NBA Thread 2021-22 Season

[MikeSU02]

Yeah you are conflating my point a little though. My point was the value to the franchise not the player as ranked. I sort of was getting to the longevity aspect in my last post. I mean Melo goes to Detroit and wins 3 rings or so and also is the same HOF player he is now... he is looked at differently in the larger scheme ranking wise but that isnt the point i was driving at. In terms of a franchise that had nothing going for it- he was huge. Even if he never had two MVP years or best ever statistical years in the NBA.

Let's not also forget that 6-11 290 does a lot for you too when you have elite skills to go with. Anyways if Jokic can do it 6 more years even and not even win a ring but get them back to the wcfs a couple times then crown him sure. For now it's underselling Melo as to what he meant to Denver while there and after.

Melo is definitely underappreciated and undervalued. He led a legit turn around and got Denver into relevancy in the Western Conference. No doubt. That '09 WCF was a LOT closer than people remember and could have easily gone the Nuggets way. Also, I think the pettiness that George Karl is now resoundingly expressing is probably having people re-evaluate what his impact was on the team.

With all that said, if you are a Denver fan, and you have a guy that has finished 4th, 9th, 1st and now 1st again... this is your guy, imo. You know that if you have even a modicum of a decent roster around him you will be championship contending.

So, maybe fans are still holding Melo up because of the WCF trip and just turning the franchise around, but I think there is an argument that Jokic has taken that standing already and, if not, will very soon.

Melo was T14th in 04, T15th in 07, 13th in 08, 6th in 2010, 3rd in 2014 (but he was with the knicks at this point) in MVP races, just FYI.

 

[MikeSU02]

Hard to disagree. At the same time it's terrible what happened to Paul's family.

That being said there's rumors the Suns wanted to fight Luka after the game in the bowels of the arena. That's fckn crazy dumb sht, but we need some spice in some of these series and maybe we are getting it here.

I'm not sure I buy the wanting to right after the game. I saw that too and I just need to see more evidence. I wouldn't be surprised if that was just some Suns players yapping.

What happened with CP3's family is total BS. That kid/dude should be tossed and not allowed back in at all, ever. From what I heard, the Mavs fans in that area (which are the expensive seats) were telling the kid to because he was running his mouth all game and THEN put his hands on his family. Absolutely unacceptable and zero tolerance can be had.

My favorite spice is Luka just taking all these so-called awesome defenders and big boy-ing them on the block. I love that Luka runs his mouth, I do. I want to see all the smoke in these playoffs.

 

[Orangezoo]

Melo is definitely underappreciated and undervalued. He led a legit turn around and got Denver into relevancy in the Western Conference. No doubt. That '09 WCF was a LOT closer than people remember and could have easily gone the Nuggets way. Also, I think the pettiness that George Karl is now resoundingly expressing is probably having people re-evaluate what his impact was on the team.

With all that said, if you are a Denver fan, and you have a guy that has finished 4th, 9th, 1st and now 1st again... this is your guy, imo. You know that if you have even a modicum of a decent roster around him you will be championship contending.

So, maybe fans are still holding Melo up because of the WCF trip and just turning the franchise around, but I think there is an argument that Jokic has taken that standing already and, if not, will very soon.

Melo was T14th in 04, T15th in 07, 13th in 08, 6th in 2010, 3rd in 2014 (but he was with the knicks at this point) in MVP races, just FYI.

Yeah and I see that too. I think a couple more seasons and it's locked in for sure.

 

[MikeSU02]

What Luka is doing with that roster of players around him is pretty amazing.

Also, Kidd is doing a great job. Come back and coach the Lakers!

Yep, I'm a Luka fanboy, admittedly (along with Kawhi for non-Knicks), and he can get some blind spots when he's running that heliocentric offense that revolves around him a bit, but once he was in shape (and, again, that is on him for being out of shape at the start of the season) and once they booted KP and got Dinwiddie, this team has been a PROBLEM.

I don't think they have the talent in roster spots 2-15 to win a chip, but they basically have a lot of really solid players that if they even had just a legit #2 and bumped everyone down a rung, they could win it all (they need a legit center tho).

If the Mavs win the title somehow, it would be one of the most amazing chips in history. And would guess it would mean Luka averaged like a 35, 12, 12 for the rest of the playoffs.

Kidd apparently not only has learned some things from his previous stints, but he also apparently put together a really well-respected staff.

 

[MikeSU02]

Yeah and I see that too. I think a couple more seasons and it's locked in for sure.

Ya, just to be clear, I think Melo is underappreciated and undervalued for his whole career.

There are a lot of sliding door moments in his career that probably would have changed things tremendously:

- if he had been drafted by Detroit instead of Denver (he probably has a chip or two)

- if he had structured his contract differently to align with the Bron/Wade/Bosh timing (even if he didn't go to the Heat).

