NBA Thread 2021-22 Season

[Cusefan0307]

Not saying I necessarily agree with any of this. This is just one algorithms take:

Which players were snubbed from the NBA's 75th Anniversary Team?

Based on The Bill Russell Scale, Dwight Howard should have made the NBA's 75th Anniversary Team list.

sports.yahoo.com

Biggest snubs, per The Russell Scale​

34. Dwight Howard (68.4)
53. Pau Gasol (60)
55. Tracy McGrady (59.3)
56. Tony Parker (58.8)
58. Chris Bosh (58.2)
63. LaMarcus Aldridge (56.8)
69. Chauncey Billups (55.4)
T71. Vince Carter, Bob Lanier (55.3)
74. Adrian Dantley (55)
75. Paul George (54.9)

Biggest surprises, per The Russell Scale​

135. Dennis Rodman
134. Bill Walton
120. Dave DeBusschere
118. Earl Monroe
113. Nate Thurmond
109. Pete Maravich
104. Wes Unseld
100. Lenny Wilkens
97. Dave Bing
89. Nate "Tiny" Archibald
79. James Worthy

Ehhh...Some of this looks too much like recency bias to me. I do agree Rodman and Walton don't belong on the list at all. Lots of politics with these types of lists, but I am not going to cry about Paul George or Chauncey Billups not making it.

 

[Eric15]

Ehhh...Some of this looks too much like recency bias to me. I do agree Rodman and Walton don't belong on the list at all. Lots of politics with these types of lists, but I am not going to cry about Paul George or Chauncey Billups not making this list.

Yeah I pretty much agree with all of that. I just can’t get my head around why Walton gets such an incredible benefit of the doubt for an abbreviated career but guys like Penny Hardaway or Grant Hill don’t.

 

[OrangeDW]

It's really almost indefensible not to have Dwight on there.

5 time first team all league! There are 20 guys in the history of the league who have made first team all NBA more times than Dwight. Not to make it a Melo thing exclusively, but Melo never made first team all league. He made second team just twice. Dwight made first team 5x! (Granted, maybe he benefitted from a lack of other great C, but 5X first team??)

I believe I read no members of the 50 at 50 team were left off this list, which seems...weird? I dunno

I don’t think Melo would be anywhere near the cut list really. Top 10 all time scorer. Competing with KD and LeBron for First team, when he was at his peak.

But yeah, Dwight probably should be there. Though if his prime was in the 90s, he never makes first or second team, and would have a dogfight to make 3rd team every year.

I think they’re holding it against him how much of a clown he was in the middle portion of his career.

I love him in his late career reinvention as a role player though.

 

[Alsacs]

Glad to see Paul Pierce wasn’t even close to the reaches that made this list.
History is treating him fairly.
Can’t wait for KG and Pierce have to pretend they are okay with Ray Allen at the ASG.

Pau Gasol and Dwight Howard are the missed.
Bill Walton good player but not better than either of those guys and Walton would probably admit it.

If none of the top 50 missed out then it explains why he made it.

Rodman as one of the top 25 added from 96 is kinda weird.

 

[Knicks411]

I don’t think Melo would be anywhere near the cut list really. Top 10 all time scorer. Competing with KD and LeBron for First team, when he was at his peak.

But yeah, Dwight probably should be there. Though if his prime was in the 90s, he never makes first or second team, and would have a dogfight to make 3rd team every year.

I think they’re holding it against him how much of a clown he was in the middle portion of his career.

I love him in his late career reinvention as a role player though.

I agree, not trying to save Melo should be out and Dwight in. Just that Dwight seems obviously qualified.

And it's a good point about the era; trying to compete with Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, and then Shaq would really hurt. I try to compare him and Ewing, for instance, if you swapped Howard on the mid 90s Knicks I can't imagine how bad he would look if they tried to run a million postups for him. But also, every era is different. He was a perfect fit for the Orlando team he was on, they could play the 4 shooters around him and he could get every rebound and protect the rim and they were a really good team for a bunch of years. He finished top 5 in the MVP 4 years in a row!

Not to pick on another SU guy, but like, Dave Bing? Yeah he scored a lot of points. But he was on bad teams. He played on the Pistons for the first 9 years of his career, they made the playoffs 3 times in those 9 years (twice with sub 500 records) and never won a playoff series. He scored points, but it wasn't like he scored a ton (top 5 in PPG twice) and the team wasn't any good. You can't convince me he was better than Dwight Howard. I won't have it!

