NBA Thread 2020-21 Season

[MikeSU02]

The Rockets created a culture that gave James Harden all the power

For years, Houston considered it good business to do whatever James Harden wanted. Now the franchise is dealing with the fallout.

www.espn.com

“it’s an organized professional AAU team” that is the perfect description for the Rockets.

Here's the thing - NBA stars always get a ton of leeway and shot calling for moves. This isn't new. Issue is is that with "great power comes great responsibility".

Wade put Bron in check in Miami and now Bron runs the show wherever he goes and puts in the work.

Kawhi does whatever he wants, but the dude has two Finals MVPs.

It's fine to give your star power, but if you give it to a guy that's going to take you on a rollercoaster ride, then you got to take the highs with the lows.

Also, not to absolve Morey here... he's looked at players with such coldness in terms of just being assets, that you can see him looking away some of this stuff more than others (and I'm a Morey fan).

 

[MikeSU02]

The 2021 NBA free agency class as a whole was being considered the best class ever and every team saved their cap space up for it. The best free agents for that class now (listed by WAR):

Kawhi Leonard (player option but he'll almost certainly stay)
Rudy Gobert
Kyle Lowry
Jrue Holiday (player option, would think the Bucks will do whatever it takes to keep him)
Chris Paul (player option that he'll almost certainly accept)
Duncan Robinson (restricted)
Danny Green
Hassan Whiteside
Montrezl Harrell (player option)
Derrick White (restricted)
Jarrett Allen (restricted)
Will Barton (player option)
Patty Mills
Dennis Schroder
Devonte Graham (restricted)
OG Anunoby (restricted)
Nemanja Bjelica
Alex Caruso

Assuming Kawhi opts in, this is rough FA class. Good news is that the draft over the next few years should have some exciting talent, plus the impending double draft, as well.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Hollinger has the Mavs being the 2nd best team in the west and a legit title contender. Obviously the caveat is if Porzingis is healthy(he never is).

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Hollinger has the Mavs being the 2nd best team in the west and a legit title contender. Obviously the caveat is if Porzingis is healthy(he never is).

I feel like last preseason I was the conductor of the Luka train, he had a huge year and great showing in the playoffs, and now I'm the guy thinking everyone is getting a little too ahead of themselves on the Mavs and think they might have a tougher year, still playoff worthy, but I don't think they make another leap quite yet. Go figure.

 

[Melancer46]

I feel like last preseason I was the conductor of the Luka train, he had a huge year and great showing in the playoffs, and now I'm the guy thinking everyone is getting a little too ahead of themselves on the Mavs and think they might have a tougher year, still playoff worthy, but I don't think they make another leap quite yet. Go figure.

Yep, I was banging the table for Luka as the obvious #1 pick in the draft and hyped him up like crazy ever since. He proved last year he's an MVP contender. I just don't think the rest of the team is good enough yet to really be the #2 team in the West. You gotta figure Porzingis will probably miss at least 10 games this year and their best player after him is...Josh Richardson? Tim Hardaway? I'm sure they'll be good but like I said, I think they probably end up in the 5-7 range in the West this year.

One thing that could potentially change this is that they have the pieces to make a significant trade now that they aren't really saving their cap space for anything.

 

[Cusefan0307]

So far Hollingers predictions in the west are:

Clippers
Mavs
Nuggets

Blazers
Jazz

Looks like he will have the Lakers coming in 4th.

 

[MikeSU02]

Yep, I was banging the table for Luka as the obvious #1 pick in the draft and hyped him up like crazy ever since. He proved last year he's an MVP contender. I just don't think the rest of the team is good enough yet to really be the #2 team in the West. You gotta figure Porzingis will probably miss at least 10 games this year and their best player after him is...Josh Richardson? Tim Hardaway? I'm sure they'll be good but like I said, I think they probably end up in the 5-7 range in the West this year.

One thing that could potentially change this is that they have the pieces to make a significant trade now that they aren't really saving their cap space for anything.

I disagree, but understand your point. Luka had arguably the greatest second year of any player... ever.

They needed perimeter D and they got that to go along with an historic offense.

They may not be the #2 team in the West, but I'll put them right in that next rung. I think they can get a home playoff series in the first round. They get Powell back and, imo, they had a VERY good draft.

 

[jncuse]

Here's the thing - NBA stars always get a ton of leeway and shot calling for moves. This isn't new. Issue is is that with "great power comes great responsibility".

Wade put Bron in check in Miami and now Bron runs the show wherever he goes and puts in the work.

Kawhi does whatever he wants, but the dude has two Finals MVPs.

It's fine to give your star power, but if you give it to a guy that's going to take you on a rollercoaster ride, then you got to take the highs with the lows.

Also, not to absolve Morey here... he's looked at players with such coldness in terms of just being assets, that you can see him looking away some of this stuff more than others (and I'm a Morey fan).