- if they somehow could have waited til FA to get Melo to sign with the Knicks instead of having to do the trade that gutted the team (I get this might not be realistic)

- if they get a few more bounces to go their way in 09 in the WCF and win that series. I bet they win that title against Orlando.

Two final things that if linear time was able to be changed, haha:
- If he gets drafted a year before or after LeBron, so he isn't constantly compared to him. He was never going to be better than Bron and it was never really fair to measure him against Bron.

- KD coming and just stealing all his thunder as most naturally gifted scoring forward in the league.

Those two guys both play his position, Bron was his year, and they just depressed the ability for people to properly evaluate Melo, imo. He was always graded on a curve. You can absolutely argue Bron is a top 3 player and you can argue that KD is a top 10 player of all time. Melo is insanely talented and very accomplished in his own rights, but he isn't a top 20 type guy of all time and it's like he's been a bit forgotten.

 

[Newhouser]

Joker is still chasing Dan Issel as the All-Time face of the Nuggets franchise, and David Thompson was still the best player to ever wear a Nugget uniform, though I love Joker, and appreciate his greatness.

 

[MikeSU02]

 

[Orangezoo]

Joker is still chasing Dan Issel as the All-Time face of the Nuggets franchise, and David Thompson was still the best player to ever wear a Nugget uniform, though I love Joker, and appreciate his greatness.

Thing is Issel and to a growing extent Thompson mean nothing to everyone except for only the most seasoned NBA and nugs fans. Not that I disagree.

 

[samspann1]

 

[samspann1]

Pop is the GOAT

 

[Knicks411]

I mean, Jokic has two MVPs and two of the best regular seasons of all time and has generally continued that play in the playoffs. Melo was simply never that level of player in the regular season or postseason. He’s a Hall of Famer but Jokic will be much higher in the all time rankings if he stays moderately healthy.

Yeah I kinda feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Jokic is just a much better player and is one of the most fun players ever to watch. The timing was a little tough, but I thought him not making the top 75 team was kinda ridiculous.

 

[Orangezoo]

Yeah I kinda feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Jokic is just a much better player and is one of the most fun players ever to watch. The timing was a little tough, but I thought him not making the top 75 team was kinda ridiculous.

As I said not comparing them the way some of you are taking it. Not sure there is any other way to clarify that other than to keep repeating myself.

All that said 7 years in the league and 4 great years leading them to thr playoffs and more. Naturally unless injury steps in the trajectory is clear. I think it's fair that it's an argument when he is just 27 at this point. I'm not contesting it's a no contest in 2 or 3 years.

Anyways the contrarian views on Melo to attack the perception of homerism get a bit too antsy sometimes on here too. He has had a great career, basically brought a franchise back to life and is a Hall of Famer. He isn't in the conversation with guys who are top 3 players in the league year over year. All that said Denver isn't sitting where they are at right now without the impact and momentum he helped establish. I mean we are talking a franchise that failed year after year in the draft.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Melo is definitely underappreciated and undervalued. He led a legit turn around and got Denver into relevancy in the Western Conference. No doubt. That '09 WCF was a LOT closer than people remember and could have easily gone the Nuggets way. Also, I think the pettiness that George Karl is now resoundingly expressing is probably having people re-evaluate what his impact was on the team.

With all that said, if you are a Denver fan, and you have a guy that has finished 4th, 9th, 1st and now 1st again... this is your guy, imo. You know that if you have even a modicum of a decent roster around him you will be championship contending.

So, maybe fans are still holding Melo up because of the WCF trip and just turning the franchise around, but I think there is an argument that Jokic has taken that standing already and, if not, will very soon.

Melo was T14th in 04, T15th in 07, 13th in 08, 6th in 2010, 3rd in 2014 (but he was with the knicks at this point) in MVP races, just FYI.

All I need to know about Karl: successful pro coach openly pined for the Carolina (his alma mater) job. Did not get a sniff.

 

[Knicks411]

As I said not comparing them the way some of you are taking it. Not sure there is any other way to clarify that other than to keep repeating myself.

All that said 7 years in the league and 4 great years leading them to thr playoffs and more. Naturally unless injury steps in the trajectory is clear. I think it's fair that it's an argument when he is just 27 at this point. I'm not contesting it's a no contest in 2 or 3 years.

Anyways the contrarian views on Melo to attack the perception of homerism get a bit too antsy sometimes on here too. He has had a great career, basically brought a franchise back to life and is a Hall of Famer. He isn't in the conversation with guys who are top 3 players in the league year over year. All that said Denver isn't sitting where they are at right now without the impact and momentum he helped establish. I mean we are talking a franchise that failed year after year in the draft.

I take your point. Melo was very good for Denver. No question.