 

[shandeezy7]

It's really almost indefensible not to have Dwight on there.

5 time first team all league! There are 20 guys in the history of the league who have made first team all NBA more times than Dwight. Not to make it a Melo thing exclusively, but Melo never made first team all league. He made second team just twice. Dwight made first team 5x! (Granted, maybe he benefitted from a lack of other great C, but 5X first team??)

I believe I read no members of the 50 at 50 team were left off this list, which seems...weird? I dunno

I think you hit on something there. He benefitted from an era when there really were no good centers at all. Him and Yao (plus end-of-career Shaq and for some reason Amar’e being labeled a C even though I'd call him a PF). Make those All-NBA teams position-less, and I bet you'd see less of Dwight and more of Melo, as it's wildly harder to make All-NBA as a F than a C, despite there being two forwards on each team. I mean just look at the 06-07 team. The forwards were Duncan, Dirk, Lebron, Bosh, Garnett and Melo. Insane talent.

 

[Eric15]

Not to belabor this but I still think Tracy McGrady should be on this list for what his accomplished between roughly 2000-2007. He was more or less a Top 5 player in the league for this stretch.

 

[OrangeDW]

Not to belabor this but I still think Tracy McGrady should be on this list for what his accomplished between roughly 2000-2007. He was more or less a Top 5 player in the league for this stretch.

There are certainly a number of guys on the list who if you asked yourself “who was a better basketball player, McGrady or so and so”...the answer is clearly McGrady. Right before LeBron came in the league and fully emerged, it was McGrady and Kobe neck and neck as the best wing players in the league.

He didn’t have the career he could’ve due to injuries - he was more or less washed up by age 30. But yeah, at his peak he was incredible.

 

[Newhouser]

I do think that with all the great players that have played in the history of the league, the list is pretty tight in that there are really only a couple of nitpicks and most would involved recent bias against guys I never saw play.

That said Dame should not be on.

 

[Alsacs]

I would take Vince Carter or Tracy McGrady over Damian Lillard all day long.
I didn’t even notice Damian was on the team till just now with these posts.

Good god what an awful pick.

He isn’t one of the top 25 players since 1996 that wasn’t on it.

Dwight got screwed if Dame made it.

 

[Alsacs]

Hell I would take Kyrie Irving from this generation before Dame.

 

[Cusefan0307]

If Vince and McGrady stayed with the Raptors they I believe eventually they would have won a title and been much better than most of those teams in the East from 2000 to 2007.

 

[Knicks411]

I would take Vince Carter or Tracy McGrady over Damian Lillard all day long.
I didn’t even notice Damian was on the team till just now with these posts.

Good god what an awful pick.

He isn’t one of the top 25 players since 1996 that wasn’t on it.

Dwight got screwed if Dame made it.

Dame may be a bit of a recency bias, but the guy is a stud. he's made all NBA 1x, and 2nd team 4x.

to me, Dame > Vince is pretty easy, Vince made second team 1x and third team 1x. Dame is way ahead of him based on all league stuff and is still adding to his legacy. Vince's best MVP finish was 10th. Dame has finished higher than that 5x, and like i said, is still adding to.

T-Mac is a different story, he was a better player than Vince at his peak. I can hear the T-Mac argument.

 

[MikeSU02]

 

[OrangeDW]

Hell I would take Kyrie Irving from this generation before Dame.

I wouldn’t. Kyrie has played 100 less games even though he’s been in the league a year longer, has been a complete malcontent in multiple seasons, and averages less ppg, less apg. Dame stays on the court, and has been a reliable leader for his franchise.

All NBA :
Kyrie - 2nd team once and 3rd team twice
Dame - 1st team once, 2nd team 4 times, and 3rd team once.

6 times to 3 times is significant, especially when they play and peak in the exact same era.

 

[Knicks411]

I wouldn’t. Kyrie has played 100 less games even though he’s been in the league a year longer, has been a complete malcontent in multiple seasons, and averages less ppg, less apg. Dame stays on the court, and has been a reliable leader for his franchise.

All NBA :
Kyrie - 2nd team once and 3rd team twice
Dame - 1st team once, 2nd team 4 times, and 3rd team once.

6 times to 3 times is significant, especially when they play and peak in the exact same era.

