Notre Dame / ACC

[bpo57]

It's not so much conference champ vs non (though that does mean something). It's 12 > 11.

So if you won 12 but played a bunch of cupcakes you should get in over somebody that won 11 against high caliber competition?

 

[KaiserUEO]

So if you won 12 but played a bunch of cupcakes you should get in over somebody that won 11 against high caliber competition?

When you order a steak at a restaurant, do you tell them how you like it??

Or do you hope they get it right??

They may take your request and still get it wrong, but what way do you feel more comfortable with your order???

 

[TheCusian]

So if you won 12 but played a bunch of cupcakes you should get in over somebody that won 11 against high caliber competition?

That's a lovely hypothetical. But the 4 conferences that have conference title games typically have as good of or better wins as the Big 12, ND, or BYU. It's usually a close call, so tie goes to the team playing a 12th game vs high caliber competition who then becomes a conference champ.

 

[TerryD]

It is nice to see so many people concerned with ND's best interests and well being...

My theory is that an ACC champ will almost always have to be undefeated like FSU and Clemson to get into the playoffs (see last two years).

If FSU or Clemson had one loss in the last two seasons, they would have been out of the playoffs, conference membership or championship game notwithstanding.

So.....ACC membership would not really help ND that much after all, especially when it has to give up the things it likes about independence.

Full membership would help the other ACC schools more than it would help ND. I don't see any reason for ND to join for football.

 

[SmilinBob]

It is nice to see so many people concerned with ND's best interests and well being...

My theory is that an ACC champ will almost always have to be undefeated like FSU and Clemson to get into the playoffs (see last two years).

If FSU or Clemson had one loss in the last two seasons, they would have been out of the playoffs, conference membership or championship game notwithstanding.

So...ACC membership would not really help ND that much after all, especially when it has to give up the things it likes about independence.

Full membership would help the other ACC schools more than it would help ND. I don't see any reason for ND to join for football.

I agree that the one loss ACC team would be on the outside but you add a quality team like ND to the equation it makes the whole conference stronger in reality and perception. The biggest problem are the pundits and the propaganda they spew out and this would help. That said, I firmly believe that the ACC doesn't need ND in reality but the beauty contest BS that is college football kind of messes with that.

 

[TheCusian]

It is nice to see so many people concerned with ND's best interests and well being...

My theory is that an ACC champ will almost always have to be undefeated like FSU and Clemson to get into the playoffs (see last two years).

If FSU or Clemson had one loss in the last two seasons, they would have been out of the playoffs, conference membership or championship game notwithstanding.

So...ACC membership would not really help ND that much after all, especially when it has to give up the things it likes about independence.

Full membership would help the other ACC schools more than it would help ND. I don't see any reason for ND to join for football.

Yeah - that's a decent theory and one that holds some weight. I think the real value is the 12th game. It puts you at an advantage over any Big 12 school. So you're looking at a 1-loss Clemson ACC champ at 12-1 vs a 1-loss Big 12 camp team at 11-1. Plus with the addition of ND the perceived value of an ACC championship gains more weight. There's no doubt that being a champion of a conference is greater than not and is weighted with the committee (as they've stated).

Perception of the ACC is changing too. It's winning games vs the SEC and winning NC's. Coaching just improved across the board.

 

[Hoo's That]

Does ND get all the Fiesta money to themselves ?

Yes, they do under their agreement with the ACC because it's not coming from any ACC bowl slot allocation. They get money if they are invited to play the ACC rep in the Orange Bowl, but, IIRC, it's less than if someone else gets that OB bid.

 

[Alsacs]

It is nice to see so many people concerned with ND's best interests and well being...

My theory is that an ACC champ will almost always have to be undefeated like FSU and Clemson to get into the playoffs (see last two years).

If FSU or Clemson had one loss in the last two seasons, they would have been out of the playoffs, conference membership or championship game notwithstanding.

So...ACC membership would not really help ND that much after all, especially when it has to give up the things it likes about independence.

Full membership would help the other ACC schools more than it would help ND. I don't see any reason for ND to join for football.

If Clemson had lost in September to Louisville and finished 12-1 they would have gotten in most likely over Stanford. Unlike Florida State from a year ago Clemson was number #1 when undefeated not #3.

Clemson would have ended the year with 3 top #10 wins ND, FSU, UNC and a conference title. That was going to get them in the CFB playoff over Stanford. Only Michigan State has 2 top 10 wins. Most years the ACC will need to be undefeated but if they schedule strongly and win games they will get in with 1 loss.


The thing nobody is talking about is how the SEC was awful this year from its previous high standard. If anyone but Bama had won the SEC title they weren't getting in this year.

 

[SmilinBob]

Alsacs...what if Clemson lost to NC? That late loss foolishness thing the pundits/voters do might have bounced Clemson and of course NC wasn't quite good enough according to them.

