tampers a lot.

 

[Alsacs]

Twitter is saying LeBron and Anthony Davis violated rule 35 in the CBA for tampering when they admitted they met with Russell Westbrook but the NBA is going after Chicago.

 

[Melancer46]

If the league rescinds either of these deals (like the Bogdan deal), it would be a total mess.

I stand to be corrected, but I believe that the NBA rescinded the Bucks-Kings deal before the official signing period starting. If this deal gets rescinded, then certain official signings will need to be rescinded as well as they are no longer cap compliant.

The NBA didn’t rescind the Bogdanovic deal. Bogdanovic leaked the deal so that Atlanta knew they had to increase their offer (since they too were tampering) and then Bogdanovic took the extra money and ran. But the NBA took the fact that the Bucks didn’t even get him and also didn’t have proof that they had negotiated a contract with him into consideration when figuring out what the penalty would be.

Bogdanovic’s agent has done this same thing in the past once or twice as well.

 

[Melancer46]

Twitter is saying LeBron and Anthony Davis violated rule 35 in the CBA for tampering when they admitted they met with Russell Westbrook but the NBA is going after Chicago.

Yeah, I read that back when the meeting details were released. I’m pretty sure the NBA has said that they don’t care if players tamper with each other so I was shocked to see that there’s actually a rule against it.

 

[Alsacs]

l

Yeah, I read that back when the meeting details were released. I’m pretty sure the NBA has said that they don’t care if players tamper with each other so I was shocked to see that there’s actually a rule against it.

Chicago has traded a lot of future picks. I don’t know how the NBA would punish them.
Miami has picks.

Maybe fines I don’t see more.

 

[Melancer46]

l

Chicago has traded a lot of future picks. I don’t know how the NBA would punish them.
Miami has picks.

Maybe fines I don’t see more.

Milwaukee had traded almost every future pick at the time too and the NBA still found a way. If there’s actually proof of wrongdoing here, and the Chicago gets the player, it would be pretty nuts if they don’t at least lose multiple 2nd round picks. I think it’s silly that we’re doing this song and dance again when every team does it, but it will be a very bad look if the NBA says they found proof, and in this case it would be worse than the Milwaukee situation since they’re actually getting the player they tampered with, and then give them a lighter punishment.

 

[jordville]

Mark Stein said this on Twitter...
"The NBA is always more apt to investigate sign-and-trade deals that potentially jump the gun compared to straight free-agent signings because sign-and-trade deals require more cooperation among three or more parties and increase the possibility that wrongdoing can be proven. It is difficult to envision the NBA invalidating Miami's sign-and-trade deal for Kyle Lowry or Chicago's expected acquisition of Lonzo Ball, but the penalties for wrongdoing -- if proven -- would have to be much stiffer than what Milwaukee faced in the Bogdan Bogdanovic case. Milwaukee was only fined $50,000 and docked a future second-round pick in large part because the Bucks, remember, did not get Bogdanovic in the end. If impermissible contact is proven in this summer's cases, wrist slaps won't cut it. Players huddling like Russ, LeBron and AD did before the Laker/Wiz trade does not typically lead to NBA intervention because the league says it can’t police player-to-player discussion."

Bobby Mark's said this on Twitter...
"I don’t believe that the trades will get voided if the parties are guilty of wrongdoing. However, the penalties will definitely be more severe than what we saw last year with Milwaukee."

 

[jncuse]

The NBA didn’t rescind the Bogdanovic deal. Bogdanovic leaked the deal so that Atlanta knew they had to increase their offer (since they too were tampering) and then Bogdanovic took the extra money and ran. But the NBA took the fact that the Bucks didn’t even get him and also didn’t have proof that they had negotiated a contract with him into consideration when figuring out what the penalty would be.

Bogdanovic’s agent has done this same thing in the past once or twice as well.

The NBA press release (attached above) states there was proof of the Bucks tampering as there was discussions between the two before the window, but since they didn't complete the deal itself nor did they negotiate a contract (next paragraph) it lessened its penalty.