You cannot compare Lebron and Kawhi. (and you may not be). Lebron is a diva, but he is not a rollercoaster. Kawhi is a roller coaster.

Lebron puts in the work and leads the team in practice and dedication. Kawhi is about load management / practicing when he wants / skipping the odd practice / being a loner.

Kawhi already bailed on one team (San Antonio) and had teammates to a large extent bail on him (LAC last year). He is a risky proposition. When everything goes right it certainly can and has paid off, but it can go very poorly as well.

Kawhi worked in San Antonio and Toronto -- but they already had established and respected internal leadership structures that kept the team in check. They let him either just play, or lead on the court.

The Clippers did not have the proper established leadership structure to handle Kawhi last year and all the favours rubbed the supporting core the wrong way. I am not sure if it has changed enough this year. It helps that Paul George (I cheated on my coaches' daugther with a stripper and got the stripper pregnant) dynamic is no longer there. Serge Ibaka a respected veteran should also help in that regard.

Could the talent on the floor overcome the drama -- certainly it can, but it can also blow up. I give the Clippers a 20% chance of missing the playoffs this year. (Similar odds of winning it all to missing the playoffs)

I saw one poster above that said Kawhi is almost a guarantee to stay with the Clippers. Based on his history, I just see that as a really poor assertion to make. There are so many reasonable plausable scenarios with Kawhi -- win it all and stay, legit injury, non-legit injury, leave because he is not happy with others, ask to be traded.

And largely irrelevant to this -- I am amused by the fact that Kawhi thought it was fine to balance a 1 litre water gallon off his junk in front of teammates as part of an exercise routine

 

[jncuse]

I'm way more bullish on the Mavs than most people. I think if you have a player in the very top tier (Bron, Kawhi, Giannis, Luka, KD/Steph pending injury stuff), I think you are up there. Plus they got perimeter defense help and drafted well. They already had an historically great offense from last year.

I also think the true contenders are a smaller group: Lakers, Clips, Nets, Bucks.

Next level I see are the Cs, Sixers, Mavs, Nuggets... and I really only see the Mavs being able to really compete with the top four.

I agree with your smaller group of four contenders that have separated themselves based on talent / or past pedigree. What is interesting though about that group of 4, is they have some pretty big question marks -- the Kyrie factor, Durant recovery, Bucks playoff issues, Kawhi drama.

I like the Mavs, but I think it's too big a jump for them to get in the elite this year. They were in the "3rd tier" last year and they will comfortably progress, but typically there is a franchise progression.

I don't see the Sixers as much of a contender. They are better balanced though this year so who knows. But I would not really have them any higher than the Raptors.

If I had to choose a #5 and #6, I would have the Nuggets then Celtics. Nuggets have so many young or prime pieces.

And my championship pick is the Milwaukee Bucks. They will figure it out.

 

[jncuse]

Thanks to Otto and Mike for their feedback:

I will be setting up a league later today, and here is what I am thinking.

- Yahoo
- Probably 8 teams, since I have not seen an abundance of interest.
- Head to Head each week. Score by Category. (10 categories?)
- Roster Size of 15, Play 10 each week, 5 on bench.
- Trades Allowed (One per Week).
- Waiver Claims Allowed (One per Week)

Any other feedback or interest let me know.

 

[jncuse]

Assuming Kawhi opts in, this is rough FA class. Good news is that the draft over the next few years should have some exciting talent, plus the impending double draft, as well.

While the FA market is down, the trade market has got more interesting. Teams seem quite willing to trade a bunch of picks to finish off their roster and many teams in that 2nd tier and 3rd tier still have the ability to package 4 or 5 first rounders as an all-in move. Then there are teams like the Pelicans and Thunder who can acquire two stars with their trade capital.

I suspect the Bucks and Giannis have a mutual agreement that he can be asked to get traded to certain teams after 2 years. Giannis is not a jerk, and I can see both sides having the respect for each other to do something like that. Gives Giannis two years to make it work in Milwaukee, and gives the Bucks a better chance to recover if they stall.

 

[Knicks411]

The Rockets created a culture that gave James Harden all the power

For years, Houston considered it good business to do whatever James Harden wanted. Now the franchise is dealing with the fallout.

www.espn.com

“it’s an organized professional AAU team” that is the perfect description for the Rockets.

So my take on this article was the Rockets finally realized they're going to have to trade the guy and now are gonna bury him.

 

[jncuse]

So my take on this article was the Rockets finally realized they're going to have to trade the guy and now are gonna bury him.

The Rockets are such a mess. You trade Harden to rebuild, but then you have 2 future picks and 2 future swaps which make the rebuild much harder. The Westbrook trade really hurt them.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Thanks to Otto and Mike for their feedback:

I will be setting up a league later today, and here is what I am thinking.