Melo played 564 games for Denver, Jokic is at 527. (regular season. And Jokic is an iron man, and lost 26 games due to the pandemic, so it's really closer) Jokic has actually played more playoff games as a Nugget, 48 vs 45. Denver made one conf finals with Melo, and didn't win a round in any other season, Denver made the conf finals in 2020 and won 2 other playoff rounds in 19 and 21.

And on the court, it's not even close. Melo is an all star but Jokic is a 2 time MVP. Credit to Melo for digging them out of a huge hole (of course he had help, thats how this works, but he was the top guy) but I dunno, maybe the crazy pills was too much. But it's not like we're talking about 10 good-great seasons for one guy and 3 elite for the other. The volume is pretty close to even and the quality is a step above.

 

[Orangezoo]

I take your point. Melo was very good for Denver. No question.

Melo played 564 games for Denver, Jokic is at 527. (regular season. And Jokic is an iron man, and lost 26 games due to the pandemic, so it's really closer) Jokic has actually played more playoff games as a Nugget, 48 vs 45. Denver made one conf finals with Melo, and didn't win a round in any other season, Denver made the conf finals in 2020 and won 2 other playoff rounds in 19 and 21.

And on the court, it's not even close. Melo is an all star but Jokic is a 2 time MVP. Credit to Melo for digging them out of a huge hole (of course he had help, thats how this works, but he was the top guy) but I dunno, maybe the crazy pills was too much. But it's not like we're talking about 10 good-great seasons for one guy and 3 elite for the other. The volume is pretty close to even and the quality is a step above.

For sure. Everything is relative as well. Jokic has a massive mismatch because of his size every game except maybe a few teams. Melo size and athleticism size had really no real advantage. Now that is what is in making some players a step above the rest of course.

Jokic did join a franchise at a much different point and with much different expectations than say Melo did. Had Melo joined Detroit you could argue it could have elevated his game all around more and who knows. Again all relative random what if arguments.

Jokic is a rare player/Unicorn. He is what people expected of Porzingis to some extent. I love Jokics game and think he is great for the game. In 5 years at this rate he should get them a title. To me he is the natural evolution of a guy like Duncan now being an all around player vs just being a HOF mid post and post big

 

[OrangeDW]

Rudy……stop it.

 

[OrangeDW]

Hypothetical: guy on a 40 win team has all the best “nerd stats”. Is he winning MVP? Not saying Jokic is quite that.

But I kinda feel like that’s where things are headed.

 

[Knicks411]

Hypothetical: guy on a 40 win team has all the best “nerd stats”. Is he winning MVP? Not saying Jokic is quite that.

But I kinda feel like that’s where things are headed.

I don't think so. The closest we've really come is that year with Russ, and I wouldn't consider triple doubles to be a nerd stat in the way I assume you mean it. Mainly because I would contend it's basically impossible for a guy to rank that well in the advanced metrics and play for a team that wins low 40s. Not in the way it happens in baseball at least (Im sure someone can show me where I am wrong though) Also. I mean, Jokic averaged 27-14-8. I'd say those are usually the kind of traditional stats that get you the MVP but it had never been done before so hard to say.

I was just looking at the Denver stats; Aaron Gordon was second on the team in minutes. Solid player. Not great, but solid. Will Barton was third. Monte Morris 4th. Jeff Green 5th. Pretty brutal

 

[OrangeDW]

I don't think so. The closest we've really come is that year with Russ, and I wouldn't consider triple doubles to be a nerd stat in the way I assume you mean it. Mainly because I would contend it's basically impossible for a guy to rank that well in the advanced metrics and play for a team that wins low 40s. Not in the way it happens in baseball at least (Im sure someone can show me where I am wrong though)

I was just looking at the Denver stats; Aaron Gordon was second on the team in minutes. Solid player. Not great, but solid. Will Barton was third. Monte Morris 4th. Jeff Green 5th. Pretty brutal

Yeah, I know Denver was undermanned and Jokic had an amazing year and did all he could.

It just seems like 48-34 and getting knocked out in 5 games in round 1….it’s a pretty pedestrian season for a team with the MVP, regardless of the reason for it.

I remember when Carmelo had one of his best seasons ever (the year after the scoring title) while the Knicks flopped because everyone else sucked that year, and he got zero accolades. Not even an All NBA 3rd team.

 

[UpstateSM]

Giannis and the Bucks play unwatchable basketball. There has never been a superstar that is less enjoyable to watch. Get this series over with please.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Giannis and the Bucks play unwatchable basketball. There has never been a superstar that is less enjoyable to watch. Get this series over with please.

I don’t know, but it sure doesn’t seem fair that he’s playing on an 8 ft hoop while everyone else has to shoot at a 10’

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Both teams hitting shots now

 

[samspann1]

Where’s Timelord?

 

[samspann1]

Tito Santana would have been proud of that flying forearm by Giannis
.

Arriba!

 

[samspann1]

2 shot foul, right?