ND AD Says D1 Breakup is Inevitable

[Cheriehoop]

I find it highly unlikely any of the "charities" that are funneling money into NIL recruiting would pay a player as an employee and be subject to employment regulations, as well as the employer portion of social security and medicare taxes.

Interesting article. Scary if states themselves will be the regulatory enforcement on these NIL deals. Political targeting and uneven enforcement between states.

The NCAA may not be the biggest NIL enforcement body this year. It's the IRS.

The NCAA might not penalize schools or athletes for breaking NIL "rules"...but the IRS might!

www.extrapointsmb.com

 

[WoadBlue]

Exactly. That’s why IMO, if an entire of smaller, academic institutions are left out of the pay for play league, those schools should do everything possible to reinforce the concept of athletics tied to education. They don’t have to go full Ivy League mode, but make it clear that these are students first, with athletic scholarships. Not professional athletes.

That will mean actually holding academic standards. Not rigged standards. Not even Ivy League basketball does that anymore.

 

[WoadBlue]

That won't be allowed. The semi-pro division members will want "all or nothing" for football, both basketballs, and baseball/softball in order to protect their investment. That would also cut out Duke.

Except that they know how valuable the best basketball is. The total lack of value in the G League highlights the point. If you have a new D1 AAA that starts with the SEC and Big Ten and Notre Dame and SC, and you ad enough other schools to make it workable, any basketball that also is D1 AAA is going to be even more valuable than current D1 basketball.

So I think that those driving this bus will want to make this be a division not of 30 or 40 teams, but of 60 or perhaps a few more. They are going to want to maximize that basketball value, and that means they are going to prefer being able to take Kanas thought KU always will be a detriment in football. They want the UNC-Dook rivalry because it is the biggest in the sport. They should know that they need Syracuse because it has the largest basketball fan base in the northeast.

There is hope in the ACC surviving this blow up of the NCAA if those doing it really want basketball to be as profitable for them as it could be. And that will mean them not going full semi-pro.

 

[WoadBlue]

Those people were clueless or intentionally ignorant. I and others said this is nearly exactly what would happen. And I'm no insider.

Yep. I also opposed all such calls for 'paying' players because I knew that it would lead to a mess that could destroy college sports.

The old system worked for athletes if they wanted a free education with free room and board and free books and a bit of spending money. If they did not want that free education, they should stay away from universities.

 

[David321]

I still think the other P4 conferences should just freeze out the SEC somehow. Voila, problem solved.

 

[WoadBlue]

You need to put UVa and ND in the "No" group because the "play for pay" division will not require players to go to class and that's a mile-wide Red Line that won't be crossed by either. UVa football no longer has the boosters willing to write big checks that basketball has. There was one, but he died. It took a really long while for an anonymous alum to put up $40M toward the new football building, while Paul Tudor Jones readily stepped forward with his checkbook to build the b-ball arena.

I'm not 100% sold on UCLA, Purdue, or Wisconsin as being in the "play for pay" division, especially if the players don't have to go to class.

This new top division is going to want ND badly. And ND boosters are going to want to be in the top football division badly.

 

[WoadBlue]

I still think the other P4 conferences should just freeze out the SEC somehow. Voila, problem solved.

The BT is as bad as the SEC.

 

[baggerbob]

Except that they know how valuable the best basketball is. The total lack of value in the G League highlights the point. If you have a new D1 AAA that starts with the SEC and Big Ten and Notre Dame and SC, and you ad enough other schools to make it workable, any basketball that also is D1 AAA is going to be even more valuable than current D1 basketball.

So I think that those driving this bus will want to make this be a division not of 30 or 40 teams, but of 60 or perhaps a few more. They are going to want to maximize that basketball value, and that means they are going to prefer being able to take Kanas thought KU always will be a detriment in football. They want the UNC-Dook rivalry because it is the biggest in the sport. They should know that they need Syracuse because it has the largest basketball fan base in the northeast.

There is hope in the ACC surviving this blow up of the NCAA if those doing it really want basketball to be as profitable for them as it could be. And that will mean them not going full semi-pro.

Unfortunately the SEC doesn't care about basketball, and they never have. Sure you have a school like Kentucky.
On the Women's side South Carolina,
Tennessee, and now LSU.
But for the average SEC fan football is all that exists.

 

[All4SU]

That will mean actually holding academic standards. Not rigged standards. Not even Ivy League basketball does that anymore.

What a novel idea. Let’s bring it back.

 

[Willy75]

Great thread. Personally I have no sympathy for the schools (and its governing body the NCAA) or fans who are bummed that the players, who create the product, are now getting rewarded in a real way.. This train has been barreling down on the system for years, and blame falls on the greed, egos, and incompetence of the adults who sat idle and did nothing except to cry "woe is me, the glory of college sports is ruined forever". Pleeeeeaaaassse - this has been a big business since the 70's at least for everyone but the players. The UNC scandal outed the fraud of the "free education" piece, and the players and their handlers are now demanding more. The gravy train is over and schools need to decide what they are and then fans will have to do the same self-assessment.

