NBA Thread 2022-23 Season

[Melancer46]

I remember an interview with Shane Battier where he said that when he started understanding the analytics that it basically ruined all the creativity he had in his game.

That’s kinda how it looks on the court too. I get that 3’s and dunks are easily the best shots but basketball was a lot more aesthetically pleasing when you had guys working the mid-range, playing through the post, etc. and I enjoyed the variety of systems that teams had. It feels like pretty much every team besides the Lakers are just trying to get as many 3’s/early shots up as possible nowadays.

 

[OrangeDW]

I was talking to a friend last night about the state of the league. Feels like both talent wise and game planning wise, the league has never been better. And yet it feels like the on court product is as bad as it’s been in my lifetime (31 years). I think analytics has harmed basketball in a way that it hasn’t really done with any other sport to this point (at least any sport I closely follow) and the BS tactics that the league has allowed to fester (constant flopping, moving screens, the whining, and just the lack of caring about the regular season) has made it so hard to watch in so many ways.

The flopping/moving screens/whining/attempts to manipulate the rules are just the worst.

And in terms of analytics - I think there’s too many 3’s, and when guys drive and pass up a likely layup to pass out for a 3….eh. Too often the shot selection looks like what dorks used to do on NBA Live.

I miss balanced scoring. The early 10’s were the sweet spot for me. I liked GS back then too and they were a big part of “the sweet spot”, but once they ascended, everything eventually went haywire.

I’d hold the 2003 Orangemen up of what an ideal offensive approach in college b-ball would be to me. Multiple 3 point shooters, multiple slashers who could get to the rim, guys who could hit the mid range jumper and hit mid range floaters, guys who could post up and score on the low block, and many good passers. It obviously helps that Melo checked basically everyone of those boxes, but that was a team with tremendous balance. It was pretty basketball when we were playing well.

Consider though….we took 15 3’s per game and made 5. The 2014 Spurs took 21 3’s per game.

To me, 15-20 is the sweet spot. Last year’s Warriors shot 43 3’s per game. It’s just not as fun to watch. 1980s ball when everything was in the paint wouldn’t cut it for me either. Give me balance!

 

[OrangeDW]

I remember an interview with Shane Battier where he said that when he started understanding the analytics that it basically ruined all the creativity he had in his game.

Yeah. Players games had “personality”.

Now? Not so much. The wings who don’t handle the ball are pretty much all the same guy, more or less. If they don’t make enough catch and shoot 3’s, they’re shuffled out for the next guys that play the exact same game. As are the bigs. They all just set screens and rim run. None of them have any “moves”.

 

[MikeSU02]

Garnett is a Top 25 player of all time but his personality always annoyed me. He would always pick fights with players a foot shorter than him his entire career. And the Ray Allen thing is so weird. Its not like KG didn’t seek greener pastures multiple times in his career.

I don’t think he’s top 25, but appreciate how good he is.

The Cs got lucky that it was before Brons real apex.

It’s still a chip, but Duncan >>>>>>> KG.

 

[MikeSU02]

I remember an interview with Shane Battier where he said that when he started understanding the analytics that it basically ruined all the creativity he had in his game.

Creativity = charges?

JK.

But I hate Duke still.

 

[MikeSU02]

The flopping/moving screens/whining/attempts to manipulate the rules are just the worst.

And in terms of analytics - I think there’s too many 3’s, and when guys drive and pass up a likely layup to pass out for a 3….eh. Too often the shot selection looks like what dorks used to do on NBA Live.

I miss balanced scoring. The early 10’s were the sweet spot for me. I liked GS back then too and they were a big part of “the sweet spot”, but once they ascended, everything eventually went haywire.

I’d hold the 2003 Orangemen up of what an ideal offensive approach in college b-ball would be to me. Multiple 3 point shooters, multiple slashers who could get to the rim, guys who could hit the mid range jumper and hit mid range floaters, guys who could post up and score on the low block, and many good passers. It obviously helps that Melo checked basically everyone of those boxes, but that was a team with tremendous balance. It was pretty basketball when we were playing well.

Consider though….we took 15 3’s per game and made 5. The 2014 Spurs took 21 3’s per game.

To me, 15-20 is the sweet spot. Last year’s Warriors shot 43 3’s per game. It’s just not as fun to watch. 1980s ball when everything was in the paint wouldn’t cut it for me either. Give me balance!

The 2014 spurs played the most beautiful basketball I’ve ever seen.

Then they won a finals series where there were two HoF coaches and 8 total HoFers on the floor.

 

[OrangeDW]

The 2014 spurs played the most beautiful basketball I’ve ever seen.

Then they won a finals series where there were two HoF coaches and 8 total HoFers on the floor.

Yup! And the 2013 finals are probably the best finals I’ve ever seen.

 

[Eric15]

I don’t think he’s too 25, but appreciate how good he is.

The Cs got lucky that it was before Brons real apex.