 

[Alsacs]

Alsacs...what if Clemson lost to NC? That late loss foolishness thing the pundits/voters do might have bounced Clemson and of course NC wasn't quite good enough according to them.

Stanford as Conference Champion should have gotten in over UNC and Clemson. Clemson because they weren't conference champion. UNC because their schedule was weaker.

Clemson with a regular season loss and 3 top 10 wins gets in over Stanford. If UNC had a better schedule I think they would have gotten in over Stanford. UNC passed the eye test they just didn't have the resume.

 

[TerryD]

Stanford as Conference Champion should have gotten in over UNC and Clemson. Clemson because they weren't conference champion. UNC because their schedule was weaker.

Clemson with a regular season loss and 3 top 10 wins gets in over Stanford. If UNC had a better schedule I think they would have gotten in over Stanford. UNC passed the eye test they just didn't have the resume.

Stanford has two losses, so substitute Iowa or Ohio State. Would a one loss Clemson have beaten them out?

 

[KaiserUEO]

Stanford has two losses, so substitute Iowa or Ohio State. Would a one loss Clemson have beaten them out?

i say clemson still does.

but we can play these games forever.

who did they lose to? fla st? lville? nd? Syracuse??

and when.

the committee has 'told' us these things so far...

1. they like undefeated teams
2. they like conference game champions
3. they like 1 loss teams

if anyone is meeting 2 of the 3 criteria so far...they are in.

8 teams in...only 1 school has met only 1 of the above 'laws'...okie.

and okie wouldve been out if stanford had 1 loss.

nd better meet 'law 1' because only meeting 'law 3'...is a pretty risky proposition.

 

[Alsacs]

Stanford has two losses, so substitute Iowa or Ohio State. Would a one loss Clemson have beaten them out?

Iowa beat 1 top 25 team Northwestern.

Ohio State beat 1 top 25 team Michigan. Ohio State's 2nd best win is against 7-5 Penn State. They lost at home to Michigan State without Connor Cook. They are living on last year's resume 100%.

If Clemson lost to Louisville they would have had 3 top 10 wins and a conference title.

Clemson gets in all day. With the conference title this debate isn't even close.
If Florida State had beaten UNC in the ACC title game and not lost to Clemson they would have gotten in over a non-B1G team champ. with wins over Clemson/UNC/Florida even with their loss to Ga. Tech.

You aren't giving the ACC any credit if you think a non-B1G champ with 1 loss gets in over a 1 loss ACC champ.

The ACC has 3 top 10 teams. The Big Ten has 3 top 10 team. The SEC 1, The Pac-12 1, Big XII 1 and ND.

The conference was pretty good this year.

 

[Alsacs]

i say clemson still does.

but we can play these games forever.

who did they lose to? fla st? lville? nd? Syracuse??

and when.

the committee has 'told' us these things so far...

1. they like undefeated teams
2. they like conference game champions
3. they like 1 loss teams

if anyone is meeting 2 of the 3 criteria so far...they are in.

8 teams in...only 1 school has met only 1 of the above 'laws'...okie.

and okie wouldve been out if stanford had 1 loss.

nd better meet 'law 1' because only meeting 'law 3'...is a pretty risky proposition.

Stanford got screwed if you ask me.

They played 9 conference games. Same as Oklahoma
They played two top 13 teams in OOC. Northwestern and Notre Dame. Oklahoma played #25 Tennessee
Stanford played an extra game.
So because Stanford played Northwestern when they didn't need too and lost they got knocked out.

If Oklahoma wasn't as dominant as they looked and passed the eye test I would have put Stanford 4th over a 1 loss Big XII champion. Oklahoma was worthy though.

 

[bpo57]

When you order a steak at a restaurant, do you tell them how you like it??

Or do you hope they get it right??

They may take your request and still get it wrong, but what way do you feel more comfortable with your order???

Ya lost me there.

 

[bpo57]

That's a lovely hypothetical. But the 4 conferences that have conference title games typically have as good of or better wins as the Big 12, ND, or BYU. It's usually a close call, so tie goes to the team playing a 12th game vs high caliber competition who then becomes a conference champ.

"Typical". There have been numerous times in history when "power" conferences" have been weak. or scheduling quirks exist- look at UNC and Iowa this year who both did not have to play some of the powers in their conference. To simply state 12>11 is foolish imo.

 

[bpo57]

Yeah - that's a decent theory and one that holds some weight. I think the real value is the 12th game. It puts you at an advantage over any Big 12 school. So you're looking at a 1-loss Clemson ACC champ at 12-1 vs a 1-loss Big 12 camp team at 11-1. Plus with the addition of ND the perceived value of an ACC championship gains more weight. There's no doubt that being a champion of a conference is greater than not and is weighted with the committee (as they've stated).

