NBA Thread 2022-23 Season

[Eric15]

There have been a total of five 30/20/10 playoff games in NBA history. Joker has three of them.

I feel like most sports fans are way too married to the idea that the “greatest centers of all time“ list is set in stone. This dude could be the center GOAT a decade from now. He’s literally just entering his prime at age 28.

 

[MikeSU02]

There have been a total of five 30/20/10 playoff games in NBA history. Joker has three of them.

He’s going to be a first ballot HoFer. He’s going to be discussed with all the great bigs and players overall.

Murray should be glad he got a ticket.

 

[MikeSU02]

The Ringer's NBA Free Agency Tracker — The Offer Sheet

Your one-stop shop for all of the latest on the most intriguing players of the 2023 offseason.

nbarankings.theringer.com

 

[shandeezy7]

He’s going to be a first ballot HoFer. He’s going to be discussed with all the great bigs and players overall.

Murray should be glad he got a ticket.

Jokic has won 5 career playoff games without Murray. I’d say he has more than a ticket.

 

[SWC75]

There have been a total of five 30/20/10 playoff games in NBA history. Joker has three of them.

I feel like most sports fans are way too married to the idea that the “greatest centers of all time“ list is set in stone. This dude could be the center GOAT a decade from now. He’s literally just entering his prime at age 28.

NBA Net Points, 2022-23

Here is my annual listing of the top NBA Players as measured by “Net Points”: Points + Rebounds + Assists + Steals + Blocks minus Missed Field Goals + Missed Free Throws + Turnovers + Personal Fouls. I’ve always ranked the players by their gross totals, rather than their averages. I figure a...

syracusefan.com

 

[Melancer46]

A couple things on the Chris Paul sweepstakes that I feel like people are glossing over/missing entirely:

• Bill Simmons has been talking a lot about how Phoenix could trade CP3's $30 million for a good player and then the team acquiring CP3 and just waive him and pay the $16 mil guaranteed portion and save the rest. This loophole was closed in the current CBA (not the new one, but the one that's currently active); only the guaranteed portion counts in trades. So the acquiring team can send back $16ish million OR opt to guarantee CP3's full contract and then send out $30 mil.
• Chris Paul's contract has offset language in it, so if Phoenix does waive him, it doesn't make any financial sense for him to sign elsewhere for more than the minimum (unless it's more than $16 mil, which feels unlikely given the financial positions of other contending teams).

 

[Knicks411]

A couple things on the Chris Paul sweepstakes that I feel like people are glossing over/missing entirely:

• Bill Simmons has been talking a lot about how Phoenix could trade CP3's $30 million for a good player and then the team acquiring CP3 and just waive him and pay the $16 mil guaranteed portion and save the rest. This loophole was closed in the current CBA (not the new one, but the one that's currently active); only the guaranteed portion counts in trades. So the acquiring team can send back $16ish million OR opt to guarantee CP3's full contract and then send out $30 mil.
• Chris Paul's contract has offset language in it, so if Phoenix does waive him, it doesn't make any financial sense for him to sign elsewhere for more than the minimum (unless it's more than $16 mil, which feels unlikely given the financial positions of other contending teams).

For the first one I figured that was the case because the trade wouldnt officially be completed until after the new league year and and his contract would have to be guaranteed before that date, but that's not the case. But good to know I was right about that but for the wrong reason.

The second one I didnt know that is interesting. Basically if he's waived and doesnt come back to the Suns then he may as well just sign with whoever he really wants to play with for the vet min. (which would bring the Clippers into play, at least theoretically)

Another one I heard yesterday from Bobby Marks was if he's stretched, they can stretch his salary over 5 seasons, not 3. So they would owe him about $3 million for each of the next 5 years. I am honestly not clear if that is because 1) if they do it prior to the end of this league year, he technically still has 2 years left on the deal (2022-23 and 2023-24) or 2) somehow the non guaranteed 24-25 season allows them to say he has 2 years left. I think its 1.

 

[MikeSU02]

A couple things on the Chris Paul sweepstakes that I feel like people are glossing over/missing entirely:

• Bill Simmons has been talking a lot about how Phoenix could trade CP3's $30 million for a good player and then the team acquiring CP3 and just waive him and pay the $16 mil guaranteed portion and save the rest. This loophole was closed in the current CBA (not the new one, but the one that's currently active); only the guaranteed portion counts in trades. So the acquiring team can send back $16ish million OR opt to guarantee CP3's full contract and then send out $30 mil.
• Chris Paul's contract has offset language in it, so if Phoenix does waive him, it doesn't make any financial sense for him to sign elsewhere for more than the minimum (unless it's more than $16 mil, which feels unlikely given the financial positions of other contending teams).

If he just wants to win a chip, he should maybe roll the dice with the clips or the lakers (if it can all work).

Just going to throw this out there and someone on the pod, I think, brought it up, but if he went to the Spurs, that would be very interesting.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Sounds like the Suns think they may be able to get Harden.

 

[MikeSU02]

Jokic has won 5 career playoff games without Murray. I’d say he has more than a ticket.