It’s still a chip, but Duncan >>>>>>> KG.

30th PER, 5th VORP, 24th OWS, 7th DWS, 19th MVP shares. He's been both an MVP and DPOY. Tons of All-Star and All-NBAs. I just don't see how that doesn't translate into Top 25. I have him in the 20-25 range. And I don't even like the guy.

And I mean, I have Duncan ahead of KG also. Duncan is like fringe Top 10.

 

[MikeSU02]

Yup! And the 2013 finals are probably the best finals I’ve ever seen.

I actually rewatched 2013 a bit and 2014.

It’s insane basketball.

IMO, nothing like it has really ever been touched.

 

[MikeSU02]

30th PER, 5th VORP, 24th OWS, 7th DWS, 19th MVP shares. He's been both an MVP and DPOY. Tons of All-Star and All-NBAs. I just don't see how that doesn't translate into Top 25. I have him in the 20-25 range. And I don't even like the guy.

And I mean, I have Duncan ahead of KG also. Duncan is like fringe Top 10.

It’s a fair argument, but PER wildly leans towards bigs and that was NBA basketball forever.

Top 40? Sure. Top 25 I think is too high for a guy that, imo, didn’t really elevate his teammates like Timmy did.

And DPOY, eh. Timmy never won DPOY which is hysterical. Give me apex Kawhi or Pippen on D over KG.

Also, please remember I hate the Celtics. Haha.

I was at their HoF induction. He gave a great speech.

 

[Eric15]

It’s a fair argument, but PER wildly leans towards bigs and that was NBA basketball forever.

Top 40? Sure. Top 25 I think is too high for a guy that, imo, didn’t really elevate his teammates like Timmy did.

And DPOY, eh. Timmy never won DPOY which is hysterical. Give me apex Kawhi or Pippen on D over KG.

Also, please remember I hate the Celtics. Haha.

I was at their HoF induction. He gave a great speech.

I'm giving you a like for the HOF induction speech which is awesome. But we definitely have to agree to disagree on KG.

 

[OrangeDW]

Creativity = charges?

JK.

But I hate Duke still.

It’s not his fault, but Battier ruined Dick Vitale for me. That man lost his damn mind for some damn Battier.

 

[shandeezy7]

The flopping/moving screens/whining/attempts to manipulate the rules are just the worst.

And in terms of analytics - I think there’s too many 3’s, and when guys drive and pass up a likely layup to pass out for a 3….eh. Too often the shot selection looks like what dorks used to do on NBA Live.

I miss balanced scoring. The early 10’s were the sweet spot for me. I liked GS back then too and they were a big part of “the sweet spot”, but once they ascended, everything eventually went haywire.

I’d hold the 2003 Orangemen up of what an ideal offensive approach in college b-ball would be to me. Multiple 3 point shooters, multiple slashers who could get to the rim, guys who could hit the mid range jumper and hit mid range floaters, guys who could post up and score on the low block, and many good passers. It obviously helps that Melo checked basically everyone of those boxes, but that was a team with tremendous balance. It was pretty basketball when we were playing well.

Consider though….we took 15 3’s per game and made 5. The 2014 Spurs took 21 3’s per game.

To me, 15-20 is the sweet spot. Last year’s Warriors shot 43 3’s per game. It’s just not as fun to watch. 1980s ball when everything was in the paint wouldn’t cut it for me either. Give me balance!

A tear came to my eye earlier this year when watching a Blazers game and our own Jerami Grant - still one of the most athletic players on the planet - drifted out to the three point line on a 2 on 1 fast break. It was sickening to watch.

 

[MikeSU02]

A tear came to my eye earlier this year when watching a Blazers game and our own Jerami Grant - still one of the most athletic players on the planet - drifted out to the three point line on a 2 on 1 fast break. It was sickening to watch.

Problem is the analytics say get points at the rim. 2 on 1 - should be points at the rim.

 

[OrangeDW]

A tear came to my eye earlier this year when watching a Blazers game and our own Jerami Grant - still one of the most athletic players on the planet - drifted out to the three point line on a 2 on 1 fast break. It was sickening to watch.

This is the part of the discussion where I always go find the “Syracuse Dunk Tape” on YouTube.

 

[SWC75]

Amen

I recall, years ago listening to a Dolph Schayes interview in which he was asked why modern day, (it was the 80's or 90's), was lower scoring than it was in the late 50's and 60's, even though shooting percent ages were higher. Dolph: "It's because we played defense back then! If a guy tried to drive to the basket, he'd wind up on his ass. They don't play defense today!"

Therew as no follow-up question. A good one would have been to point out that that doesn't explain the anomaly: if shooting percentages are higher, shouldn't scores be higher, too?

My explanation would be because defense got better, due to increases in the size and mobility of players playing on the same size court. It had become harder to get off a good shot in the half-court, with more offense coming off of defensive plays: steals, block and rebounds leading fast breaks, lay-ups, dunks and open jumpers.