Perception of the ACC is changing too. It's winning games vs the SEC and winning NC's. Coaching just improved across the board.

You evaluate a lot of this from a static point of view. For all you know the format could switch to eight teams not too far down the road. Also the Big 12 could change and have a conference championship game. That said, sure didn't hurt OU this year. They were in b4 a conference championship game wasn't even played.

 

[bpo57]

If Clemson had lost in September to Louisville and finished 12-1 they would have gotten in most likely over Stanford. Unlike Florida State from a year ago Clemson was number #1 when undefeated not #3.

Clemson would have ended the year with 3 top #10 wins ND, FSU, UNC and a conference title. That was going to get them in the CFB playoff over Stanford. Only Michigan State has 2 top 10 wins. Most years the ACC will need to be undefeated but if they schedule strongly and win games they will get in with 1 loss.


The thing nobody is talking about is how the SEC was awful this year from its previous high standard. If anyone but Bama had won the SEC title they weren't getting in this year.

That's the point. Every year crazy things can happen. No power conference champ is guaranteed anything. Look at Stanford.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Ya lost me there.

if you like and want your steak medium-well...order it that way, dont sit around and hope it comes out that way.

if you want to make the P5, finish with 0 or 1 loss and win your champ game...dont sit around and hope you get invited.

 

[bpo57]

Iowa beat 1 top 25 team Northwestern.

Ohio State beat 1 top 25 team Michigan. Ohio State's 2nd best win is against 7-5 Penn State. They lost at home to Michigan State without Connor Cook. They are living on last year's resume 100%.

If Clemson lost to Louisville they would have had 3 top 10 wins and a conference title.

Clemson gets in all day. With the conference title this debate isn't even close.
If Florida State had beaten UNC in the ACC title game and not lost to Clemson they would have gotten in over a non-B1G team champ. with wins over Clemson/UNC/Florida even with their loss to Ga. Tech.

You aren't giving the ACC any credit if you think a non-B1G champ with 1 loss gets in over a 1 loss ACC champ.

The ACC has 3 top 10 teams. The Big Ten has 3 top 10 team. The SEC 1, The Pac-12 1, Big XII 1 and ND.

The conference was pretty good this year.

The conference was top heavy. The rest of it was pretty mediocre.

 

[bpo57]

if you like and want your steak medium-well...order it that way, dont sit around and hope it comes out that way.

if you want to make the P5, finish with 0 or 1 loss and win your champ game...dont sit around and hope you get invited.

Evaluate the entire body of work. Strength of schedule matters. You shouldn't benefit from playing cupcakes. Or else you have what happened to FSU last year. Scraped by against a bunch of mediocre teams then got drilled in the F4. They were clearly the weakest team in the field.

 

[Hoo's That]

Stanford got screwed if you ask me.

They played 9 conference games. Same as Oklahoma
They played two top 13 teams in OOC. Northwestern and Notre Dame. Oklahoma played #25 Tennessee
Stanford played an extra game.
So because Stanford played Northwestern when they didn't need too and lost they got knocked out.

If Oklahoma wasn't as dominant as they looked and passed the eye test I would have put Stanford 4th over a 1 loss Big XII champion. Oklahoma was worthy though.

I still don't get this love affair with "9 conference games". The Big XII does it because they only have 10 teams, so they can, and the Pac-12 does it to get through the rotation of teams in the other division faster. So freakin' what?!?!?! We'll continue to play 8 if 3-5-5 comes in. So freakin'what?!?!?! If conferences want to institute an FCS ban, please try to act like an adult and come out and say, "We want to ban games against FCS teams." (Which is easier for the western teams to say since they don't have all those little brothers standing hat in hand on their doorsteps.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Evaluate the entire body of work. Strength of schedule matters. You shouldn't benefit from playing cupcakes. Or else you have what happened to FSU last year. Scraped by against a bunch of mediocre teams then got drilled in the F4. They were clearly the weakest team in the field.

and schools shouldnt benefit from not playing a champ game.

simple as that.

 

[TheCusian]

"Typical". There have been numerous times in history when "power" conferences" have been weak. or scheduling quirks exist- look at UNC and Iowa this year who both did not have to play some of the powers in their conference. To simply state 12>11 is foolish imo.

Sure. I'll give you that. You can be scheduled out of some match ups and miss one of the best teams.

But. Wait.

That 12th game gives you an almost guaranteed top 25 match up to win the conference. ND will never have that as an independent.

 

[TheCusian]

You evaluate a lot of this from a static point of view. For all you know the format could switch to eight teams not too far down the road. Also the Big 12 could change and have a conference championship game. That said, sure didn't hurt OU this year. They were in b4 a conference championship game wasn't even played.

Yeah change changes things.

The year before a 1 loss Big 12 team got knocked out by a conference champion after the games were played and they sat idle.