The earlier post on gambling was on the mark - the sport is thriving because of the gambling involved. Reduced interest in live sports, lack of even competition, time commitment, costs, are all having a much bigger negative impact on the sport than the "I refuse to support it because now it's professional crowd". To me that is faux outrage that I don't understand.

Not sure how it plays out but I have been pretty solid in saying that in 20 years SU's football and sports programs outside of basketball look more like Colgate than Clemson.

Private Alliance
Boston College (MA)
Syracuse (NY)
Pittsburgh (PA)
Northwestern (IL)
Notre Dame (IN)
Duke (NC)
Wake Forest (NC)
Vanderbilt (TN)
Miami (FL)
Tulane (LA)
Baylor (TX)
TCU (TX)

Pitt went public in the 1960’s. You could slide SMU in their place.

 

[Willy75]

Agree with your whole post. I love SU sports because 1)I grew up there, and 2)I did both my undergrad and grad work at SU. Still, my greatest love for SU has to do, not with sports, but the education I received and how it affected my career and thus my life. I may have Ernie Davis' autograph on my desk but the diploma on my wall is more meaningful.

College basketball is fast becoming the equivalent of the Syracuse Chiefs...aren't they the Syracuse Mets now?...or perhaps even a A or AA team. By that, I mean that the roster turns over at an accelerated rate as does a minor league baseball roster. Players who stay in one place for 4 years are becoming dinosaurs.

My grand-niece competed in a sport at SU. They got shockingly little funding and in fact the women had to pay for a number of things out of their own pockets. But they loved their sport and were all excellent students. My grand-niece got her degree from The Maxwell School. There is a kind of purity in that which has long since left the "money sports" and will evaporate entirely before long.

Even if SU does not end up falling into the "pro league" of universities, they will still be impacted. The times, they are a' changing as Bob Dylan so eloquently described bigtime college athletics...or perhaps he was referring to other things. He has always been kind of vague on that in those few (no) occasions when he and I have actually spoken.

Maybe I’m naïve but I think the Olympic sports and lacrosse will turn out ok. I could also easily support football in a private school league. Basketball is a mess structurally.

 

[CousCuse]

Syracuse football is still a very valuable asset. It has a large regional appeal and has been built by fan support from the region who see it as part of their national identity. If it is de-emphasized by the university, that support and value will evaporate.

 

[TheCusian]

There's space between SEC/B1G paying players to not attend classes level and Ivy level. Just where that line is will be very important for each institution.

I personally think that paying players a portion of what they've earned from TV revenue is fair. But we're dealing with scrupulous actors who've shown no ability to do what's best for the sport, only for themselves.

It's a mess.

 

[Dick_in_MI]

Syracuse football is still a very valuable asset. It has a large regional appeal and has been built by fan support from the region who see it as part of their national identity. If it is de-emphasized by the university, that support and value will evaporate.

I think you might be overstating it a bit. The 5 year average attendance for SU football puts us at #62 nationally and about 35K per game. Yes, that 35K is affected by the pandemic but #62 is still #62. Not to say that it is not a valuable asset but whether it is valuable enough to switch to a purely professional approach to our sports is another matter entirely. Lots of schools will feel that their football program is a valuable asset. Many of those schools attract bigger crowds than we do. However, depending upon where the line in the sand is drawn, they will have their own decisions to make.

And by the way, it won’t involve “de-emphasizing by the university”. It will involve staying where we are instead of moving entirely to a model of pro sports at an educational institution. I know some fans and alums would be in favor of that move; I am not sure whether the University would be.

 

[donniesyracuse]

But we're dealing with scrupulous actors who've shown no ability to do what's best for the sport, only for themselves.

Do you mean “unscrupulous?”

 

[CousCuse]

I think you might be overstating it a bit. The 5 year average attendance for SU football puts us at #62 nationally and about 35K per game. Yes, that 35K is affected by the pandemic but #62 is still #62. Not to say that it is not a valuable asset but whether it is valuable enough to switch to a purely professional approach to our sports is another matter entirely. Lots of schools will feel that their football program is a valuable asset. Many of those schools attract bigger crowds than we do. However, depending upon where the line in the sand is drawn, they will have their own decisions to make.

And by the way, it won’t involve “de-emphasizing by the university”. It will involve staying where we are instead of moving entirely to a model of pro sports at an educational institution. I know some fans and alums would be in favor of that move; I am not sure whether the University would be.

Syracuse football has always competed at the highest level, if that level becomes semipro, I'm not sure how the regional fans and supporters will view it. Also, Syracuse has had fantastic attendance in light of how poor the team has been over the last 2 decades.

 

[Todoubled23]

They are betting ( ) that gambling will be the factor that maintains, or increases, interest among fans like us.

It's possible that they're right, at least in the short term--increases in viewership of major sports events this most recent season may be attributed in some measure to the gambling factor, especially where in-game wagers are part of the equation.

Gotta love people's degenerate sides. Humans are great at taking losing propositions and taking on additional risk for the small chances of hitting it big. Even though we'd all be better off taking the 2/1 bets everytime. Behavioral psychology is amazing.