 

[SWC75]

I remember an interview with Shane Battier where he said that when he started understanding the analytics that it basically ruined all the creativity he had in his game.

I was at the Syracuse Mets game last night. I always bring something to read between innings, (harder to do these days with the speeded-up game). I had the Sports Illustrated baseball preview issue. In an article on Seattle's Julio Rodriguez and his potential impact on the marketability of the game, (think a young Willie Mays), they discuss the impact of analytics on the game.

"Since 2007, the game's attendance apex, baseball has lost 14.9 million ticket buyers in the regular season and 5.3 million World Series viewers. A changing broadcast and entertainment marketplace contributed to the erosion. But so did a brutally efficient but dreadfully slow, risk-adverse style of percentage-driven baseball. From 2007 to 2022, the average game grew 12 minutes with 5.5 fewer balls put into play. As technology gave people more options at their fingertips, baseball operated under a backwards business strategy: it kept giving people less action over more time...

Action and fan interest eroded in lockstep. From 2007 to last season, the information-based style removed 5,302 hits, 623 stolen base attempts and 25 batting average points form the game. Strikeouts went up 8,823. The 2018 season marked the first time in baseball history strikeouts outnumbered hits. it has remained that way ever since."

https://www.si.com/mlb/2023/03/22/julio-rodriguez-is-the-star-mlb-needs-daily-cover

 

[shandeezy7]

Problem is the analytics say get points at the rim. 2 on 1 - should be points at the rim.

Yup but you wouldn’t know it the way these guys play the game sometimes.

 

[Day2]

I know Simmons is a hated character around here but he did bring up a good point on this morning's podcast. If the Celtics complete this comeback the difference between them and the '04 Red Sox is the NBA equivalent of the 2004 Cardinals is not waiting for the C's. I don't care if they have the homecourt edge Denver should be favored.

What does that even mean? The 2004 Cardinals won 105 games that year.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Nick Nurse to the Sixers. Huge upgrade.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

I was at the Syracuse Mets game last night. I always bring something to read between innings, (harder to do these days with the speeded-up game). I had the Sports Illustrated baseball preview issue. In an article on Seattle's Julio Rodriguez and his potential impact on the marketability of the game, (think a young Willie Mays), they discuss the impact of analytics on the game.

"Since 2007, the game's attendance apex, baseball has lost 14.9 million ticket buyers in the regular season and 5.3 million World Series viewers. A changing broadcast and entertainment marketplace contributed to the erosion. But so did a brutally efficient but dreadfully slow, risk-adverse style of percentage-driven baseball. From 2007 to 2022, the average game grew 12 minutes with 5.5 fewer balls put into play. As technology gave people more options at their fingertips, baseball operated under a backwards business strategy: it kept giving people less action over more time...

Action and fan interest eroded in lockstep. From 2007 to last season, the information-based style removed 5,302 hits, 623 stolen base attempts and 25 batting average points form the game. Strikeouts went up 8,823. The 2018 season marked the first time in baseball history strikeouts outnumbered hits. it has remained that way ever since."

https://www.si.com/mlb/2023/03/22/julio-rodriguez-is-the-star-mlb-needs-daily-cover

Judge doesn't even have this deal that Julio Rodriguez has.

Front Office Sports on LinkedIn: Seattle Mariners star Julio Rodriguez is now sponsored by an entire… | 16 comments

Seattle Mariners star Julio Rodriguez is now sponsored by an entire airline — Alaska Airlines. For every home run he hits in Seattle, 44 fans in the section… | 16 comments on LinkedIn

www.linkedin.com

 

[Eric15]

To me, 15-20 is the sweet spot. Last year’s Warriors shot 43 3’s per game. It’s just not as fun to watch. 1980s ball when everything was in the paint wouldn’t cut it for me either. Give me balance!

I love watching old games on NBATV from back in the day. Honestly, it's almost like a different sport 30 years ago. I think I watched a Lakers/Bulls Finals game where there literally wasn't a three-point attempt in the first quarter. And then when you watch games pre-three-point shot (e.g. old SU games involving Pearl), it is absolutely not the same sport.

 

[Day2]

Amen

A mid-‘80s Celtics/Lakers game is a horrible example. The late ‘80s Pistons changed how defense was played, then Riley turned it up a notch with the Knicks in the ‘90s.

 

[UpstateSM]

I think Tatum’s cooked that was bad

 

[OrangeDW]

I love watching old games on NBATV from back in the day. Honestly, it's almost like a different sport 30 years ago. I think I watched a Lakers/Bulls Finals game where there literally wasn't a three-point attempt in the first quarter. And then when you watch games pre-three-point shot (e.g. old SU games involving Pearl), it is absolutely not the same sport.

Yeah, it changed enormously from the early to the mid 90s in that regard, especially when they moved the line in a bit. Attempts basically doubled from like 91 to 95.