He's the #2 guy on offense next to an all timer. He will likely make a few all star teams. He has a career average of 16ppg in the regular season, lately 20ppg. He steps up in the playoffs, for sure.

Aaron Gordon is more important than him on the defensive end, KCP, etc.

I really like Murray, but what are we doing here? His best accolade in the nba is second team all rookie.

PER on the Nugs this year:
Jokic: 31.5
Gordon: 19.5
Jamal: 18.0

TS%:
Jokic: 70% (ARE YOU KIDDING ME)
Jamal: 57% (less than Gordon)

Win shares:
Jokic: 14.9
Jamal: 5.1 (less than Gordon)

Box +/-:
Jokic: 13.0
Jamal: 1.3 (less than Gordon)

VORP:
Jokic: 8.8
Jamal: 1/8 (again, less than Gordon)

Buy the ticket, take the ride.

There is a legitimate argument that Gordon is the second most valuable player on the Nugs.

 

[Cusefan0307]

He's the #2 guy on offense next to an all timer. He will likely make a few all star teams. He has a career average of 16ppg in the regular season, lately 20ppg. He steps up in the playoffs, for sure.

Aaron Gordon is more important than him on the defensive end, KCP, etc.

I really like Murray, but what are we doing here? His best accolade in the nba is second team all rookie.

PER on the Nugs this year:
Jokic: 31.5
Gordon: 19.5
Jamal: 18.0

TS%:
Jokic: 70% (ARE YOU KIDDING ME)
Jamal: 57% (less than Gordon)

Win shares:
Jokic: 14.9
Jamal: 5.1 (less than Gordon)

Box +/-:
Jokic: 13.0
Jamal: 1.3 (less than Gordon)

VORP:
Jokic: 8.8
Jamal: 1/8 (again, less than Gordon)

Buy the ticket, take the ride.

There is a legitimate argument that Gordon is the second most valuable player on the Nugs.

A lot of advanced stats tend to value bigs greater than guards. I don’t disagree that Gordon has been great(especially on defense), but the Nuggets have no other ball handling guards or wings besides Murray.

They also were swept and gentlemanly swept the last two years without Murray and with Gordon in the lineup. I think you’re undervaluing him a bit.

 

[shandeezy7]

A lot of advanced stats tend to value bigs greater than guards. I don’t disagree that Gordon has been great especjally on defense, but the Nuggets have no other ball handling guards or wings besides Murray.

They also were swept and gentlemanly swept the last two years without Murray and with Gordon in the lineup. I think you’re undervaluing him a bit.

Exactly. How'd it work out last year with Gordon and no Murray? To act like he's not incredibly valuable to the Nuggets success is crazy talk. I'm not arguing that he's a top 10 guard in the league, but clearly the Nuggets aren't winning squat without him.

 

[MikeSU02]

A lot of advanced stats tend to value bigs greater than guards. I don’t disagree that Gordon has been great especjally on defense, but the Nuggets have no other ball handling guards or wings besides Murray.

They also were swept and gentlemanly swept the last two years without Murray and with Gordon in the lineup. I think you’re undervaluing him a bit.

He's a good player that plays very good in the playoffs and gets to do so because he's playing with a generational talent.

Not a HoFer. Maybe will sneak into a few all star games.

I think that's what he is.

 

[Cusefan0307]

He's a good player that plays very good in the playoffs and gets to do so because he's playing with a generational talent.

Not a HoFer. Maybe will sneak into a few all star games.

I think that's what he is.

If they were to win 2-3(not saying they will) he will get in.

James Worthy and Dennis Johnson made it from the Lakers and Celtics in the 80's. Those guys were lucky to play with Bird and Magic.

 

[Knicks411]

If they were to win 2-3(not saying they will) he will get in.

James Worthy and Dennis Johnson made it from the Lakers and Celtics in the 80's. Those guys were lucky to play with Bird and Magic.

I take your point but I'll defend DJ here. He was a 4 time all star, won a finals MVP, made a first team all NBA, second team, and 5 first team all defense teams before he joined Boston. Certainly playing with Boston helped his profile though, so like I said, i follow your point. Worthy is a guy who really did benefit from his team.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I take your point but I'll defend DJ here. He was a 4 time all star, won a finals MVP, made a first team all NBA, second team, and 5 first team all defense teams before he joined Boston. Certainly playing with Boston helped his profile though, so like I said, i follow your point. Worthy is a guy who really did benefit from his team.

Draymond is going to make it too. He wouldn’t have made it anywhere else unless he played with Lebron.

Ginobili is another one you could argue.

And I know he was one of the first Euro’s to be a good player, but Vlade Divac made it a couple years ago.

The Hall of fames in all sports are more watered down than we admit.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Sounds like the Suns think they may be able to get Harden.

Lol but why would they want that?

 

[Knicks411]

Draymond is going to make it too. He wouldn’t have made it anywhere else unless he played with Lebron.

Ginobili is another one you could argue.

And I know he was one of the first Euro’s to be a good player, but Vlade Divac made it a couple years ago.

The Hall of fames in all sports are more watered down than we admit.

Yes the other thing I was going to say is the bar for the HOF is pretty low, so saying Murray is a HOF probably isn't quite as impressive as it seems.