So if a team has discussions and also completes the contract negotiation prior to the window, they should get larger penalties based on that standard.

I suppose if a team has discussions before the window, and only completes the contract negotiations itself after the window they in theory might be subject to less penalties, but still more than a second rounder.

 

[jordville]

These "investigations" could take over a month to conclude. NBA opened the investigation against the Bucks on November 19, and it took the NBA until December 21 to conclude their investigation.

Lots of moving parts (players) and new deals made. Do the teams finalize these trades and just wait and see what the league "finds?"

 

[Alsacs]

Mark Stein said this on Twitter...
"The NBA is always more apt to investigate sign-and-trade deals that potentially jump the gun compared to straight free-agent signings because sign-and-trade deals require more cooperation among three or more parties and increase the possibility that wrongdoing can be proven. It is difficult to envision the NBA invalidating Miami's sign-and-trade deal for Kyle Lowry or Chicago's expected acquisition of Lonzo Ball, but the penalties for wrongdoing -- if proven -- would have to be much stiffer than what Milwaukee faced in the Bogdan Bogdanovic case. Milwaukee was only fined $50,000 and docked a future second-round pick in large part because the Bucks, remember, did not get Bogdanovic in the end. If impermissible contact is proven in this summer's cases, wrist slaps won't cut it. Players huddling like Russ, LeBron and AD did before the Laker/Wiz trade does not typically lead to NBA intervention because the league says it can’t police player-to-player discussion."

Bobby Mark's said this on Twitter...
"I don’t believe that the trades will get voided if the parties are guilty of wrongdoing. However, the penalties will definitely be more severe than what we saw last year with Milwaukee."

I love it ignores article 35 of the CBA expressly states players can’t meet while under contract and engage in discussions over playing together.

The NBA might not care about players doing it but the rules state it’s illegal.

It’s literally a rule.

Article 35A (e): Any Player who, directly or indirectly, entices, induces, persuades or attempts to entice, induce, or persuade any Player, Coach, Trainer, General Manager or any other person who is under contract to any other Member of the Association to enter into negotiations for or relating to his services or negotiates or contracts for such services shall, on being charged with such tampering, be given an opportunity to answer such charges after due notice and the Commissioner shall have the power to decide whether or not the charges have been sustained; in the event his decision is that the charges have been sustained, then the Commissioner shall have the power to suspend such Player for a definite or indefinite period, or to impose a fine not exceeding $50,000, or inflict both such suspension and fine upon any such Player.

Article 35A (): No person may, directly or indirectly, (i) entice, induce, persuade, or attempt to entice, induce or persuade, any Player who is under contract to, or whose exclusive negotiating rights are held by, any other Member of the Association to enter into negotiations for or relating to his services or negotiate or contract for such services or (ii) otherwise interfere with any such employer-employee relationship (or prospective employer-employee relationship in the case of a Player subject to exclusive negotiating rights) of any other Member of the Association. The Commissioner, either in his discretion or at the request of a Member who alleges that its Player has been tampered with, shall conduct an investigation into whether a person has violated 49 the anti-tampering rule set forth in the prior sentence. In the event that, following such investigation and a hearing at which the person (and the Member employing the person allegedly tampered with) has an opportunity to be heard after due notice, the Commissioner determines that the anti-tampering rule has been violated, he shall have the power, in his sole discretion, to impose a penalty for such offense, which penalty may include (without limitation) the suspension of such person for a definite or indefinite period; the prohibition of the Member employing or otherwise affiliated with the offending person from hiring the Player tampered with for a definite or indefinite period; the forfeiture of Draft picks held by the Member employing or otherwise affiliated with the offending person or the transfer of such Draft picks to the aggrieved Member; and/or the imposition of a fine upon the offending person and/or the Member employing or otherwise affiliated with such offending person in an amount not to exceed $5,000,000. In the event that the Commissioner imposes a fine, he may direct that some or all of the fine be paid directly to the Member aggrieved by the tampering