- Yahoo
- Probably 8 teams, since I have not seen an abundance of interest.
- Head to Head each week. Score by Category. (10 categories?)
- Roster Size of 15, Play 10 each week, 5 on bench.
- Trades Allowed (One per Week).
- Waiver Claims Allowed (One per Week)

Any other feedback or interest let me know.

Any reason why more waiver claims wouldn't be allowed?

 

[Alsacs]

The Rockets are such a mess. You trade Harden to rebuild, but then you have 2 future picks and 2 future swaps which make the rebuild much harder. The Westbrook trade really hurt them.

If the Rockets were smart they would find a way to trade Harden in a 3 way deal with OKC where they get their picks back from OKC and whatever compensation they would get would go to OKC.

If this were an NBA movie like that Cleveland Browns NFL draft movie with Kevin Costner that is what would happen.

 

[Alsacs]

Any reason why more waiver claims wouldn't be allowed?

You guys should do an auction draft so if you want a certain player you can overpay for them.

 

[Melancer46]

While the FA market is down, the trade market has got more interesting. Teams seem quite willing to trade a bunch of picks to finish off their roster and many teams in that 2nd tier and 3rd tier still have the ability to package 4 or 5 first rounders as an all-in move. Then there are teams like the Pelicans and Thunder who can acquire two stars with their trade capital.

I suspect the Bucks and Giannis have a mutual agreement that he can be asked to get traded to certain teams after 2 years. Giannis is not a jerk, and I can see both sides having the respect for each other to do something like that. Gives Giannis two years to make it work in Milwaukee, and gives the Bucks a better chance to recover if they stall.

They don't really have to have an agreement on that anyways. If Giannis eventually wants out, Milwaukee will certainly appease him. It's just that now they're guaranteed to get a good offer for him. We're probably at least 3 years away from that potentially being a factor though if I had to guess. Woj was saying that part of the hold up for Giannis was that he hates that players sign these deals and then just ask for a trade later. If he signs a contract, he wants to fulfill it. But having said that, a few years from now, Jrue and Khris will be 33, Brook will be 35 (and probably gone by then if I had to guess), and the Bucks will have pretty much no cap flexibility (though Khris and Jrue could hypothetically be approaching free agency by then so maybe the Bucks could retool at that point).

Point being, we probably have a 3ish year window to win with the current core and then we'll have to see where things go from there.

Also, Giannis could have just signed a 2 year extension to buy him that flexibility to get out and then theoretically sign a 4 year deal in Dallas, Miami, etc. and he would have made essentially the same amount of money as he now will on the supermax, so he locked himself in long-term for really no reason other than because he wanted to be locked in.

 

[jncuse]

You guys should do an auction draft so if you want a certain player you can overpay for them.

The time factor of such a draft would be a concern, especially when I am not even sure if we can get a full league. I think you need an established league, to make that type of draft work.

 

[Knicks411]

They don't really have to have an agreement on that anyways. If Giannis eventually wants out, Milwaukee will certainly appease him. It's just that now they're guaranteed to get a good offer for him. We're probably at least 3 years away from that potentially being a factor though if I had to guess. Woj was saying that part of the hold up for Giannis was that he hates that players sign these deals and then just ask for a trade later. If he signs a contract, he wants to fulfill it. But having said that, a few years from now, Jrue and Khris will be 33, Brook will be 35 (and probably gone by then if I had to guess), and the Bucks will have pretty much no cap flexibility (though Khris and Jrue could hypothetically be approaching free agency by then so maybe the Bucks could retool at that point).

Point being, we probably have a 3ish year window to win with the current core and then we'll have to see where things go from there.

Also, Giannis could have just signed a 2 year extension to buy him that flexibility to get out and then theoretically sign a 4 year deal in Dallas, Miami, etc. and he would have made essentially the same amount of money as he now will on the supermax, so he locked himself in long-term for really no reason other than because he wanted to be locked in.

I could be wrong, but I thought he could only get the 35% supermax salary on the full 5 year deal. So he couldn't do an extension like that without giving up some money on an annual basis.

They basically have to keep Holiday now, so like you said, you've got the next 2-3 years where the team should absolutely be a contender. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up being traded in 2024 or something, but hey, thats a problem for 2024.

 

[Newhouser]

Dallas is not going to climb too high relying on KP.

 

[Melancer46]

I could be wrong, but I thought he could only get the 35% supermax salary on the full 5 year deal. So he couldn't do an extension like that without giving up some money on an annual basis.

They basically have to keep Holiday now, so like you said, you've got the next 2-3 years where the team should absolutely be a contender. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up being traded in 2024 or something, but hey, thats a problem for 2024.