I honestly have no memory of Vlade making the hall. I get that it is a basketball HOF, not just an NBA HOF, but man.

 

[Newhouser]

Here is what we know about Murray that we don't know about Dame, Mitchell, Fox, or a ton of other guards -----he is balling in the NBA Finals. Is he fortunate enough to play with an all timer...sure, but you could say that about every second option paired with a legend. The fact that Denver hasn't won without him also shows value. He is clearly their second most important player.

 

[MikeSU02]

If they were to win 2-3(not saying they will) he will get in.

James Worthy and Dennis Johnson made it from the Lakers and Celtics in the 80's. Those guys were lucky to play with Bird and Magic.

Not good comparisons at all.

Big Game James has a Finals MVP, 7 all stars, 2 all nbas.

DJ, seriously? Just take a look below.

• 3× NBA champion (1979, 1984, 1986)
• NBA Finals MVP (1979)
• 5× NBA All-Star (1979–1982, 1985)
• All-NBA First Team (1981)
• All-NBA Second Team (1980)
• 6× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1979–1983, 1987)
• 3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1984–1986)

 

[Cusefan0307]

Not good comparisons at all.

Big Game James has a Finals MVP, 7 all stars, 2 all nbas.

DJ, seriously? Just take a look below.

• 3× NBA champion (1979, 1984, 1986)
• NBA Finals MVP (1979)
• 5× NBA All-Star (1979–1982, 1985)
• All-NBA First Team (1981)
• All-NBA Second Team (1980)
• 6× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1979–1983, 1987)
• 3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1984–1986)

Ehhh we aren't going to agree here and that's ok.

4 Celtic players made the HOF on those teams. I don’t dispute DJ was good before he got there, but he wasn't making the hall without his time with the Celtics and having 4 HOF'ers on one team no matter how good you are is a bit ridiculous to me.

The Worthy awards are interesting. If you look at the All NBA teams it appears there's be quite a bit of Laker bias going on. He made it over Dominique in 90 because the Lakers were the better team, but Dominique had the much better season across the board.

In 91 he was 44th in the league in PER and 26th in Win Shares. Scottie Pippen was by most stats was the 2nd or third best forward in the league that year and did not make any All NBA team or All Star game.

Magic was the best player for the Lakers in the 88 Finals. That award comes off as we are sick of giving finals MVP to Magic so lets just give it to the next best player who had 36 with a triple double in the last game.

I also don't think we have seen the best of Murray yet.

 

[MikeSU02]

Ehhh we aren't going to agree here and that's ok.

4 Celtic players made the HOF on those teams. I don’t dispute DJ was good before he got there, but he wasn't making the hall without his time with the Celtics and having 4 HOF'ers on one team no matter how good you are is a bit ridiculous to me.

The Worthy awards are interesting. If you look at the All NBA teams it appears there's be quite a bit of Laker bias going on. He made it over Dominique in 90 because the Lakers were the better team, but Dominique had the much better season across the board.

In 91 he was 44th in the league in PER and 26th in Win Shares. Scottie Pippen was by most stats was the 2nd or third best forward in the league that year and did not make any All NBA team or All Star game.

Magic was the best player for the Lakers in the 88 Finals. That award comes off as we are sick of giving finals MVP to Magic so lets just give it to the next best player who had 36 with a triple double in the last game.

I also don't think we have seen the best of Murray yet.

That's all fair. To argue against myself, I'll say this: I do think if Murray didn't get hurt, he would prob have caught one all star already.

I also think him being fully healthy for a full year will put him at an all star level, or at least strongly considered.

And, if they hold on the 1 or 2 seed again next year, he'll probably get the benefit of the doubt that some other guys may have otherwise gotten.

To be clear, if he averages like a 25, 8, 5 in the Finals, I don't care who you are playing with, that's a baller. That's getting it done on the biggest stage.

He is more than welcome to come to the Knicks.

 

[shandeezy7]

Draymond


That's all fair. To argue against myself, I'll say this: I do think if Murray didn't get hurt, he would prob have caught one all star already.

I also think him being fully healthy for a full year will put him at an all star level, or at least strongly considered.

And, if they hold on the 1 or 2 seed again next year, he'll probably get the benefit of the doubt that some other guys may have otherwise gotten.

To be clear, if he averages like a 25, 8, 5 in the Finals, I don't care who you are playing with, that's a baller. That's getting it done on the biggest stage.

He is more than welcome to come to the Knicks.

A Brunson/Murray backcourt could be a lot of fun on offense, but it probably wouldn't be too pretty on defense.

 

[Melancer46]

If he just wants to win a chip, he should maybe roll the dice with the clips or the lakers (if it can all work).

Just going to throw this out there and someone on the pod, I think, brought it up, but if he went to the Spurs, that would be very interesting.

I was thinking maybe a team in the Midwest with Giannis and a need for a PG that can be a floor general.

 

[Knicks411]

Hollinger has a story on the athletic today about, showing how his career playoff numbers stack up very favorably compared to a lot of great players.

Not endorsing the take (he doesnt even really have a take), just pointing it out since we were talking about Murray