 

[elimunelson]

I think you might be overstating it a bit. The 5 year average attendance for SU football puts us at #62 nationally and about 35K per game. Yes, that 35K is affected by the pandemic but #62 is still #62. Not to say that it is not a valuable asset but whether it is valuable enough to switch to a purely professional approach to our sports is another matter entirely. Lots of schools will feel that their football program is a valuable asset. Many of those schools attract bigger crowds than we do. However, depending upon where the line in the sand is drawn, they will have their own decisions to make.

And by the way, it won’t involve “de-emphasizing by the university”. It will involve staying where we are instead of moving entirely to a model of pro sports at an educational institution. I know some fans and alums would be in favor of that move; I am not sure whether the University would be.

I think that's right Dick. The school will not search out a port for this professional arrangement. It'll remain seated and hope other like minded schools decide to do the same and create something new that jives with their mission as an academic school.

I just wonder the breakaway pro schools. not sure this will ultimately work either. I have my doubts there's a demand for your school to become minor leagues.

 

[WoadBlue]

Unfortunately the SEC doesn't care about basketball, and they never have. Sure you have a school like Kentucky.
On the Women's side South Carolina,
Tennessee, and now LSU.
But for the average SEC fan football is all that exists.

You are way behind the times. I suggest that you learn about SEC basketball coach salaries today, not from 1990. The SEC has what it wants for football, and now it is acting to make its basketball as well funded as BT basketball.

 

[MSOrange]

 

[sutomcat]

Sadly, I don’t think there is anything left to protect.

Mark has left everything burn to the ground. Nice.

 

[Hoo's That]

This new top division is going to want ND badly. And ND boosters are going to want to be in the top football division badly.

While they may want ND badly, it's unlikely they'll get them. ND is against paying the players as employees and wants the players to be required to attend class. While there is a faction of fans on their hard-core board that wants ND to follow the SEC to the new paradigm, even they know and admit in their posts on the board that the administration Will. Not. Do. That. because it's the total antithesis of what Father Hesburgh made Notre Dame into, a school that has a football team instead of the other way around. Before Father Hesburgh, yeah, ND would go with the new paradigm in a heartbeat. After him, no way. Their administration has no problem with being a perennial favorite in "the academic league" and a goodly portion of their donors agree.

 

[CousCuse]

While they may want ND badly, it's unlikely they'll get them. ND is against paying the players as employees and wants the players to be required to attend class. While there is a faction of fans on their hard-core board that wants ND to follow the SEC to the new paradigm, even they know and admit in their posts on the board that the administration Will. Not. Do. That. because it's the total antithesis of what Father Hesburgh made Notre Dame into, a school that has a football team instead of the other way around. Before Father Hesburgh, yeah, ND would go with the new paradigm in a heartbeat. After him, no way. Their administration has no problem with being a perennial favorite in "the academic league" and a goodly portion of their donors agree.

Do you think they can fill up their huge stadium of get lucrative TV deals or huge alumni boosters gifts if they are playing in a glorified Ivy league? The Ivy league at one time WAS college football and they decided to de-emphasize it and now are not even considered D-1.

 

[Hoo's That]

Except that they know how valuable the best basketball is. The total lack of value in the G League highlights the point. If you have a new D1 AAA that starts with the SEC and Big Ten and Notre Dame and SC, and you ad enough other schools to make it workable, any basketball that also is D1 AAA is going to be even more valuable than current D1 basketball.

So I think that those driving this bus will want to make this be a division not of 30 or 40 teams, but of 60 or perhaps a few more. They are going to want to maximize that basketball value, and that means they are going to prefer being able to take Kanas thought KU always will be a detriment in football. They want the UNC-Dook rivalry because it is the biggest in the sport. They should know that they need Syracuse because it has the largest basketball fan base in the northeast.

There is hope in the ACC surviving this blow up of the NCAA if those doing it really want basketball to be as profitable for them as it could be. And that will mean them not going full semi-pro.

WRT basketball, if I'm Bama, or LSU or Texas putting up big bucks to pay for football, basketball, and baseball/softball in the semi-pro division, I'll be damned if I'm going to let Duke get away with just paying a fraction of what I'm putting out to just their basketball players. Besides, all the OADs and 5-stars are going to the semi-pro division (their line of thinking). Yes, Duke-UNC is a big rivalry in the present paradigm, but who says that another rivalry, like Oklahoma-Texas just to pick out two teams, can't be just as intense in the new paradigm? It's more than 9 miles, but it's just as vehement.

 

[Hoo's That]

Do you think they can fill up their huge stadium of get lucrative TV deals or huge alumni boosters gifts if they are playing in a glorified Ivy league? The Ivy league at one time WAS college football and they decided to de-emphasize it and now are not even considered D-1.

Yes, because they're Notre Dame. The t-shirts will still say "20XX National Champions" and won't feature the asterisk to indicate "of a lesser division than before". They're not just "a school" or "a football team", they're a concept. The academic and athletic donors give to Notre Dame because of what Notre Dame represents. They were "nothing to write home about"-to-terrible between 1956 and 1964, when they hired Ara Parseghian, but people still stuck by them.