The only scenario I'm taking Kyrie over Dame is if I also get Kyrie's teammates over the last decade instead of Dame's. Unless I'm misreading BBref (very possible!) Kyrie has never even placed in MVP voting once in his whole career. (Julius Randle, for reference, placed last year)

For further color, in the years Dame finished second team all NBA, here are the guys who finished above him and the guy who made second team with him

15-16: Steph and Russell Westbrook (Chris Paul second team)
18-19: Harden and Steph (to be fair, Kyrie made second team this year)
19-20: Harden and Luka (Chris Paul second team)
20-21: Steph and Luka (Chris Paul second team)

He's being beaten out by all time greats (well, there was the one Westbrook year...) and he's generally on a second team with another all time great. The guy is consistently in the company of legendary players

 

[Cusefan0307]

Kyrie without Lebron would be sht.

 

[OrangeDW]

Kyrie without Lebron would be sht.

Yup. He’s never done much without him.

Talent wise, you can argue he’s better than Dame. Heck, you can argue he’s better than Steph talent wise. And in a given game or even a series, he can play to that. But long term, he either can’t stay healthy, or can’t maintain things without issues sidetracking things.

 

[Eric15]

Why is Reggie Miller in the Top 75 a foregone conclusion? 5x All-Star, three All-NBA third team appearances. Didn’t finish in the Top 10 of MVP voting a single time in his career. Career numbers of 18/3/3. I mean that’s solid but ehhhh.

I feel like his career resume is inflated by iconic/memorable moments.

 

[OrangeDW]

Why is Reggie Miller in the Top 75 a foregone conclusion? 5x All-Star, three All-NBA third team appearances. Didn’t finish in the Top 10 of MVP voting a single time in his career. Career numbers of 18/3/3. I mean that’s solid but ehhhh.

I feel like his career resume is inflated by iconic/memorable moments.

Agree 100%.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I am not a fan of James Worthy being on the list.

 

[MikeSU02]

Dame is a lock.

Dwight should be on. TMac should be on. Klay should be on. Kyrie should probably be on it as well.

The fact that all the 50 at 50 made it is a joke.

Honestly, if Shaq was on the 50, they actually should have had more recent guys on that list.

All of the ‘73 Knicks? Parish? Bing? Etc etc.

Luka has 2x first team NBAs in a stacked league.

 

[Knicks411]

Yeah I pretty much agree with all of that. I just can’t get my head around why Walton gets such an incredible benefit of the doubt for an abbreviated career but guys like Penny Hardaway or Grant Hill don’t.

I think the why is fairly easy; whether or not you buy it is a different story. Walton won an MVP (and finished second the year prior, the year they won the title) and a title. The Blazers, when he was healthy, were unbelievable. It also probably doesnt hurt he was a legendary college player as well.
Hill and Penny, as good as they were, were never the best player in the league, and they never anchored a title team.

Dame is a lock.

Dwight should be on. TMac should be on. Klay should be on. Kyrie should probably be on it as well.

The fact that all the 50 at 50 made it is a joke.

Honestly, if Shaq was on the 50, they actually should have had more recent guys on that list.

All of the ‘73 Knicks? Parish? Bing? Etc etc.

Luka has 2x first team NBAs in a stacked league.

I was debating this with my friend, he thought Luka might sneak on the list. He basically had one fewer season than Shaq did when he was voted in. I think Jokic should've made it as well.

 

[Knicks411]

I am not a fan of James Worthy being on the list.

Worthy to me, is like a lesser Chris Bosh or Parker/Ginobili. A good player who won a lot of rings. I dont really think he should sniff this list either. 2 all NBA teams, both third. Only placed in MVP voting once, 12th. Finals MVP does help.

Why is Reggie Miller in the Top 75 a foregone conclusion? 5x All-Star, three All-NBA third team appearances. Didn’t finish in the Top 10 of MVP voting a single time in his career. Career numbers of 18/3/3. I mean that’s solid but ehhhh.

I feel like his career resume is inflated by iconic/memorable moments.

I feel like I'm legally obligated, as a Knicks fan raised in the 90s, to agree, but I read a really good case supporting Reggie a few years ago. Made me re-think things.

Backpicks GOAT: #29 Reggie Miller

Key Stats and Trends Historically good combination of scoring volume and efficiency Unrivaled improvement in the postseason, driving elite team offenses Fantastic consistency for more than a decade…

backpicks.com

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Why is Reggie Miller in the Top 75 a foregone conclusion? 5x All-Star, three All-NBA third team appearances. Didn’t finish in the Top 10 of MVP voting a single time in his career. Career numbers of 18/3/3. I mean that’s solid but ehhhh.

I feel like his career resume is inflated by iconic/memorable moments.

I mean, that last part is a pretty big deal though.