You can get 35% after 8 years (or however long it's been so far plus 2; I've lost track). So if he signed a 2 year extension and then signed with another team, they could offer essentially the same deal (albeit 4 years instead of 5). Bleacher Report had an article basically saying after taxes, 2 years in Milwaukee + 4 years in Dallas/Miami = ~$150 million. The supermax + 1 more year in Milwaukee = ~$150-155 million.

 

[MikeSU02]

You cannot compare Lebron and Kawhi. (and you may not be). Lebron is a diva, but he is not a rollercoaster. Kawhi is a roller coaster.

Lebron puts in the work and leads the team in practice and dedication. Kawhi is about load management / practicing when he wants / skipping the odd practice / being a loner.

Kawhi already bailed on one team (San Antonio) and had teammates to a large extent bail on him (LAC last year). He is a risky proposition. When everything goes right it certainly can and has paid off, but it can go very poorly as well.

Kawhi worked in San Antonio and Toronto -- but they already had established and respected internal leadership structures that kept the team in check. They let him either just play, or lead on the court.

The Clippers did not have the proper established leadership structure to handle Kawhi last year and all the favours rubbed the supporting core the wrong way. I am not sure if it has changed enough this year. It helps that Paul George (I cheated on my coaches' daugther with a stripper and got the stripper pregnant) dynamic is no longer there. Serge Ibaka a respected veteran should also help in that regard.

Could the talent on the floor overcome the drama -- certainly it can, but it can also blow up. I give the Clippers a 20% chance of missing the playoffs this year. (Similar odds of winning it all to missing the playoffs)

I saw one poster above that said Kawhi is almost a guarantee to stay with the Clippers. Based on his history, I just see that as a really poor assertion to make. There are so many reasonable plausable scenarios with Kawhi -- win it all and stay, legit injury, non-legit injury, leave because he is not happy with others, ask to be traded.

And largely irrelevant to this -- I am amused by the fact that Kawhi thought it was fine to balance a 1 litre water gallon off his junk in front of teammates as part of an exercise routine

Kawhi has two chips. He has two finals MVPs. At the end of the day, you deal with that if you need to.

Here are the other two active players with multiple finals mvps: Bron and KD. Here are the other ex-players that have done it: Reed, KAJ, Magic, Bird, MJ, Dream, Timmy, Shaq and Kobe.

He moved heaven and earth to get back close to his home and it rubbed people the wrong way, so be it. Proof is in the pudding. He's not the first and certainly won't be the last, but he is one of the few to have a track record of hardware to allow it.

And those teammates that were complaining about him, are we talking Trez? Lou? Beverly? Who cares? The only untouchable player on that team is Kawhi. Maybe he isn't a leader, but he doesn't show up out of shape. He doesn't mail in games. He had to take on more ball handling duties bc all his other teammates were all talk and no substance.

They close on their 3-1 lead and then lose to the Lakers in the WCF, no one cares. If Doc wasn't so stubborn with Trez, they probably win that series and it's a whole different narrative.

 

[MikeSU02]

So my take on this article was the Rockets finally realized they're going to have to trade the guy and now are gonna bury him.

Why would you bury him before the trade though?

My take is that this info is all from people that have exited and can speak freely without worrying about the org being mad at them.

 

[Melancer46]

Why would you bury him before the trade though?

My take is that this info is all from people that have exited and can speak freely without worrying about the org being mad at them.

Maybe even from a certain GM that is trying to acquire him now and witnessed all of this firsthand?

 

[MikeSU02]

They don't really have to have an agreement on that anyways. If Giannis eventually wants out, Milwaukee will certainly appease him. It's just that now they're guaranteed to get a good offer for him. We're probably at least 3 years away from that potentially being a factor though if I had to guess. Woj was saying that part of the hold up for Giannis was that he hates that players sign these deals and then just ask for a trade later. If he signs a contract, he wants to fulfill it. But having said that, a few years from now, Jrue and Khris will be 33, Brook will be 35 (and probably gone by then if I had to guess), and the Bucks will have pretty much no cap flexibility (though Khris and Jrue could hypothetically be approaching free agency by then so maybe the Bucks could retool at that point).

Point being, we probably have a 3ish year window to win with the current core and then we'll have to see where things go from there.

Also, Giannis could have just signed a 2 year extension to buy him that flexibility to get out and then theoretically sign a 4 year deal in Dallas, Miami, etc. and he would have made essentially the same amount of money as he now will on the supermax, so he locked himself in long-term for really no reason other than because he wanted to be locked in.

He's also setting himself up in the East where the only other player on his level is KD, if he's coming back healthy and he's in his 14th year.

Bron, Luka, Kawhi are all in the West. Steph pending injury. AD and Jokic as well. Dame, maybe, if you think he's up there.

It's not like Tatum, Butler or Siakim are on his level. Simmons and Embiid? Eh...

He's in a great spot.